Update On Hydrogen Application

[betterthanstock]

There is another thread in alternative fuels, but getting an update is like pulling teeth.

 

[FFeiller]

the four minute mile was broken by a runner that hadn't heard that it couldn't be done. almost immediately others started breaking the four minute mile.



if don garlets had been a student of einstein he never would have broken the 200mph quarter mile.



unfortunately we are limited by what we or other profess to know.



much progress in numerous fields has been accomplished by those that didn't know that it couldn't be done.



progress only comes through breaking barriers.



the H process may or may not work. it certainly won't for those that "know" it can't.

 

[MJReynolds]

the four minute mile was broken by a runner that hadn't heard that it couldn't be done. almost immediately others started breaking the four minute mile.



if don garlets had been a student of einstein he never would have broken the 200mph quarter mile.



unfortunately we are limited by what we or other profess to know.



much progress in numerous fields has been accomplished by those that didn't know that it couldn't be done.



progress only comes through breaking barriers.



the H process may or may not work. it certainly won't for those that "know" it can't.

The problem is you're trying to compare things that were simply hard to things that require well proven fundamental laws of physics to be broken. It's one thing to say that breaking a 3 minute mile or a 500 mph quarter mile is impossible. They aren't and there are no physical laws that say they can't be done. They're simply really hard to do and some people equate hard with impossible.



These hydrogen systems require the creation of more energy than you put in. Like it or not that simply is not possible because it would require the first and second laws of thermodymanics to be wrong. Sorry but they're scientific laws because they've been completely proven. Simply put, the First Law states that energy cannot be created or destroyed; rather, the amount of energy lost in a steady state process cannot be greater than the amount of energy gained. The second law is a bit harder, the second law states that "energy systems have a tendency to increase their entropy" rather than decrease it. This can also be stated as "heat tends to go from hot to cold, and not the other way around. " A pithy summation of the Second Law would be "You Can't Break Even".



I would love to get 25+ mpg with my truck but spending money on these systems is simply a waste of money.

 

[Matt400]

So, have any REAL topics been covered lately?

Naw. . just the usual stuff. To stir your pot some more, JHMiller made mention of the Ram Implosion Wing and I had to re read that again thought what the heck and did a google for fun finding this gismo enjoy! :-laf

 

[BLarkman]

Damm I must be doing something wrong because my truck started and seems to run fine. Built a simple basic hydrogen generator, hooked it up yesterday and drove out to see the guy who had started me on it. Tuesday will drive it to Portland and back, 150 miles. Will have to season it and make some small changes to fittings before leaving for Yuma 1250 miles one way

 

[PRout]

There is another thread in alternative fuels, but getting an update is like pulling teeth.

That should speak for itself.

 

[ENafziger]

That should speak for itself. <!-- google_ad_section_end --><!-- google_ad_section_end --><!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

I believe the gentlemen is having problems with his VP44 and is currently replacing it. --Eric

 

[DIESELMAN]

Naw. . just the usual stuff. To stir your pot some more, JHMiller made mention of the Ram Implosion Wing and I had to re read that again thought what the heck and did a google for fun finding this gismo enjoy! :-laf

To quote the Ram Wing Users... . " He claimed his mileage improved from 17-mpg to 56-mpg "



Now THATS science :-laf



Here's a disgusting number to ponder, Take a 6. 7, Pull a fairly low 8,000 lb trailer at 75MPH, and get 11. 7MPG. You might be happy with those numbers, however, you are expending 890,000BTU of fuel per hour to accomplish less than 520,000 BTU of work, the rest is lost as heat, inneficiency, EPA mandated EGR reduction in chamber temps to reduce NO2, which results in increased soot so you burn more fuel to burn out the DPF regularly.



To make up for these losses, and get the fuel efficiency up to just 18MPG, you would need to create at least 310,000 BTU/Hr of Hydrogen Energy, and this requires nearly 92,000 watts, your little 'reactor' at 18 Amps input produces LESS than 1000BTU of energy or about 250 watts.



A real estate and wallet example, suppose you have a little fuel cell car that gets the hydrogen equivelent of 26 MPG, and you drive 15,000 miles per year.



If you live in Arizona, you need a 1000 square foot solar array costing about $65,000, and 280 days of sun, to split the water for the hydrogen.



Over 5 years, the fuel equivelent is about $56. 00 per 'gallon' for solar power. (Solar Power is about $0. 54/Kw over 5 years)



At $0. 10 / kilowatt for electricity, the same car cost about $10. 18 per equivelent gallon for 'plug in' hydrolysis, and about $1. 02 per equivelent 'gallon' if you used natural gas to produce the hydrogen. (or about $2. 80/gallon for CNG)



Re-Chargeable Battery power is still much cheaper.



This is why Solar power is the WORST source/method for producing hydrogen. Hydrocarbon 'cracking' and reformation processes are and remain the best sources of excess hydrogen.



