Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) Truck starts, stalls, and restarts easily. Runs great.

[dknoch]

Well, tried the battery charger with the batteries, no different. Cranks a couple times, tries to start, cranks a couple more times and fires up. Runs smooth, no smoke from the oil filler. Was 25 degrees F in the attached garage.

 

[BK]

Long shot.. but,
If one of the batteries is not happy, at this cold temps, for the huge current slugs that would drag down the voltage, the charger isn't going to help an ounce.
OR could be the starter isn't happy at this cold temp, and while it sounds fast enough, if on the way out, it could be drawing more than normal and dragging the voltage down.

Can you measure the voltage at each battery during cranking ?

To me, if it's cranking more than it should, I thought most of the time it's fuel related... not enough flow, lost prime,......
After the first fail to start, the LP will run for 15 seconds.

What happens if you do a false start, just hit it for a 1/2 second, than off, than do that again to force the LP to run for 15seconds before you really try to start it, like you were priming the fuel filter.
Than try and start it after the LP has been running for 10-12 seconds?



I had the crank sensor start to go on me, but it always started, Driving down the street I'd get a code and loose power, and than it would come back.

When my VP44 died, I lost power after I came off the go peddle on Rt 80.
Hard starting, would get it started, run for a while, foot off the go peddle and it would die.
Finally, it just didn't fire up.

 

[JR]

If you bump the starter to activate the lift pump do you get fuel instantly out of the drain on your fuel filter? Fuel pressure comes right up or is it delayed? Sorry if you covered this and I forgot.

 

[dknoch]

Hey guys, I didn't expect the batteries, they are only 3.5 years old, cranks pretty fast and voltage is good with the grids warming. Not suspecting loss of prime since it starts fine plugged in and sometimes hard starts after it has been driven a little while and only shut down for a few minutes. Yesterday, I didn't plug it in, unhooked the FASS relay and it still hard started but started faster. Ran it for a few miles. Sat for about 30 minutes and hard started again with FASS hooked up. Drove a few miles, stopped for a sandwich and when I came out it hard started again. Got home, sat in the drive off for about an hour and when I left, I unhooked the FASS relay again and it started good. I thought I was onto something but it started good the rest of the day with the FASS relay hooked up. Put the truck in the garage last night after sitting in the drive for about 5 hours, and it hard started with the relay unhooked. There goes that theory! Spoke to Doug with Bluechips diesel, he said if it is starting fine plugged in, it could be a solenoid or something else in the pump that is not reacting properly cold. This morning, truck was good and cold, put a heat gun to the VP44 for about 10-12 minutes, being careful not to melt the wire harness to the TPPS, cycled grid heaters twice, truck started good. I am cautiously optimistic that the problem has been located. Too bad it is the most expensive item on the repair list, but this is my 3rd VP and it has lasted more than twice as long as the other 2 combined so it has been on borrowed time for awhile. Was referred to Redline diesel a few weeks ago by Cummins Bridgeway, said one of their guys left to work there. Was hoping to find a local place, happy with the people at Action, but he didn't sound too positive about it being the ECM and when I called a couple of days ago, no one has returned my call. So, I will probably contact Redline on Monday, report my findings and see when they can take it to double check the diagnostics and install a pump if needed. $1500 pump and install didn't seem to bad, did on of the previous ones with help from a friend but don't have the time or desire to freeze my butt in the cold.

Thanks again for all the help, I will update until the truck is running good in hopes to help the next guy.

 

[klcammie]

Just a thought, you mentioned that grid heaters didn't seem hot enough and that a couple of times you got a p0382 code. On mine I was getting same code and found out that the little wire that activates relay was loose. At one time while working on driver side of engine I bent the end of the wire. Even though wire was on terminal it didn't contact good enough. This caused the relay not to work setting the code.

 

[dknoch]

Thanks, when I got the code, it was ironically after I had tested the relay and found 1 side of it to be bad. Thinking back, It has started weird sometimes when it is still warm enough that the grids don't activate so I think that means I can rule out the grids as the cause, may still be a factor though but I think it is mostly something else. Grids wiring was tested and cleaned also.

 

[JR]

Where is Redline located?

No codes showing yet? I'm not sure I'd be comfortable with that diagnosis just yet, not to the tune of $1500. What your saying sounds logical but the lack of codes would worry me a bit when it comes to committing that much money.

 

[dknoch]

Yeah, no codes yet. Doug from Bluechips seemed to feel it was the pump based on the symptoms. He seemed to know what part internally it was that was failing. Redline Diesel is north of Wooster. Seemed famaliar with the aftermarket stuff, not scared of it like some other places. I feel pretty sure it is the pump but I am not a gambler, especially with $1500.

 

[BK]

I thought there was an issue with some of the aftermarket LP, too much pressure into the VP44 was causing starting problems ???

