V-8 Power Stroke and I-6 Cummins

[Gary - K7GLD]

OK JohnBoy - let's get ABSOLUTELY specific here - You and your Ford lovin' friend stance is that projected ENGINE LIFE has absolutely NOTHING to do with the industrial/commercial medium/light duty rating - is that correct - yes or no?



We'll wait for yer reply...



(No tap dancing, smoke and mirrors or fast shuffles allowed... )

 

[Johnboy3]

Putting on my dancing shoes......

I will say no. What I meant to say there was that the rating doesn't show that a Cummins will last longer then a Powerstroke. I'll see if I can't find where the ratings are and post them.

 

[ramfan2]

Johnboy3



I asked several different diesel mechanics what it meant. They said it specifcally relates to the rebuild life of the engine. I think it goes without question that the Cummins (medium duty) will out last the Power Stroke (light duty) by about double. One of mechanics, who now works for an independent shop, (use to work or Ford) told me that he has hardly ever had to much of anything to a Cummins.



Chris

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

IT is my opinion, that what the Ford fellas are attempting, is to downplay the value and intent of the rating system used to determine the longevity of the Cummins, most specifically as compared to the International V8 used in the Fords... They'd far rather claim that rating applies to ANYTHING other than engine life, durability or reliability in typical use...



I don't blame them...



I've done my own investigation, and sent a message direct to Cummins for their reply on the subject, and will post it here when it arrives... But believe me, that rating is FAR MORE about engine life and durability than EPA or emissions... After all, that same engine is heavily used in forklifts, road building, heavy equipment, and LOTS of stuff that doesn't even REQUIRE or care about EPA or smog regulations!



As far as "looking up" statements on expected engine life - here's what Cummins claims for THEIRS:



"Let's talk durability, dependability and reliability. With an average life-to-overhaul of 400,000 miles*, the 24-Valve Turbo Diesel doesn't have to sacrifice anything to give you the performance and durability you depend on. "



SO. Johnboy, we'll see WHO eats crow here in a few days...



(never TOUCH the stuff myself... )

 

[cold Diesel]

Hey GBall,

You are right about the Fords outnumbering the Dodges in the oilfeilds up here as well. If you look at who uses them it comes clear. Most of the contractors who pay for their own repairs have Dodges. My company only buys Fords as they get huge discounts. I drive a Ford crew cab at work every day. It is a 99 with 82K Km on it. It also has had over $9K USD in repairs to make it that far!!! I have taken it to be fixed at LEAST once a month at the minimum. I am on my 3rd suspension, 3rd transmission... ... ..... etc so I don't think the 'rest of the truck' stands up well at all. Glad I don't pay for the repairs!! But this is JMHO based on what I see up here.

 

[Johnboy3]

We can go tit for tat........

Gary, I'll order you a slice of crow too, here's what International has to say about the life of the PSD engines.....



"The challenge of real-world durability proven in service. Millions of in-service miles have earned the International T 444E the reputation of a durable performer. To verify this, T 444E engineers performed teardown inspections of fleet-owned,daily-operated engines with 300,000 to nearly 500,000 miles of accumulated service. Meticulous inspection of the engines showed minimal signs of wear, and no major repairs had been required during the life of the engines"



So from you what you posted, Cummins expects to have to overhaul a 5. 9 at around 400,000. International just plucked a few out of rotation with that many miles on them to see what they looked like. From the sounds of thinks they will still run for a while yet.



Cold Diesel, one thing you also have to remember is that the people who actually pay the repair bills are alot easier on a their trucks then the employees. We have several pickups, it's amazing what an employee alone in the wilderness can destroy in a day. We tend to blame most thousand dollar repairs (suspension problems in particular) on the dimwits behind the wheel. And yes, we have both Dodges and Fords. They both can be broken.



BTW Gary, why don't you fire off a carbon copy of the email you sent Cummins to International and see what they say about the whole thing. That would really be interesting.

