Toyhauler Tow Vehicle Choice

[SSage]

I tow a big toy hauler and I full-time so space is very important. If I moved once a month I would not have a 43' TH, way to much strain on a 1 ton. The comment on loosing a 7 pin and blowing intersections has happened to me. When I went to a trailer with a base weight over 12K that became an issue. My 2004 Arctic Fox travel trailer weighed around 10K and you could stop it without trailer brakes within reason. The 39' Day Dreamer has hydraulic disk brakes and they are the best stopping things ever. I love pulling my Dads Day Dreamer.



The 15K trailers and larger must be driven with care if you don't want crash experience. When I pull mine I brake very early and keep speeds low in crawling traffic etc. Its not something you want to mess with on short trips with the family.



I would look at a trailer under 36' without a separate garage and pull it with a dually. It will be much better to pull and it will be easier to find a spot to put it. Once you start pulling huge trailers you are limited to how fast you can run and backing up hill or over curbs will toast a custom auto trans too. I keep a close eye on trans temps and I have the DTT treatment, which rocks by the way.



I use my 43' trailer as a base, its a great desert set up. I go to an area and sit a few months. I ride dual sports and take trips up to two weeks away from the RV, I love the KZ 41KG for that use. I wouldn't pull it every month unless I had a M2 or other large RV toter.



We need pics:



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My Goose Neck Option:

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[Spooled-up]

That thing is a monster!



Nice setup.

 

[TAbbott]

Spooled-up said: "My buddy called his insurance company and asked if he would be covered if he was above the GCWR for his truck while he was pulling a toyhauler. They said absolutely not. "



That is simply untrue. Not saying his buddy didn't say it, but no insurance agent ever told him that.



Pulling overweight cannot possibly be as illegal (if as much, certainly) as driving drunk would be. Have you ever heard of a drunk driver causing great damage to someone and his insurance company saying: "Oh no! You were drunk. That's illegal. We're not gonna pay for that school bus load of kids you hit. " He** no you haven't, because it's never happened! Or what about a grossly overloaded big rig, driven by a company driver losing it and taking somebody out. Do you think that company's insurance company is going to claim they have no obligation because of the drivers error? Not gonna happen.



What happens is the insurance company does an investigation. If they determine their insured caused or is liable for the problem, they pay to the limits of their policy for any property damage or injury their insured caused. They, also either immediately cancel the insurance policy or if it's been fully paid, they simply advise that they will refuse to renew it on its anniversery date.



THAT'S IT unless their investigation determined their insured was not at fault. If they ever even tried saying "Yup, our insured did it but we're not gonna pay the victims because the sticker on his door said he was overloaded" (even when no State regs can be found to support that position) the Insurance Commission in that state would never let them sell another policy there.



If they deny liability, (for good cause... like their insured didn't do it in their opinion) then it remains for a court of competent jurisdiction to find them liable, whereupon the victims are obliged to compel them to pay if they still refuse, which they might by posting a bond equal to the amount of damages awarded by the court and appealing to a higher court which may happen multiple times, drawing out the "day of reckoning. " That's their bargaining chip at that point, "We'll pay this much now or we'll appeal and you can wait for your money. "



My point is that they are obligated to pay if their insured is at fault. Period. They can't get off the hook by alleging their insured was towing overweight, was drunk on his a**, or the moon was blue or the car they hit was pink. That's just B... . aloney.

 

[steved]

As for the insurance, what MIGHT happen is the insurance company pays out to its max, then sues YOU for operating the MV unsafely (out of the "contract" you signed) and costing them more $$... but yes, you can kiss that insurance goodbye.



steved

 

[TAbbott]

Anything is possible, I guess, but even the idea your insurance company might sue you to recover damages they had to pay is a little far-fetched, assuming you've upgraded your equipment to allow it to safely haul higher weights than indicated on the door stickers.



First and foremost they'd have to allege you'd broken a law or were grossly negligent and then prove it in court to even have a chance at recovery. If you were drunk, then perhaps they might have a point, but over door sticker weight? Give me a break, GVW and GCVW have no legal status anywhere with the possible exception of the vehicle manufacturer denying warranty covererage and even then they'd (theoretically, at least) have to prove that whatever you did outside their sticker weights caused some part to fail, which they then would refuse to warrant.



