Upgrading the 48RE!

[Matt400]

Kevin,

I am interested in all the info you are sharing with TDR and truly appreciate it.

I hope you get things resolved quickly and find out for sure what the cause is.



On Upgrading the 48RE I realize a full rebuild is the no questions way to go for a top of the line product however I am also interested to learn why a partial upgrade such as a TC & VB or even a TC & Shift kit are a bad idea. Seems like an improvement at all is better than no improvement. Comparing a partial upgrade to a full build is not fair IMO and would be better to compare to no upgrade at all.



Isn't it like saying the SO owners need to redo the bottom end to meet HO specs if they want to turn up the power?

 

[KKlingbeil]

From what i have learned in all of this is that by upgrading only the TC, you really dont solve anything because you need the higher line pressure that the aftermarket valve bodies produce to hold the TC togethor. Just because you have more clutch lining in the converter doesn't mean that the same low pressure will hold it, it might but maybe not. I also agree that a full rebuild isn't always the economical thing to do, such as if you smoke your TC at 20,000 miles, the internals aren't bad, and a VB and TC will suit it just fine for MANY miles. The only other issue with just doing parts is that for one it is hard to get warrenty sometimes, and for two, there are still other issues inside the transmission that cause internal leakage, aka pressure loss. I hope this helps some, and by no means am i saying i am an expert as i just like to learn as much as possible to help others that would like to learn. Good luck!!!

 

[Matt400]

by upgrading only the TC, you really dont solve anything because you need the higher line pressure that the aftermarket valve bodies produce to hold the TC togethor.

You must mean in lock up under increased hp levels right? In non lock up mode I can't visualize that.

Wouldn't adjusting the pressure up address that?



Speaking of pressure adjustment, does anyone know what the pressure should be increased to over stock?

The only other issue with just doing parts is that for one it is hard to get warrenty sometimes, and for two, there are still other issues inside the transmission that cause internal leakage, aka pressure loss.

Good point for sure but there are also many folks in remote areas far from any installer who need to make the upgrade themselves and be their own warranty station. May sound odd but in my case taking time off from work to get warranty work done can cost far more than doing it myself on a weekend.

 

[ChrisKringle]

TC and valve body, get it over with. The stock clutch packs (overdrive, direct, 3rd gear drum and even 2nd gear band are good to go!!!! The internals are made by raybestos and are of good quality. Good to over 500hp, so I've heard. If there is a question about the internal frictions, upgrad to Alto Red Eagle frictions and Kolene steels. Available from your favorite vendor in kit form. Billet internals and laminated flex plate are for severe duty/hard launches. Extraordinary application purposes, usually stock shafts and flex plate will hold towing and racing. Just what I've 'heard'.



Just what I've 'heard'. Valve body increases line pressure from like 90psi to over 175psi, more holding power on the torque converter 'lockup' clutch. Any shift kit (i. e. Trans-Go) will do the job. No secret, auto hop-up been around since the '70's. Triple disk, all the better. Again, not trying to plug any one company, but Goerend transmission offers a triple disk converter with a LIFETIME converter warranty for $1200--tight as a nuns *****hole from other users input. Excellent (props to Mr. Burns)! Of course you can't go wrong with DTT as well, look how well they stand behind their product. Testimonials.



I personally wouldn't consider another company, loose converters when not in lock-up (just what I've heard)!

 

[flattracker]

KKLING sorry I hurt your feelings but you said you would keep us posted and you failed to tell us you got a call confirming they were TCS built convertors.

As for whether or not TCS will be around to back their product they were in business long before DTT and most likely will be in the future. Hope you get your problem lined out and let us know the outcome , would really like to know whats frying your convertors. Did you see the old ones when they came out of the truck , was the paint burn't off the front of them where the lockup clutch seats?

 

[Floor It]

The convertors in Kevins truck were from TCS, back before this all blew up with TCS there were issues of getting their convertors across the border. They have that problem fixed. We used a lock up switch to see if we could make the convertor slip in different gears. If any of the clutch packs were slipping the shifts between the gears wouldnt be crisp! If the direct clutch failed you wouldnt have reverse and a few other problems too. All of the clutch packs look new and no signs of slippage. It all comes down to the TQ's and TCS NOT! standing behind them!! The convertors were brown on the side where the clutch linings are.



P. S. airport layovers suck! I'm stuck here.



John

 

[flattracker]

The first two were bad and you knowingly put a third one in ?

