Too close to the line?

[AH64ID]

Did they legalize pot in Idaho? I won't argue acronyms. But 5vers transfer weight to the rear axle lightening up the RV's weight when a trailer weight is the full weight of the trailer axles. So a 16K pound trailer is 16K when a 16K pound 5ver has some weight transferred to TV.

I would have to ask you the same about the weed....

How does it transfer the weight? What transfers the weight? There isn't anything... A 16Klb 5er weights 16K lbs hooked up or not, end of story. If you think otherwise you are one too many tokes into the morning.

There is a difference in carrying weight and transferring weight. Transferring weight implies a reduction from the 5er, does the 5er weight magically go down when you hook it up? No it does not.

Here is what you can do to prove me wrong.

Find a scale. Before getting on the scale park in a level parking lot. Take some measurements of the 5er so you can return it to the same position on the scale as the pickup.

Get the GVW, RAW, and FAW weight of the pickup without the 5er.
Using a king pin stabilizer get pin weight with the trailer in a tow attitude. (most king pin stabilizers have the weight rating to support 100% of the pin weight, but I would keep the landing gear within 1/2 of the ground anyhow).
Hook up the 5er to the TV and get a new GVW/RAW/FAW for the TV.

Look at the numbers and the TV weight will only increase by the pin weight, that means no weight transfer. Weight transfer would mean more weight is added to the TV than pin weight.

 

[RVTRKN]

This is from the Manufacture. A 2005 Arctic Fox Trailer 38L weighs dry, 9480 lbs. with a dry axle weight of 8280 lbs. and tongue weight of 1200 lbs. A 2005 Arctic Fox 5ver 29-5E weighs dry, 9460 lbs. with a dry axle weight of 7890 lbs. and pin weight of 1600 lbs., so whos smoking now. Thats 400 lbs difference transfered to the pin by manufactures numbers. I know our weed (Calif) is much better than Idaho's dirt weed, but its still gets you high. :-laf:-laf:-laf

 

[RVTRKN]

Now concider the stability of moving that weight to the front and rear axle of the TV compared to that weight on the rear of your TV frame/bumper. Thats why the 5vers are more stable than trailers, especially when it starts to sway.

 

[AH64ID]

This is from the Manufacture. A 2005 Arctic Fox Trailer 38L weighs dry, 9480 lbs. with a dry axle weight of 8280 lbs. and tongue weight of 1200 lbs. A 2005 Arctic Fox 5ver 29-5E weighs dry, 9460 lbs. with a dry axle weight of 7890 lbs. and pin weight of 1600 lbs., so whos smoking now. Thats 400 lbs difference transfered to the pin by manufactures numbers. I know our weed (Calif) is much better than Idaho's dirt weed, but its still gets you high. :-laf:-laf:-laf

I am thoroughly enjoying your attempt at this, but sorry it's not working. You have also changed your story.
Let me re-quote you.

2nd) Because it's a 5ver it effects GCVWR in which transfers weight to the trucks GVW and subtracts some of the 5vers weight.

But now you are stating it different.

Thats 400 lbs difference transferred to the pin by manufactures numbers.

YES!! Transferred to the PIN, NOT THE TV.

So which one do you really believe??

The GVW of the trailer doesn't change based on being a TT or a 5er, simply where the weight is carried. In neither circumstance does hooking the trailer to a TV reduce the GVW of the trailer, as you stated earlier.

I hope it's the second, as that is a transfer of weight. The first one, the one I questioned you on is not how the weight works on a 5er.

Conversations are hard to follow when your high and changing your story.... at least the quote feature works.

2nd) Because it's a 5ver it effects GCVWR.

Aside from using an acronym that doesn't describe any actual rating that statement is also false. It doesn't matter what kind of trailer it is, GCW is calculated the same way and the end result is the same.

Simple numbers... 10,000lb TV and a 10,000lb Trailer.

10,000lb + 10,000lb is 20,000lbs... each and every time!! It doesn't matter if the TV gets 1,500lbs of TW added to it or 2,500lbs of pin weight, the result (GCW) is the same.