Simplified greatly, most state weight regulations simply require that you run no more than 500 lbs per inch of tire width per tire on single tire per wheel end trucks.



The regulations do limit you to not exceed the tire or wheel DOT ratings, which are absolutes, (and generally coincide with the the door stickers) but if the wheel or tire is DOT rated for it, that essentially means you can carry 5000 lbs per single tired wheel end, and not be overweight. More on steering axles, up to 10,000 lbs per tire if tires / wheels are rated for it.



The door stickers on light trucks even say: "When equipped with such and such oem tire and wheel". If you have aftermarket tires and wheels more heavily rated, then you're OK up to the 500 lbs per inch as stated above.



Based on that, what law or regulation is the Insurance company going to allege that you broke or exceeded? My SRW QC CTD is licensed for 12,000 lbs by the state of Nevada. They would have gone up to 14,000 lbs had I wanted it. That's more (far more) than the door sticker says, but the state says I'm fine with it. If it was not legal, I'm sure they wouldn't have issued the registration that way.



I'm just trying to say that the fear-mongering of "You won't be insured" or "they'll sue you" is just that. Trust me, if you run over somebody and you were legally in the wrong (or not), you're gonna get sued. I don't care if you were overloaded or empty or anything in between. The point is that you're not necessarily overloaded just because you exceed the door sticker advisories -- which is what they are.

 

[TAbbott]

Back to the point of the post, I think the original poster can use an SRW to pull that trailer assuming he does those things necessary to do it safely -- stronger tires, wheel, shocks, upgraded brakes, exhaust brake, etc. Even the 43 footer he's talking about isn't going to overload any individual component on a properly upgraded SRW Dodge Cummins.

 

[SBeretz]

this issue has been talked about many toimes on TDR but there are always different views. i myself have towed my 40ft raptor with a combined weight of 24. 5k on my 05' 2500 SRW and have zero problems or concerns. i also have 35inch tall tires and 3. 73 gears with a G56 which i love.

I pull my 3814SS Raptor with no troubles whatsoever. I don't have sway, braking, or starting problems. I have loaded it with a full water, gas and quads and the trucks still pulls it the same way. It is a triple axle with brakes on all axles and I do have a PAcBrake, but I haven't met many hills I could not top going the speed limit. I did add the Xzillaraider, but it stays on 1 or 0 when I am towing. 43ft and a fully loaded up to 17K lb trailer might be a little heavy, but if your tires and axles are rated for the weight, the truck would pull it comfortably. JMHO. Scotty

 

[jimnance]

When I pull my 37' fifth wheel toyhauler with my '05 CTD dually and full water I'm within 200 lbs of the GVWR. I'm within 300 lbs of the front axle limit, and have a wide margin on the rear.



Depending on the model of fifth wheel, location of water tank, and how you have it loaded, you can easily exceed the rear tire/axle rating with an SRW truck and 40' fifth wheel.



I don't get overly excited about the combined vehicle weight rating. The drive train has proven to be very durable. Braking could be an issue, but with care on the downhills and a good set of operating brakes on all axles you should be able to stop any reasonable load. Some hot shot guys haul unbelievable loads with their DRW's.



I wouldn't consider pulling the described load with an SRW simply because you would have no safety margin on the rear axle.



I don't see any reason a DRW truck wouldn't handle the load just fine.

 

[BrianJ]

Anything is possible, I guess, but even the idea your insurance company might sue you to recover damages they had to pay is a little far-fetched, assuming you've upgraded your equipment to allow it to safely haul higher weights than indicated on the door stickers.



First and foremost they'd have to allege you'd broken a law or were grossly negligent and then prove it in court to even have a chance at recovery. If you were drunk, then perhaps they might have a point, but over door sticker weight? Give me a break, GVW and GCVW have no legal status anywhere with the possible exception of the vehicle manufacturer denying warranty covererage and even then they'd (theoretically, at least) have to prove that whatever you did outside their sticker weights caused some part to fail, which they then would refuse to warrant.

The real problem isn't going to be the insurance company suing or police/DOT charging with an offense, rather any family (or estate of family) suing due to an accident involving property damage and or injury beyond covered limits or death. All a private party would have to prove is negligence, which is not hard to do in an overload situation. In about any case I have seen all that has to be proven is that the defendant exceeded published (i. e. manufacturer) ratings. In most cases for a private tow setup aftermarket add-on's do not change the ratings. Why do you think there is a big paragraph by aftermarket manufacturers cautioning against exceeding manufacturers ratings (i. e. the disclaimer that Firestone makes about their RiteRite air bags).



