Timken Clutch Release bearing, NV5600

[bcbender]

I'd suggest you go with the XR650L.

75 Degrees today in NC so I took the chainsaw to work.....

 

[Darkbloodmon]

75 Degrees today in NC

This state never makes its mind up with its temperatures, it was very warm today in comparison to last week.

I went to see my doctor this morning since my condition worsened over night and I forgot my log book at home(its almost always in my center console) in my urgency to be on time. Ironically I started noticing things of note about my shifting/down shifting that made a difference. I'm not 100% certain or confident in it yet but I should get a better idea when I head down town during rush hour this evening to pick up a family member from work.

The one time I needed to record and take notes I didn't have my book with me....

 

[Ozymandias]

Said XJ 4x4 friend has talked to me about re gearing if I'm considering 35s but if those are your speeds with 4.10s I'll just stick with 3.73s it sounds more drive-able in comparison.

What's the benefit of 4.10s? I know its not an apples to apples (x times more gears in the trans) but from my understanding alot of class 8s have 3.73s.

I was running 3.73 (factory) with 12k lbs, with several tire sizes. Until I went to 35x12.5 - then there was no fun anymore.
So I went with 4.30 to compensate for the rpm loss and the weight.
4.10 would be the perfect match for the 35er, back to factory setup.
You are now driving a 3.53 gearing taken the tires into account.

Sure it was fun going down the road with 100mph+ but how often do we do this.

So ive no regrets to the change, now the gears fits my speed and the gaps between the transmission gears became smaller and better to drive.
Simple say, the longer your rear end is the bigger the speed/rpm jumps at shifting.

 

[BigPapa]

The one time I needed to record and take notes I didn't have my book with me....

Use your cell phone, dictate a text to yourself.

 

[Darkbloodmon]

Thought I was throwing the shifter over to far past 4th and into 2nd, this is not the case. Today the clutch pedal started binding in the bottom of its travel near the floor. I noticed this stopping at a parts store for some ATF for my power steering system. I'm in the parking lot idling and listening to the engine while filling out my trip log and I push in the clutch a few times and start to feel it move back without the same force as it had prior, there is resistance on the return. I get home and move the trash cans before pulling in my drive way. I get in 1st gear, begin to let the clutch out as the lever is in and the pedal stays on the floor for a moment till I press on it again and it returns with resistance.

The clutch hydro is a new unit I paid to have shipped down with south bends single disk clutch while In Texas, It has full fluid, and the same amount of miles on it as the single disk clutch. Nothing has been altered or adjusted since the Truck left Texas.

I'm waiting on a return call from South Bend Clutch, I'll take a video later of driving noises. I'm not convinced that the noises im hearing are gear roll over from a freshly built unit settling in. The clutch sounds like a dual disk on a cold start, There is a squeal from the bell housing that sounds like the throw out bearing because it goes away with pedal pressure on the clutch, and there is just too much engagement noise for a single disk.

What is so impossible about getting a working clutch in an NV5600?

 

[AH64ID]

What is so impossible about getting a working clutch in an NV5600?

Nothing... I do have to wonder since this is the first stick you driven if it's partially a difference between your expectations and actual NV5600 operation.

 

[GCroyle]

DBM

The squeal from the bell housing. Next time it squeals do the brick wall test I previously described but this time just push on the pedal with the tip of your pinky finger. Just a little pressure. Hold the pressure listen, let pressure off and repeat a few times to evaluate.
Any affect on the squeal?

Gary

 

[BigPapa]

Well, one good thing, it's half as far to SBC as it was to Std Transmission.

 

[Darkbloodmon]

Nothing... I do have to wonder since this is the first stick you driven if it's partially a difference between your expectations and actual NV5600 operation.

With all due respect I put more than 13,000 miles on the OEM clutch the truck came with. If I could let you drive it I would. But I don't think its a stretch or too much to ask for a single disk organic clutch to perform like the stock single disk organic clutch.

I know how to drive, its not functioning. I nearly stalled letting the clutch out into second because the pedal is stuck on the floor.

 

[Darkbloodmon]

DBM

The squeal from the bell housing. Next time it squeals do the brick wall test I previously described but this time just push on the pedal with the tip of your pinky finger. Just a little pressure. Hold the pressure listen, let pressure off and repeat a few times to evaluate.
Any affect on the squeal?

Gary

The squeal goes away with light pedal pressure. Why am I hearing noise from the bell housing like I have a dual disk and a bad throw-out bearing in the first place?

Again the Hydro unit is pre-blead, nothing has been altered since Texas.