11,500 + 8,500 = 20,000lbs. TT with 15% TW
12,500 + 7,500 = 20,000lbs. 5er with 25% TW.

The 5er will have lower TAW than a TT of the same weight, but that has ZERO effect of GCW or the GVW of the trailer.

5ers do tow better, and are generally more stable but they DO NOT do anything magical with numbers.

You know that 4/3 people have a hard time with math.....

 

[RVTRKN]

An 8k lb truck and 8k lb trailer/5ver is 16k total, GCW. Ya, no crap eh! We're talking about the transfer of that between the two. Ok I'll pause while you take a toke!,,,,,,,,,,,,,. The transfer of weight is greater with a 5ver than a trailer to the TV, pause for another toke, and therefore can allow for greater ability of the TV to pull more weight. Toke, cough, toke, cough some more, toke and hold,,,,,,,,,, Ok exhale. Now when Dodge gives trailer weight rating, they are talking about bumper pull trailers, or the weight behind the bumper, ok let me take a toke now, cough,,,,,,,, So now that is established, GCWR (or my acronym GCVWR, remember I did take a toke) is Dodges number only and is not recognized by DOT, they only care about axle ratings, I know we've argued about that as well, but none the less if your over your axle rating you risk fines and can be held at the scales until it's weight has been corrected. So go ahead and take another toke, I'll wait. ,,,,,,,,,,, Now let's get back to 5ver vrs trailer, you can pull more weight with the TV if you can transfer some of the weight to the TV. If I can move weight to the tow vehicle that subtracts from the trailer weight behind the TV.


That was cute about the pin weight, where does the pin sit, the weight, does it not, sit slightly forward of the rear axle? So back to my numbers quoted for the same weight between 5ver and trailer, the axle weight for the trailer is heavier than the fiver therefore proves my theory that more weight is behind the bumper. Pulled trailer behind bumper is 8280 axle + 1200 at the tongue (which is behind the bumper) for a total of 9480 behind the bumper. The 5ver is 7890lb. axle, but the pin weight is transfer forward of the bumper giving you less pulled weight. Ok you can go back to your bong.

 

[AH64ID]

The transfer of weight is greater with a 5ver than a trailer to the TV

You really think weight leaves (pesky English language and the definition of transfer) the 5er don't you...

So now that is established, GCWR (or my acronym GCVWR, remember I did take a toke) is Dodges number only and is not recognized by DOT, they only care about axle ratings, I know we've argued about that as well, but none the less if your over your axle rating you risk fines and can be held at the scales until it's weight has been corrected.

Are you now changing the subject again (deflection)? We aren't talking ratings at all. We are talking about you thinking a 5er changes the GCW, and we are talking about how you think a 5er transfers weight to a TV.

FWIW each state is different, but AWR doesn't mean a thing in the statues I have looked at. Unless your pickup has a TAG axle on it the DOT doesn't care about GAWR. DOT cares about registered weight, standard axle weight limits, and tire limits... that's it.

Who cares about GCWR?? I know you said GCVWR but the conversation was about GCW.. not GCWR.

Now let's get back to 5ver vrs trailer, you can pull more weight with the TV if you can transfer some of the weight to the TV. If I can move weight to the tow vehicle that subtracts from the trailer weight behind the TV. .

First of all transfer implies it is removed, read up for the definitoin if you need to see it again. So unless you are taking something OUT of your 5er and placing it IN your TV nothing is transferred.

Second, the GTW does NOT change as soon as it's hooked up to the TV. GTW is GTW whether it is hooked up or not. A 10K lb 5er doesn't become a 7,500lb 5er once it's hooked up to the truck, it is still a 10Klb 5er.

Gross Trailer Weight (GTW)
The weight of the trailer plus all the cargo in it. This is
measured by putting a fully loaded trailer on a scale.

HERE are some more definitions you apparently need to brush up on.



Nothing about the story changing?