By the way, Careless Driving or the more serious charge of Reckless Driving are just two examples of charges that can be issued for an accident where an overload situation could have contributed, both carry potential jail time. Both are bad news for future insurance coverage/rates.

 

[jimnance]

All a private party would have to prove is negligence, which is not hard to do in an overload situation



Actually, a bit more than negligence is required for punitive damages. These can be the really big numbers in a lawsuit. It rises to the level of careless and reckless or something like that. All bets are off if a fatality is involved.



In trucking, a general rule of thumb of $1,000,000 per fatality is considered for insurance purposes. So if you want to insure for a worst case of five fatalities then $5,000,000 would be the minimum amount of liability insurance you'd want to carry. It could certainly rise above this if the victims were doctors, lawyers, etc. , and their age. Part of the calculation is the remaining earning ability of the person killed. I know this sounds a bit callous, but it's the way the system works.



If you knowingly operated a vehicle above the tire or wheel weight you are in grave trouble. If you've exceeded GAWR or GVWR you are in bad trouble, and CGVWR just in trouble.



Anyone with any significant assets to protect should insure for a minimum of one million liability. The minimums that most states require won't come close if a fatality is involved.

 

[TAbbott]

BrianJ asked: "Why do you think there is a big paragraph by aftermarket manufacturers cautioning against exceeding manufacturers ratings (i. e. the disclaimer that Firestone makes about their RiteRite air bags). "



A couple of reasons (at least. ) First, it's good business for them to do so. CYA and all that. Second: They or whoever does the installation is probably (almost certainly) not a licensed upfitter authorized by Chrysler or other vehicle manufacturer to change the vehicle manufacturers rating plate. Firestone rates their bags to support 5,000 lbs at 100 psi. They'll do that, but that doesn't mean that if you install them on a 1/2 ton truck with P-Metric tires that you can or should put 5,000 lbs beyond the manufacturers rating in the bed of that truck. That doesn't mean there isn't some idiot out there that would do that, just that if they do that and destroy their vehicle or crash and burn taking someone else out with them that Firestone will disclaim liability -- "We told you that adding our bags doesn't change the manufacturers rating. " Like I said, good business and CYA.

 

[AABEN]

Hi, our family is looking for a large toyhauler - 40+'. We are looking at traveling locally here in CA, but also throughout the US and Canada. We have looked at many and like the KZs (New Visions/Escalades) which are 43 1/2' long and max at 18-19k.



We were looking at pulling the RV with an '06 Dodge 1ton dually with engine (350hp/750tq) and transmission mods, 4. 10 diff, air bags, etc for towing heavy. I've read a lot of experiences of guys that tow commercially even heavier than this with mods that don't have problems or trepidations, and can maintain legal speeds even on mountain grades. Then I've heard from the weight police saying that the truck will crash and burn, wear out, break, be under-powered, etc.



I've looked at a lot of posts by people pulling very large 5th wheels and large Toyhaulers with 1ton duallys and even SRW trucks. They don't seem to have any problem. What do you guys pull your 40' Toyhaulers or large 5th wheels with? What is your experience with 1ton duallys? Thanks for your experience and comments.

Well your police are wrong!!! Look to the dealers to help you out. Ask them to show you on papper what your truck can pull. The 4. 10 is a verry good one. I pull a fithwheel 38. 5 feet loaded 15000LB 100GAL fuel tank in truck bed 800LB 50gal water 400LB plus tool box a crose back of truck. Have 6 speed o3 HOP 3. 73 diff 4x4 3500 in flat country no wind 16 mpg at 60mph. in mountans drops to 7mpg up 14to 17 down . Push the pedal like you have and egg on it . I also have the jake brake. I would not pull one that big with out the jake brake,

 

[TAbbott]

What blackbear said.

 

[TFlewitt]

Brake failure

In regards to my original post's questions about towing within the gvw of both truck (12,200lbs gvw-likely weight of 11k or less) and trailer (18,000lbs gvw -likely weight of 18k), but over the gcwr of 23k lbs: a couple of posters have said that a brake failure on the trailer would be catastrophic, andthat it could be a likely thing to plan for. .