 

[Darkbloodmon]

Well, one good thing, it's half as far to SBC as it was to Std Transmission.

Playing eye spy with googles satellite, it doesn't look like they have a service bay for vehicles much less a lift so whats a trip worth?

 

[AH64ID]

I’ve driven both the clutches you have, stock and O-HD. They are not the same and do not preform the same. I think the O-HD is a fantastic clutch and would run it over the stock clutch any day, but it’s not a stock clutch.

I intend no disrespect with my comment, I’m just bringing up a possibility.

 

[Darkbloodmon]

Clutch pedal is now sticking in the bottom of its travel more and more after a grocery run. Applying sharp throttle pressure in any gear now causes the clutch housing to clunk, buck and chatter where it didn't before as if something is loose and moving around.

I'll pull the slave cylinder and verify fork travel tomorrow. I'm going to ask around and see if I can borrow a borescope.

Still awaiting a Phone call back from South Bend after leaving multiple messages.

 

[Darkbloodmon]

I’ve driven both the clutches you have, stock and O-HD. They are not the same and do not preform the same. I think the O-HD is a fantastic clutch and would run it over the stock clutch any day, but it’s not a stock clutch.

I intend no disrespect with my comment, I’m just bringing up a possibility.

I understand, But I'm very frustrated considering the amount of time, effort, and money i've put into this problem. Its a single disk organic "like" the OEM clutch. Its not a rigid ceramic disk. Why is it behaving like this with a freshly built transmission that's been gone through twice over with a new hydro unit?

 

[bcbender]

Hey DBM,, Check and make sure there is nothing on the pedal binding mechanically topside also, I know you've checked it but always worth a second look (third, fourth look).. I have a lift in Mebane in my shop not far from you, and I drove a 305/555 (not stock) for 100k / 10yrs.... If you want to come up here Id be happy to chat with ya, drive it, what ev, some day. Nobody's throwing disrespect your way, we're all trying to help and many of us have had SBC clutches; and I think I had the same one you have, I loved it but it did drive a little different but not egregiously so.

Edit [ Also look to make sure the hyd line is not kinked or pinched somewhere (bottom side)... could be slow to return like a swollen or kinked brake line]

JM2C

 

[Darkbloodmon]

Hey DBM,, Check and make sure there is nothing on the pedal binding mechanically topside also, I know you've checked it but always worth a second look (third, fourth look).. I have a lift in Mebane in my shop not far from you, and I drove a 305/555 (not stock) for 100k / 10yrs.... If you want to come up here Id be happy to chat with ya, drive it, what ev, some day. Nobody's throwing disrespect your way, we're all trying to help and many of us have had SBC clutches; and I think I had the same one you have, I loved it but it did drive a little different but not egregiously so.

Edit [ Also look to make sure the hyd line is not kinked or pinched somewhere (bottom side)... could be slow to return like a swollen or kinked brake line]

JM2C

I'll gladly take you up on that offer, I'd be more than happy to get a second opinion on it to make sure im not just going crazy.

I'll check the lines tomorrow and the pedal its dark as sin out now. I apologize if I come off as lashing out, I don't mean to. I'm just so... exasperated with this ongoing issue. This truck is so close to being 100%; I've done so many things right but this issue is throwing mud in the face of all my efforts.

 

[bcbender]

nah... you're good... nobody takes it that way... Like I said we're here to help.

I am leaving town tomorrow for a few days, but we could probably work out a visit here at my shop, PM me and we can figure it out, I also have a old fellow (not current) TDR member @NLenfert that has a 05 325/600 NV5600 and I'm sure he'd love to join as well. (and Im sure he has an opinion)

I always when I encounter problems like this STOP.... Stack some Aluminum cans.... and then re-examine

 

[NIsaacs]

Clutch pedal is now sticking in the bottom of its travel more and more after a grocery run. Applying sharp throttle pressure in any gear now causes the clutch housing to clunk, buck and chatter where it didn't before as if something is loose and moving around.

I'll pull the slave cylinder and verify fork travel tomorrow. I'm going to ask around and see if I can borrow a borescope.

Still awaiting a Phone call back from South Bend after leaving multiple messages.

It might be possible you have an issue with the flywheel depth, that maybe the input shaft is not reaching the pilot bearing fully. Another thing, the pressure plate bolts on some clutch kits are junk and can strip. After 3 clutches, your oem's are probably long gone. I always recommend oem bolts here.

Some pictures of what I am talking about with pilot bearing depth. It may or may not apply. Note the oem type flywheel pilot bearing location v/s the large style pilot bearing that I assume you have.