What about that magical effect of a 5er on GCW (that thing you incorrectly call GCVWR).

Come back to this thread in a couple hours, and re-read what you are typing. I can almost guarantee that what you want to say is NOT what you are typing... But you are reading what you want to read, not what you said. If you still believe 100% of everything you typed (hard since your story has changed over the course of the conversation) then I would check your meds... you may have gotten the wrong ones.

My favorite part of this thread are the multiple quotes you can't delete/edit when you realize you are not typing what you are thinking. I've tried to show you the mistakes and wording errors but you are having a Harvey moment.

 

[RVTRKN]

GVW= vehicle and weight in/on vehicle. Pulled weight (trailer) = trailer weight.

 

[AH64ID]

GVW= vehicle and weight in/on vehicle. Pulled weight (trailer) = trailer weight.

Yeah, anything above the hitch is trailer weight, even if it registers on the TV axles. You are still pulling the pin weight, regardless of where it registers.

Can lead a horse to water...

 

[RVTRKN]

My 07 C&C GVWR 12500, GAWR front 5200, GAWR rear 9350, for a total legal weight of 14550 lbs. Thats 2050 lbs. more than Dodges GVWR of 12500 lbs. by their own numbers. So if I hook up my 5ver to my truck and transfer the pin weight of 1800 lbs. to my C&C that weighs 10000 lbs. + or - a few pounds is 11800 lbs. GVW, pulling the rest of the 5ver weight of 8250 for a total GCW of 20050 lbs. Which is under 21000 GCWR and under the max trailer weight of 13750 lbs.. Now back to the argument of GCWR If my truck can take 14550 DOT legal and the truck weight is 10000 lbs., thats 4550 pounds of pin weight and if you have that as pin weight then more than likely your 5ver axle weight would be around 13500 lbs. for a total of 28050 lbs. and my C&C GCWR is 21000 lbs., and would be DOT legal with the proper registration for that amount of weight, and I have a class A license. On edit, did you notice the pulled weight behind the truck is under the trailer rating of Dodge.

 

[AH64ID]

My 07 C&C GVWR 12500, GAWR front 5200, GAWR rear 9350, for a total legal weight of 14550 lbs. Thats 2050 lbs. more than Dodges GVWR of 12500 lbs. by their own numbers. So if I hook up my 5ver to my truck and transfer the pin weight of 1800 lbs. to my C&C that weighs 10000 lbs. + or - a few pounds is 11800 lbs. GVW, pulling the rest of the 5ver weight of 8250 for a total GCW of 20050 lbs. Which is under 21000 GCWR and under the max trailer weight of 13750 lbs.. Now back to the argument of GCWR If my truck can take 14550 DOT legal and the truck weight is 10000 lbs., thats 4550 pounds of pin weight and if you have that as pin weight then more than likely your 5ver axle weight would be around 13500 lbs. for a total of 28050 lbs. and my C&C GCWR is 21000 lbs., and would be DOT legal with the proper registration for that amount of weight, and I have a class A license.

Weight doesn't transfer...but I doubt you will ever use that term correctly. You are still pulling that 1800lbs of pin weight. The 5er has 1800lbs of force being applied to the TV, but it doesn't transfer to the TV. Nothing is removed from the 5er, hence NO transfer. Carrying weight on a hitch is still pulling it, it is not like 1800lbs of cargo in the bed. You are pulling the full 9050lbs, regardless of where the weight sits. It is a 10,050lb 5er, thus you are towing 10,050lbs not the 8,250 you keep trying to tell us you are.

The pin weight doesn't effect your GCW, so what is your point? GCW is GTW plus GVW, pin weight or tongue weight doesn't change it.

Where do you live that DOT cares about axle weight ratings?

I have looked at a bunch of states statuets, none of them care about GAWR just tire ratings.

My tuck has 5200/6200 axle ratings, with a GVWR of 9,900lbs and a GCWR of 21,000. I am legal up to 9,000/9,000 and 26,000 GCW. I only pay for 26K because above that I would need a Class A and to pay commercial registration regardless of use.