 

[flattracker]

John sorry to hear your stuck in the airport once spent 13hrs stuck in st. louis eating 4 dollar hot dogs and chasing em down with 5 dollar beers man that will get in your pocket and set off a gut bomb all at the same time. Back to this convertor thing you obviously have first hand experience. Is it a warranty issue that TCS just wouldn't stand behind a failed convertor, or were they not building them to spec to start with pump drives not concentric, not the speced lining, wrong seals what? Not trying to tear down anyones product here but have run TCS and DTT had good service from both and would truly like to know what the deal is. Or is it a matter of technology catching up when DTT introduced this convertor 500hp and 800 lbs. torque were magic numbers and even those people attaining them were running tight 91 or 93 percent convertors and not trying to run in lockup at those levels. Now 450 hp and 800lbs. torgue is considered a mild upgrade and people trying to pull trailers in lockup at that level is it reaching the point where its just to much torque tohold with a single disc with space constrains of working inside a stock cover?

 

[justinp20012500]

From what i have learned in all of this is that by upgrading only the TC, you really dont solve anything because you need the higher line pressure that the aftermarket valve bodies produce to hold the TC togethor. Just because you have more clutch lining in the converter doesn't mean that the same low pressure will hold it, it might but maybe not.

You are saying that a single disk TC with 100 psi of fluid is ran throught the input shaft to engage lock up will hold just as much input torque as a multi disk under the exact same conditions??

 

[KKlingbeil]

You are saying that a single disk TC with 100 psi of fluid is ran throught the input shaft to engage lock up will hold just as much input torque as a multi disk under the exact same conditions??

Look at it this way: You have X amoung of pressure, and X amount of area to apply it too, with X amount of clutch lining which all equals so many pounds of force per square inch or centimeter or whatever. Then you add three disks, so you still have the same pressure and same amount of area to apply it too, but you tripple your clutch lining area, so you have one third pounds per square inch applyed to your clutchs. Three disks sounds good, but you dont have as much pounds of force per square inch. One of the companys tried a five disk converter, and not much has been said about them because EVERY one of them was toasted because there wasn't enough pressure per square inch.



In other words, it would take three times as much pressure to get the same pounds of force per square inch of clutch in a triple disk as compared to a single disk. That is at least the thought process behind it all, as far as the physics go. Hope this helps some!

 

[zstroken]

F=p*a

Force= Pressure * Area. Force is not measured in lbs per square inch that is pressure. I think lots of people look at this wrong. There are two constants in that equation and one variable. The Line pressure(assume the same linw pressure for a triple and a single) would be a constant at given rpm, the area is constant on them(unless someone knows of a way to change this while the convertor is in the truck) So unless your clutch apply pressure drops, you have much more area in the triple therefore your holding force is much more. You do not get less holding force. Someone else had said the same thing on an earlier thread and I did not say anything. I am not a multi-disk advocate or single disk advocate, Heck I just spend about $1G on a new single from Dave Goerend. What made my decision is everyone talking about how hard the multidisk lock up. Dave is suppose to have a new lining that can handle a slight about of slip and not glaze over. Plus I am going to try out a BD pressure lock to keep the lockup pressures high when RPM's are low.

 

[KKlingbeil]

Force= Pressure * Area. Force is not measured in lbs per square inch that is pressure. I think lots of people look at this wrong. There are two constants in that equation and one variable. The Line pressure(assume the same linw pressure for a triple and a single) would be a constant at given rpm, the area is constant on them(unless someone knows of a way to change this while the convertor is in the truck) So unless your clutch apply pressure drops, you have much more area in the triple therefore your holding force is much more. You do not get less holding force. Someone else had said the same thing on an earlier thread and I did not say anything. I am not a multi-disk advocate or single disk advocate, Heck I just spend about $1G on a new single from Dave Goerend. What made my decision is everyone talking about how hard the multidisk lock up. Dave is suppose to have a new lining that can handle a slight about of slip and not glaze over. Plus I am going to try out a BD pressure lock to keep the lockup pressures high when RPM's are low.

I think what you are saying about apply pressure is true, but again, if you put the same apply pressure to three disks instead of one, there isn't going to be as much apply pressure per disk or square inch or whatever. If you have to same apply pressure in a tripple disk and it is going through three disks then the total of the three COMBINED would equal the origianl apply pressure right?? Maybe i dont see this right, i dont know... Also, im not looking at this from a brand point of view, simply on the mechanics of the TC.