Anyway, Back to work... And remember to Vote Early, and Vote Often.

 

[brods]

Ok you opened this can of worms.....

.....

Does adding Hydrogen increase the efficiency of the fuel burn, sure, but not to a degree greater than the energy required to create the additional Hydrogen flow in the first place. ... .

Soooo... can you back up this claim with data? A SAE paper, lab testing or a detailed step by step description of the combustion event with the requisite chemical interactions perhaps? If not then how is that statement any different than the claims of mpg improvements? By your definition they both fall into the category of "RUBBISH! HOGWASH, Whatever... . "



Before you reply, consider that simply advancing the timing on a smogified motor nets mpg gain. Since you opened the door by saying H increases the combustion efficiency, you must now explain how a hotter quicker burn will not improve mpg. Your latest example did not consider any increase in combustion efficiency, just straight BTU values. So does H increase combustion efficiency or not?

 

[PRout]

I sure love these fuel line magnets. .

Yessir, increased my mileage 2. 75 mpg's and ive only had a week so far to reap the increased benefits. Once they season the fuel lines, I figure on a 5 MPG improvement easily. Naww, no change when I dyno'd the rig with or without them, but sure helps with mileage.

A friend of mine that sells 'em says he gets 92 mpg's in his 'ol datsun pickup with a new, modified array of magnets that he is going to start testing next week for production. . Yessir, HIGHLY recommended. I won't go on any trip without them, they have paid for themselves 20 times over already. . No need for any other mods but these. What, you guys callin' me a liar??? You morons! I dont need to take this abuse anymore. . I know they work, and thats good enough for me.

Oh, by the way, I just happen to have a few for sale. . Will give ya a good price with your tdr discount

 

[HBarlow]

Can I get a dozen? I'm "pm"ing you my credit card number right away.



I want to give one to my friends and family members for Christmas.



I'm a believer. Your comment about "seasoning the fuel lines" convinced me. I don't care what all those skeptics, engineers, chemists, and scientists say, I know they'll work.



BTW, do you have any AZ ocean front property to sell? I've been looking for a parcel.

 

[PRout]

lol. . Just wait 'till you see the new "Exhaust Magnet" technology. . It lines exhaust molecules up in a sawtooth pattern to grab the turbo blades more efficiently as they pass through the housing, causing more boost for the same output, then just after they clear the housing the molecules are lined up in a "side by side" configuration to pack more volume in the same space, which in turn creates less backpressure. . Initial estimates show approx. 14 mpg gain and 15% free HP. They work better in AZ due to less humidity - Patent Pending

Edited: Just funnin' w/ you guyz. . Would be great to see some good results from these hydrogen generators. It is kind of neat technology. .

(besides got a little heat transfer problem to deal with on this exhaust mag tech - maybe a peltier cooler mounted to the turbo, would only need about 175 amps to operate it, I figure for those long pulls a person could add the optional "quick connect" 2/0 welding cable extension kit to utilize trailer batteries when the mains are empty).

 

[Road Dog]

Ok you opened this can of worms..... Soooo... can you back up this claim with data?

It's called conservation of energy and is one of the fundamental rules of the universe. So unless you live in a different universe with different rules then listen to DIESELMAN.

 

[brods]

This is awesome!! Really! It is truly amazing to see peoples reactions to this topic. Seriously, you'd think the fate of the world was riding on this!



I have simply asked someone to back up their argument. I have not stated that I believe one way or the other. And rather than someone supplying facts to support their position, the all knowing nay sayers reply with mockery.



Why do some of you care so strongly that this cannot work that you are willing to resort to such childish replies? Is it really that important to you that it not work? I guess if you can't form a logical argument... ...





Road dog, Dieselman said H increases combustion efficiency. As he has pointed out much of the fuel's energy is wasted as heat. Increasing combustion efficiency equals more mpg. His statement was that the increase was more than offset by the amount of energy required to generate the H. What is wrong about asking him to support that statement with hard evidence of some sort?



Everyone seems to think the proponents need to supply irrefutable proof to support anything they say, but that rule doesn't apply to the nay sayers??? It should apply to everyone. If one can not back up what they say then they are just stating an opinion and it is no more or less valid than someone else's opinion.



Can't wait to see what backlash this post brings, lol.

 

[HBarlow]

PRout,



Please put my name on the shipping list for the exhaust magnets also. I want to be among the first to install them on my truck.



Humidity is low here in West Texas similar to Arizona so I know your devices will work great for me as you explained.



I figure by adding more than one of your magnet devices to my fuel lines and also several of the exhaust magnets to my turbo down pipe I can reach the point where my combustion efficiency and fuel economy will improve enough that I can stop once a week at the Flying J and sell fuel back to them instead of enduring those costly fill ups as I have for years.