On a normal camping trip I am 4800/7500 with a GCW of approx 20K and 100% legal, but I am not sure that has anything to do with this conversation.

 

[RVTRKN]

Then we'll argue all day so it's a mute point, as I posted previous we have not agreed on GAWR's, so leave it to others to figure out, there is a reason for manufacturers requiring it be posted to include posting it on trailers as well.

 

[AH64ID]

Lets do it with a beer next time

As far as door stickers they are required to put one and for most vehicles on the road the axle/vehicle ratings are pretty steadfast. The only true exception I can think of are HD SRW pickups where the RAWR is truly tire/wheel limited, otherwise the door sticker is pretty important to be adhered to.

The one thing I don't get is why Dodge/Ram used 12,x00 for its GVWR on DRW's from 03-12. Based on the FAWR/RAWR I would think the frame can handle the weight, and we know the suspension can. Was it purely a "we don't need it for marketing" limit? Or are the brakes only good for approx 14,x00lbs?? (GVWR + the 2,000lbs that they can tow without trailer brakes). We already know that brakes are based more on GVWR than AWR on a vehicle, so are the brakes a limit??? It's also possible they just didn't want to go higher, much like the 9,900 GVWR on my 3500 SRW. I could easily go to 11,590 and not exceed any of the limits the same frame receives on a DRW, nor any of the axle limits... but 9,900 GVWR kept them in the passenger car class. Once Ford went past 10K they all did, and not they are all Class III rigs.

The 14K limit on 13+ DRW's is an easy one to figure out, it's a pickup and to be considered a pickup it needs to stay Class III... and a whole host of other things go along with a Class IV vehicle.

 

[RVTRKN]

I'll buy the beer in Pahrump, if your going to May Madness.

 

[AH64ID]

Not this year, would love to but work is busy in May.

 

[jacknife]

Once you load up you are going to be right there. Talk to the dealer and maybe you can get some decent ST tires put on cause you are going to have alot to handle if you get a blowiut with 17500 of trl behind you. I would also go to a 14 ply g rated tire on the truck and some air bags to level up with. Dump the factory shocks the rebound control sucks and they pack up easy. i put on some Bilstiens and they really smooth out the rebound. JMO. WHAT is a weight Nazi ? Is that a person that is just trying to keep someone from killing himself, family and others because he or she may be ignorant of truck limitations. If so, that is a good thing before someone spends thousands of dollars on a truck that is too small or the trl too large.

 

[RVTRKN]

WHAT is a weight Nazi ?

HBarlow, who has since retired from TDR, due to many other resons, but was passionate (using a kind word) about towing. Although he could be vicious in response he had a wealth of towing information, the problem was if you disagreed him he went on a brutal attack.

 

[GAmes]

I wouldn't classify Harvey as a weight Nazi, far from it. While he worked as a transporter he regularly towed above Dodge's GCWR and never used a WD hitch with TTs.

 

[RVTRKN]

Then you've never been on the other end of one of his rants, I had lots of discussions (if that's what you want to call it) where he brutally went after me over DMV WEIGHT registration and fees that he knew nothing about, so I'll have to disagree with you on that one. He was very informative when I started to set up my commercial/RV hauling, even set me up a job with a Transporter. Met him in person at the 08 May Madness, and learned he was very stubborn and opinionated. He was a nice guy though, and would help anyone on TDR if you needed it, but get in an argument with him and you became his mortal enemy, when it wasn't nessesary.

 

[AH64ID]

Unfortunately towards the end of his TDR presence he was more wrong than right, yet still continued the argument/attack in the face of facts. It ranged from small things to big ones.

 

[RVTRKN]

Ya, I had to go to extraordinary ends to prove the EB in a 07 C&C manufactured before 07 was an option, even posted window sticker showing the option and cost. Anyone else, I would have ignored it or dropped it, but he was so nasty about it, I proved him wrong going through a lot of trouble to do it. I believe that was one of his lasts posts.