 

[flattracker]

KKLING if applying the same amount of apply pressure to multiple disk did not yield increased holding power than adding additional clutches to the front clutch of an 47re or 48re would not yield added holding power and I think we can all agree that added clutches to the front clutches is a proven fact to work no theory involved.

 

[Matt400]

What made my decision is everyone talking about how hard the multidisk lock up.

Hrmm, most likely a product of all the added area. I thought the Goerend TC's were multi disc. Even my stocker locks in hard enough for me so I wouldn't want more harsh but then again fluid coupling with the stocker is such that I get a huge drop in R's when it does lock (in OD) and that alone provides a jerk.

 

[zstroken]

Goerend makes them all

He has a tight or standard coupling, single or triple disk billet cover or no billet cover. Call him he is a great guy and tell him Dan sent you. Plus he had the best prices around on shafts. I just received my convertor, it is the new tight fluid coupling with a single lock up disk. He said for minimal fee, plus the price difference that if i wanted to go to a triple lock it would be no problem. Just send him the convertor.

 

[justinp20012500]

Someone would have to be crazy to think a single will hold as much as a multi disk with the same amount of apply pressure.



The whole reason a multi disk was developed was for the guys that did not want to turn up the line pressure.



Flat is right about the extra disks in the front drum. There is a new drum out there will hold 6 clutcheds instead of 4.

 

[fox]

Anyone with experience with these auto's knows that the clutch area is smaller for front and rear clutches than the torque converter clutch. If things are built right the sigle clutch converter can and does hold things.

By telling people that they don't need to raise the line pressure is quite missleading!!!!!!!!!!

Let's be honest.

 

[justinp20012500]

Anyone with experience with these auto's knows that the clutch area is smaller for front and rear clutches than the torque converter clutch. If things are built right the sigle clutch converter can and does hold things.

By telling people that they don't need to raise the line pressure is quite missleading!!!!!!!!!!

Let's be honest.

Yes, lets be honest.



I didn't condone leaving the line pressure in its stock form. I just said it was one company's marketing tool when they first came out. Since then the company has changed it's stance on line pressure.



How do you know how many square inches of friction paper is on the lock up clutch? Have you ever measured?



Do you feel the same way even with the 48RE direct drum? What about the new direct drums that just came out that hold 6 frictions instead of 5?

 

[LightmanE300]

Someone would have to be crazy to think a single will hold as much as a multi disk with the same amount of apply pressure. QUOTE]



How about respecting tdr members that simply don't know the answers to questions and ask them, rather than bashing them for not knowing? KKlingbeil is clearly just trying to understand how it works, no need to call him crazy. Someone who understands writing and grammatical rules could by the same right call you crazy for actually posting a sentence that says "I never did tell anyone NOT to raise the line pressure. " Just as you clearly are not an advanced writer, some of us aren't trans techs ya know Lighten up, we're all friends here enjoying talking about our favorite toys...



None of this has swayed me a bit, I am still planning on a full dtt rebuild with billet everything except the output. Flame away saying how the 48RE can handle it and I don't NEED the full upgrade, but I'm with the earlier posters who believe in doing it right ONCE, rather than having to go back and upgrade later. Let's face it, it's not always about need, sometimes it's about WANT. I'd say a good percentage of people on this site don't need a heavy duty diesel truck - they just want them. Same goes for high performance trans parts or any upgrades. Do I NEED a full Kore Chase setup? No. Do I love it and am I glad I got it, heck yes! (sorry to borrow the token finishing need/want line from dream car garage ) :-laf

 

[justinp20012500]

How about respecting tdr members that simply don't know the answers to questions and ask them, rather than bashing them for not knowing? KKlingbeil is clearly just trying to understand how it works, no need to call him crazy. Someone who understands writing and grammatical rules could by the same right call you crazy for actually posting a sentence that says "I never did tell anyone NOT to raise the line pressure. " Just as you clearly are not an advanced writer, some of us aren't trans techs ya know Lighten up, we're all friends here enjoying talking about our favorite toys...

I am not bashing, belittling, or flaming anyone. Just trying to set the facts straight about all the different types of products in the market. I am sorry if you took the post the wrong way.



I fixed the grammatically incorrect error in the above post.



To set the record straight I am not a transmission tech.



I have done some testing with single and multi disk torque converters. I have also opened up a few 618/47RE’s, but by no means should be called a transmission tech.