 

[dknoch]

Yeah, I have heard that too. Also, damaged diaphram will let air past and cause problems. If that was the case I believe it would be there hot or cold, not just cold. I also tried disconnecting the relay and starting the truck without the 2 second burst when you turn the ignition on, no real change. Thanks for the ideas. Also, the more I think of it, the more I rule out the ECM. The truck starts hard cold and almost anytime I try to restart it before it is warmed completely. I would think the ECM being bolted to the block would still be warm enough even if truck was not up to 190 deg operating temp. VP44 hangs off the side and would therefore pick up less engine heat. Make sense???
Thanks again!

 

[BK]

did you say your on your 3rd VP44 (if this one is bad) ... ??

what is the LP output pressure?

I hear ya , but I would think the thermal conductivity of heat from the block to the PCB is poor, so not sure.

But can't disagree with the VP44 "hanging out there" .. and cooling quickly.

I had my first VP44 deemed "good" by the dealer and Cummins help line, cause it did throw any codes after some problems, and under warranty having my 1st LP replaced.
From that point forward, had a pressure gauge on it w/ a stock LP on the block.
And kept an eye on it.
With LP pressure where is should be, I finally had the VP44 give me fits , but finally died in the same day.
My gray area was very short in time span.
You could be in the same grey area.


I thought I had remembered that too much pressure cause operational problems, not just breaking a part.
Just wondering since your on your 3rd, how long has the FASS been on there related to the "3" VP44's VS pressure your running.

 

[dknoch]

First VP died at about 20,000 miles, had dead pedal and 0216 code. Dealer could not replicate. Put new pump in myself, got gauges, new lift pump (was bad). Put a frame mounted booster pump on and still had the garbage lift pump die. That is when I put a FASS on. Had the 2nd VP die around 40,000 due to computer issue. Dealer warrantied pump and it has been good till now at 165,000 miles. New FASS last year due to original one wearing out and developing a pulse. Can't drop pressure below 12 if I try (and I have). Doug from Bluechips did not blame the computer on the pump, more an internal silenoid being worn and not having full range.
Thanks
Dan

 

[dknoch]

Well, has been 1 month since I last updated. Not much to update. Truck is still having problems. Has been at Redline Diesel for the past 3 weeks, they installed a new VP44 and it still has the same problems. They are putting the old pump back in and throwing in the towel. Now where to look...ECM/PCM??? Bad RAM in the ECM taking too long to find itself??? ASD relay through the PCM???

HELP! This is going to drive me insane.

 

[JR]

Wow. How frustrating this must be. So it wasn't the VP, still no codes and still hard starting...maybe Action is on to something with the ECM diagnosis. It could explain the lack of codes, but its strange it runs fine once warmed up. Its too bad you dont know someone with a similar truck to swap out ECMs. I could offer you mine but I dont know that they are compatible across all years/transmissions.

 

[BK]

that sux, sorry to hear, can't imagine anything more frustrating.

The pick up on the tank ?

Rusted / porous fuel lines?

Clean all related connectors (both halves of the mates) ?

 

[dknoch]

Alright, picked the truck up last night, still not fixed. drove home with no problems, despite it's problems, I have missed the truck quite a bit. After sitting in the drive for a little while, when I went start it to put it away, it gave me trouble starting as usual. Paying a little more attention, I noticed that as soon as it lost itself, I backed off the starter but left the ignition on and the lift pump stopped running. Under any other circumstances, the lift pump should have ran for 25 seconds or so. This is leading me to believe the problem may be in the ignition or more likely the ignition circuit of the ECM. It acted as if the ECM shut down the fuel related circuitry. All the accessories stayed on, just acted as if I had never tried to start it. Did not have a chance to pull the ECM and refrigerate to yet. Probably try that Friday.

Thanks for the help!

Dan

 

[BK]

Ah interesting observation, starvation.
Do you have a pressure gauge on the LP ?
If not, might be a good trouble shooting tool, and a good thing to have anyway.
Could see the needle bounce if it's cutting out ?

 

[BK]

Or you could also wire an LED in parallel with the feed for the LP , mount it temp somewhere on your dash, starts running rough or see the LED go out before you stall you know...

 

[dknoch]

Lift pump pressure is great, the ECM actually shut it down. Heard it run for half a second after backing off the starter, as if you turned the key to the run position again.

 

[dknoch]

OK, did some messing around and found when the truck stumbles while trying to start, that I am getting a voltage spike at pin 5 to the back of the VP44 harness. It spiked and went away faster than my meter could keep up, but I hit over 3 volts, probably more, meter reacts kinda slow. When I started cranking again, there was next to nothing in millivolts and it fired right up. I ordered an ECM, refurbisher stated if it didn't fix the problem, I could send it back and they would refund my money minus shipping and a $75 test fee, didn't seem like too much to lose. Have good power to the VP44 harness whenever the key is in the run position. I heard I could cut the wire, but I don't really want to band-aid fix it. Is there an easy way to pull that wire from the harness to test run without it, I can't seem to find images of the loose connector terminals or the cummins tool to do it.

Thanks,

Dan