Years ago I had a major issue with this on a '96 Ford Superduty, 7.3 powerstroke and ZF-5spd. We were accused of building a truck out of junk yard parts. The truck was bone stock factory. Note the tape with oem clutch and aftermarket, about a 1/2 inch. The tape is touching the pilot bearing in both photos with the pressure plate bolted to the flywheels.

https://www.turbodieselregister.com/posts/2560735/

 

[GCroyle]

Clutch pedal is now sticking in the bottom of its travel more and more after a grocery run. .

The squeal goes away with light pedal pressure. Why am I hearing noise from the bell housing like I have a dual disk and a bad throw-out bearing in the first place?

Again the Hydro unit is pre-blead, nothing has been altered since Texas.

DBM,

These are huge clues. But I'm going to address these symptoms only right now and the other issues smell like a separate series of concerns.

Squeal goes away with light pressure.
This has one primary fault indication, remember it's a new bearing. Indicates a preload that is not being applied to the bearing or the TOB is not sliding freely on the guide tube. A normal system pushes with a preload force applied from the spring INSIDE the slave cyl pushes on piston, push rod, fork, bearing and finally the diaphragm spring tips. This preload is just enough to cause the bearing to turn and all's well. Two conditions can mess things up. Excessive preload burns up a bearing from inside out. Insufficient preload burns up a bearing and spring tips from outside in. All of that squealing noise is making heat dry metal on metal just scuffing each other. Could it be a bad bearing? That takes removal to put it in hand and visually inspect and feel. Four areas that I would inspect. Bearing rotation feel, yup push it together and twist feel and listen. Self aligning. The bearing is not centrally located on the collar in the box or in hand. At install and engine running pedal gets pushes the the self aligning feature kicks in and bearing finds the sweet central spot. Self aligning has a flat spring and friction retaining system that retains the bearing to the collar but you can hold collar and snap bearing up down left right and feel the SA function. On exception is the SA design used by Aetna on this model, it's just loosely on the collar no retaining spring but it does it's job real old school style.

Pedal sticking. This should NEVER happen!
Your leg is the energy source, the entire release system acting as a machine takes that long travel at the pedal with a nice controllable force and turns it into a very short distance but very strong force at the bearing. There are three things to ponder, the force your leg applies, the FRICTION in the entire release system (that's all the way from the pedal pad to the face of the bearing) remember that this machine AKA release system is pretty simple, levers, pivots, cylinders, another lever and finally the gorilla in the room the bearing collar and how it is or isn't sliding on the guide tube. And this friction happens on the down stroke AND upstroke.

Can I prove this from my PC no but these two symptoms really line up well with each other. Other ideas foreign material is doing the hokey pokey in and under the diaphragm spring.

Another test along these lines. Two people, engine off, parking brake set. DBM slides under the trans and gets really close to the bell housing area. Trusted friend pushes clutch pedal up down repeat. DBM you are listening to anything and everything. It should be pretty quiet. Also put you hand on any noise area you can reach like the slave cyl body itself, the pass side opposite the cyl is where the pivot ball is, feel right there too.

Doesn't matter what parts are new or who did what, it's troubleshooting time.

Gary

 

[Darkbloodmon]

It might be possible you have an issue with the flywheel depth, that maybe the input shaft is not reaching the pilot bearing fully. Another thing, the pressure plate bolts on some clutch kits are junk and can strip. After 3 clutches, your oem's are probably long gone. I always recommend oem bolts here.

Some pictures of what I am talking about with pilot bearing depth. It may or may not apply. Note the oem type flywheel pilot bearing location v/s the large style pilot bearing that I assume you have.


View attachment 131897 View attachment 131898

Years ago I had a major issue with this on a '96 Ford Superduty, 7.3 powerstroke and ZF-5spd. We were accused of building a truck out of junk yard parts. The truck was bone stock factory. Note the tape with oem clutch and aftermarket, about a 1/2 inch. The tape is touching the pilot bearing in both photos with the pressure plate bolted to the flywheels.

https://www.turbodieselregister.com/posts/2560735/

View attachment 131900 View attachment 131901

I see the difference your talking about, The flywheel that came with the 1947 OK-HD kit is the same flywheel that I used with the Phoenix friction kevlar clutch. The HD roller bearing/pilot will bottom out on a shelf inside of the milled provision on the flywheel. All the hardware used was from the South Bend Clutch kit, new Flywheel bolts, new pressure plate bolts, etc. I have the OEM bolts in a bolt box.