Wow. I'm a believer! I can hardly wait for my shipment to arrive.

 

[MJReynolds]

Let's do some fairly simple analysis of the use of hydrogen to replace of the diesel fuel and thereby increasing the mileage. The following analysis was not mine originally but I double checked all the data and it is correct.



Okay lets do some math just so it all helps the understanding of the problem.



You get 10 mpg and you want a 1 mpg improvement, sounds easy right? We are going 60 mph so we burn 6 gallons an hour.



Well you have to effectively add the equivalent power that 1/10 (6/10 per hour) of a gallon of fuel would provide (more or less). We will use Diesel fuel which on average has 130,000 BTU per gallon so we need to add 13,000 btu's of energy to the mix or 78,000 btu an hour to get the 1 mpg increase.



78,000 btu's burned per hour equal 30. 627 horsepower or 22,839 watts per hour.



Hydrogen at room temperature and pressure has an energy density of . 01079 mj/l (mega joule/liter) and those 22,839 watts would require 82. 222 mj of energy or are you sitting down - 7620 liters of hydrogen per hour or just over 2 liters per second from the electrolysis system.



Some of the systems that are being sold claim to generate in the range of 10 liters per minute. That's pretty good but still nowhere near what is needed.



A few of the numbers were rounded off but the potential error is very slight.



Good luck and if you feel the need to send someone money I'm ready to help. I'll even tell you what a great guy you are and how you've got a fantastic truck.



Seriously though, there are much better ways to improve mileage, some are even free such as adjusting the way you drive.

 

[Road Dog]

Road dog, Dieselman said H increases combustion efficiency. As he has pointed out much of the fuel's energy is wasted as heat. Increasing combustion efficiency equals more mpg. His statement was that the increase was more than offset by the amount of energy required to generate the H. What is wrong about asking him to support that statement with hard evidence of some sort?

The engine efficiency is governed by the temperature delta -- the difference between the min and max combustion temperatures. The maximum temperature is limited by two things -- the melting point of steel and NOx. Modern engines are detuned to reduce NOx and meet emission limits. Advancing the timing or (maybe) adding hydrogen will boost the temperature and make the engine more efficient but it won't pass your local AirCare test.



Proving these H generators work is easy. All it takes is an engine or chassis dynomometer to control the load and measure the fuel used with and without the generator. Driving around doesn't prove much since driving style affects fuel economy. Unless it's a blind study where the driver doesn't know if the generator is active.

 

[DIESELMAN]

Mark - You used a Calculator... .



All - Keep yer panties from bunching up, I don't really care if you believe this device or not, I don't and was just commenting. Maybe this thread belongs in the political section with the Obama BS, oops, I started another topic.



Studies, many, going way, way back to the 1970's, even NASA made a study that is the darling of the Browns Gas fans, of course they never read the entire study.



"Feasibility demonstration of a road vehicle fueled with hydrogen-enriched gasoline Author(s): Hoehn, F. W. ; Dowdy, M. W. Abstract: Evaluation of the concept of using hydrogen-enriched gasoline in a modified internal combustion engine in order to make possible the burning of ultralean mixtures"



The conclusion is that the actual minimum energy consumption was the same for gasoline and hydrogen-gasoline, although the minimum-energy-consumption equivalence ratio decreased from 0. 79 to 0. 67. " In other words, adding the hydrogen reduced the mileage until they leaned out the mixture. Then the mileage was the same, but never better. Note that the procedure called for optimizing the ignition timing in both cases.



And this works WITHOUT adding hydrogen.



These 'gizmos' have been tested by every TV station in the country during sweeps week, never a success story, eg. Video



And who knows how many Students have had their ***** handed to them for presenting this same stupid subject over the last 40 years. (My 1974 Electrolyzer for Soap Bubble Bombs cheated with Calcium Carbide for really big bangs, Acetelyne)



Now, If I am Joe Car Designer in Detroit, am I really such an idiot that I continue to push my silly little designs for Fuel Cell cars, variable cylinder management and Hybrids when a $5. 00 box of parts will win me a JD Power award, all I gotta do is ditch a cup holder and I am in!



There are MANY, MANY easier ways to improve fuel mileage, Breaking the rules of nature isn't one of them.



All I am saying is that the Laws of NATURE have NEVER been violated by ANY invention, Even the Atomic bomb was just a theory, much more complex, and easily proven with the SAME rules of thermodynamics.



Chill out and have fun, just don't fall for scams. Yeah, their only $50, but it is just like paying $100 for the two magic words to make your debts go away... .



I am running a half off special!

 

[PRout]

HB, They're on their way. . Would love to see how well they work in a sub. . "Caterpillar drive"?? (pardon the cussin')

 

[BLarkman]

I must be one of the dumb one's, installed generator over weekend and on first run 95 miles one way ended up with 25. 3 freeway driving at 65 with cruise control. I think I am smiling.