 

[Johnboy3]

Ramfan, asking the mechanics when they think a group of engines are going to fail is about like asking your hair dresser when all the dark haired guys on your block are going to go bald.

 

[LarryB]

Seems to me if I were an engine manufacturer I would call my engines "Medium Duty" if I could. Also, I wonder why Ford only uses the Cummins in their medium duty trucks.

 

[Johnboy3]

If I could label my engine "light duty" and eek by the emissons standards for a few more years till my new engine came out, I would.



Larry, you can get the 5. 9 Cummins, the 7. 2 Cat, OR the 7. 3 Powerstroke in the medium duty trucks. Just like the big trucks. It's all up to the buyer.

 

[Cummins4Life]

Hmm tastes like chicken... I heard not too long ago that (probably a rumor) that the T444E is a heavier duty version of the "powerstroke"?

 

[Dbonzi]

All I can say is:

Throw a good set of firestones on a ford and they make a wonderful CASKET:--)

 

[GBall]

Cold diesel, Remember I'm Evil GBall. The real GBall is the guy who left his account logged on on my computer. I just don't want him to have any grief. I'm sure ther are a lot of fords up there getting repaird. It's a a rough life they lead in them oil fields. I can't say wich brand is averaging the least cost per mile. But if the fords are out numbering the dodge. You got to figgure either (a) fords are cheaper to run (b)the dudes running the Co. are financial idiots or (c) the dodge dealers up there have no idea how to fleet sell there trucks.

Larry B and cumminsforlife, You had to do it didn't ya!! Now I feel so insecure about my rod agian. I better call my therapist . You have to remeber. With the longer stroke and boost your running you will need the heavier rod. See Ya:--)



EVIL GBall

 

[Diesel Freak]

YAAAAWWWNNNNNN!



This is boooooriiiiiiing!

 

[LarryB]

Originally posted by GBall

With the longer stroke and boost your running you will need the heavier rod.



EVIL GBall

Good point! That's why they make all that power. stroke+boost= torque. Now you're startin to see the light. :-laf :-laf

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Johmboy - stop with the smoke and mirrors and tapdancing!



The ISSUE here is WHAT are the parameters used in determining whether an engine is light, or medium duty... Nice try tho...



I mentioned the Cummins mileage bit ONLY since YOU were looking up the info, NOT because it superceded the official test or

parameters used in determining commercial/industrial duty ratings - I'm rather certain there is an official testing procedure that involves FAR MORE then mere down-the-road use...



The various manufacturer claims as to mileage commonly obtained are interesting for advertising hype, and if you'll notice the difference between the Dodge and Ford claims, Dodge/Cummins is more directly ASSURING the 400,000 mile O'haul interval as a relativel COMMON occurance, while Ford is merely talking about checking a FEW SELECTED engines for wear at specified mileage - and for every instance YOU can provide FIRST-HAND evidence of uncommon mileage, I'm sure *I* can provide a countering one - for instance, friends in Payette Idaho have well over 1. 2 *million* miles on their '93 dodge used daily delivering trailers for local RV manufactureres - the head has never been of the block... Do you REALLY wanna go there?



I have more if you're really interested - not hard with an engine used so widely commercially/industrially...



SO, stop the evasion, lets get to the REAL issue - engine ratings!



And get yer bib on!

 

[FFutch]

Somebody opened a big old...

... can of worms. Guy's I've worked on class 8 diesels for 15+years. For heavy duty over the road applications there is no substitute for an in-line 6,period. For light and med. duty v-8's do o. k. I work at the power co. now so I don't work on nothing bigger than a 3126 cat. I've got all 3 brands here(ford,g. m. ,and dodge),no Cummins tho . The fords are P. S. D. s and they do their job. Some common problems are,C. P. S. ,oil galley plugs,glow plugs,and automatic transmissions,but overall not a bad truck. Now would I own one,probably not,but hey I've been a Mopar guy since I could walk. As far as a v-8 fitting in a confined spot better,I don't think so . The dodges and g. m. s have their own problems also. I guess my point is there is no such thing as a perfect vehicle,but the C. T. D. is as close as it comes ... Doug

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

NAHhh Doug, the REAL issue here, and one the Ford guys prefer to tapdance around, is HOW and by what methods is the commercial/industrial "light" or "medium" rating applied to International vs Cummins engines - THEY prefer to assert it is entirely pivitol upon EPA emissions specifications and technology - some of the rest of us insist it PRIMARILY related to specific tests applied to engine durability and reliability...