First of all, can anyone document first-hand/personal knowledge (please no "I had a buddy that said he heard . . . ") circumstances of the 7 pin connector failing or falling out? Can anyone document first-hand/personal knowledge of wiring burnout/fuse blowing, etc, with a fairly recent model of 5th wheel trailer causing total brake failure? Are brake failures towing 5th wheel RVs common?



Anybody have knowledge of how quickly an exhaust brake (used in lower gears/higher rpms) and the disc brakes on an '06 DRW 1 ton would stop a large toyhauler such as above?



In looking at MDTs recently, I noticed they all appear to have 16" drum brakes. The Dodge 3500s have massive (thick) 14" discs. Anyone have any actual knowledge of how much more effective a 16' drum/19. 5-22" tire is going to be compared with the 14" disc/17" tire? I might assume in a short distance panic stop, the 16" drum might work better, but on a grade, wouldn't the obvious fade resistance superiority of a 14" disc close the braking "gap"?



In talking to this MDT salesman (yeah I know, he was trying to sell a truck), he stated that none of the 5th wheel RV trailer were designed with enough braking capacity to stop themselves and that the tow vehicle had to do some, if not most, of the stopping. I thought that each vehicle (tow and towed) was supposed to have at minimum, sufficient stopping ability to stop itself. I thought that the addition of a vehicle behind another vehicle was not supposed to put an additional (or certainly undue) braking load on the front tow vehicle. Anyone know what is really true?

 

[SnoKing]

Couple points. An exhaust brake does not stop a load. It allows you to go down a steep grade without using you service brakes, which gives you nice cool brakes if you have to stop for some reason.



Second the brakes on with 12K 5er and very small in comparison to the brakes on my 7K 2001. 5 truck.



I want a Volvo 660, but my wife says "no way"!



At the Alburquerque Balloon Fiesta, we got a tour of a Volvo. Guy paid 28K for it will less than 500K miles on it. Neat rig. SNOKING

 

[Fireman]

Well said Harvey.



I whole heartedly agree. Err to the side of safety.

 

[Fireman]

In regards to my original post's questions about towing within the gvw of both truck (12,200lbs gvw-likely weight of 11k or less) and trailer (18,000lbs gvw -likely weight of 18k), but over the gcwr of 23k lbs: a couple of posters have said that a brake failure on the trailer would be catastrophic, andthat it could be a likely thing to plan for. .



First of all, can anyone document first-hand/personal knowledge (please no "I had a buddy that said he heard . . . ") circumstances of the 7 pin connector failing or falling out? Can anyone document first-hand/personal knowledge of wiring burnout/fuse blowing, etc, with a fairly recent model of 5th wheel trailer causing total brake failure? Are brake failures towing 5th wheel RVs common?



[/U][/U]

Yes, it has happened to me. Partly my own fault, I didn't securly latch the connector. A tiny oversight that could happen to anyone. I didn't notice it going up the mountain, but I sure did coming down the other side ! You can bet I'm a heck of alot more careful and double check when I hook up now.



As a firefighter/paramedic I see all kinds of horrid vehicle accidents, and I have seen the aftermath of a rig with a large 5th wheel trailer that made a panic stop with no trailer brakes. The trailer pushed the truck through an intersection, jackknifed and overturned. Luckily no other vehicles were involved. The number of accidents involving travel trailers is astounding, the cause of the majority are inadequate tow vehicles and/or too much speed.



Drum Brakes



Have you ever really looked at the drums on a larger truck ? Diameter has nothing to do with it. The average light duty truck with drum brakes, the braking surface of the drum may be what ? 2" wide. On a larger truck they will be 6" or more wide. It is the sq inches of surface area of friction that matters not diameter.

 

[steved]

Drum Brakes



Have you ever really looked at the drums on a larger truck ? Diameter has nothing to do with it. The average light duty truck with drum brakes, the braking surface of the drum may be what ? 2" wide. On a larger truck they will be 6" or more wide. It is the sq inches of surface area of friction that matters not diameter.

Actually, diameter is usually dictated by wheel diameter... the larger the drum, the more effective "leverage" the brakes have on the wheel.



steved

 

[Fireman]

Correct



The point I was trying to over simplify is there is no comparison between a light duty truck's brakes and a med or heavy duty's.

 

[steved]

Sort of a moot point anyway since they utilize discs on all the corners nowadays...

steved