As far as debates over which TYPE of engine, V8 or I6 id preferable for serious WORK, economy and reliability - well, the freight haulers have already settled THAT debate quite a while back...



Anyone seen an 18-wheel diesel V8 freight hauler recently?



No?



Wonder why that is... .

 

[FFutch]

I see what you're getting at Gary. There's a nice little discussion over at the F. D. site about powdered metal rods. Every time that we bring up that pic. comparing rod size we get from the Ford boys. But if we want to bomb these motors to the hilt we're not too worried about the bottom end. Head gaskets are another story. It seems that I. H. went to P. M. rods too save money but do you think the consumer sees that savings . It's like our trucks being made in Mexico . Yes the Cummins is over-built,but would we want it any other way ... Doug Oh yea,I've seen a few v-8's in cl. 8. 3408Cats and 8v detroits,and there's a reason they're extinct. It's called survival of the fittest

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

I wouldn't kid anyone - the Ford V8 diesel is a GOOD engine - and regardless of relative differences in expected lifespan, precious few of us will live long enough to wear one out in normal service, or even keep it long enough between trade-ins for engine life to be a factor.



My major reason for not buying one - and I *did* take a long hard look at Ford before buying my '02 Dodge - was the fact that the Fords are operating much closer to their maximum reliable power rating, are more complex and difficult for most owners to comfortably work on and maintain, and as a Ham radio operator, they are electrically VERY noisy in mobile radio applications - the Dodge/Cummins is dead quiet! Probably WON'T be when the new generation hits the scene, which is why I bought the '02...



But again, the International V8 is a GOOD engine, as is the REST of the truck - and the Ford guys can be proud of them - just don't come over HERE with exaggerated or misrepresented claims as to engine capabilities, ratings or other efforts to cast false impressions about the Cummins there's FAR to many guys here well acquainted with ALL aspects of the company, the engine, and the tiniest details of what makes it tick - and when desired, ROAR and SMOKE!

 

[PZicha]

Originally posted by GBall

First lets stop with this "detuned" fraze. That would mean they put it together and it made so much power that they started taking things off and downsizeing every thing to retard it. Truth is it runns as eficient as the epa will allow. Soon as you add your power gagets it smokes like a friggin freight train. If it was "detuned" they wouldn't have upgraded it twice now ie. old twelve,new twelve,24 valve and now the new generatin

Ok Evel Gball you have a point with the epa dribble , same reason they didn,t put a V10 in the 1500's , as far as the "detuned" phrase I still stick by It . Yes the Cummins comes in power ranges from 160hp to 370hp and yes I know for a fact the motor has the capabitity to dismember the stock clutch on the standards and auto's in the higher power ranges thats why most of us that bomb our trucks have to beaf up certain components to stomach the torque , how much warranty do you think DC would give you with a 5. 9 pushing 325hp 750ft/lb that is still within stock Cummins power specs, do you think you'd still get your 7 year 100,000 mile warranty . I would love to see that . As for as old 12 new 12 old 24 and now the new 24 valve over the years they have learned to up the power an still stay within the epa boundaries . Tell me what represents the chevy 350 closer to its true nature , the 375hp version or the aneamic 145hp dog they put in the early monza's , I would almost consider the second one as a detuned version of the first , how long would the monza last without beafier components with the 375hp motor and I'd love to see the warranty you got with that package . Oh one more thing Gball, I have never Installed any gagets or any "GADGETS" for that matter . I'll give you a little tip , next time you post minimize your microsoft word and give that spell check a real good work out . If your going to sound like you know what your talking about you might as well look it