Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) VP Pump part #s ?? Waht's the Diff. if any?

[Gary - K7GLD]

Does just putting a larger supply line provide the cure, or should the return line also be replaced? Is the flow determined by the size of the supply or the return line? i. e. a firehose supplying a hypodermic needle?

The subject of, and many facets of the notorious VP-44 causes many issues concerning it to pretty constantly resurface, and some issues to again rise out of the ashes of previous threads - some that were VERY complete and well done.



One such thread was "Pumps, lines and whatnot" - do a search on that thread for a real eye-opener concerning what can, and CAN'T be expected in playing around with special lines and fittings, as far as influencing flow thru the VP-44 is concerned.



The short answer, for this thread, is that NO, merely applying lots of flow and pressure capabilities at the input to the VP-44 will NOT affect what it will allow to actually flow THRU it.



There are various internal passages and operations that effectively BLOCK all but what fuel the VP-44 can actually use - or allow to be bypassed back to the fuel tank as part of it's internal lube/cooling needs - and applying MORE than that need is a waste of time and energy, and may in fact damage some diaphragms and internal seals.



Too LOW a PSI is certainly damaging to the VP-44 - and consistent EXCESSIVELY high PSI (above 20 PSI or so) may also cause damage as well.

 

[SpicyJam]

The subject of, and many facets of the notorious VP-44 causes many issues concerning it to pretty constantly resurface, and some issues to again rise out of the ashes of previous threads - some that were VERY complete and well done.



One such thread was "Pumps, lines and whatnot" - do a search on that thread for a real eye-opener concerning what can, and CAN'T be expected in playing around with special lines and fittings, as far as influencing flow thru the VP-44 is concerned.



The short answer, for this thread, is that NO, merely applying lots of flow and pressure capabilities at the input to the VP-44 will NOT affect what it will allow to actually flow THRU it.



There are various internal passages and operations that effectively BLOCK all but what fuel the VP-44 can actually use - or allow to be bypassed back to the fuel tank as part of it's internal lube/cooling needs - and applying MORE than that need is a waste of time and energy, and may in fact damage some diaphragms and internal seals.



Too LOW a PSI is certainly damaging to the VP-44 - and consistent EXCESSIVELY high PSI (above 20 PSI or so) may also cause damage as well.

I will agree that doing a search will yield you what you are looking for. I do know that the ideal VP pressure is 13psi. Reason for that is the diaphragm as Gary stated. The 13psi is constant on both sides of the diaphragm if maintained, (keeps the plate from moving) even with the new updated plate that is found in the newer VP's it still can move up to 2 to 3mm causing the seals to leak, instead of crack like in the older VP's, eventually leading too VP failure.

 

[NoSeeUm]

OK, DOH.....

The injection pump is driven by the engine camshaft. A gear on the end of the pump shaft meshes with the camshaft gear. The pump is timed to the engine. The VP44 is controlled by an integral (and non-serviceable) Fuel Pump Control Module PCM)

(Fig. 24). The FPCM can operate the engine as an engine controller if a Crankshaft osition Sensor (CKP) signal is not present.

So from this I understand that VP does the primary timing control, the ECM just tunes the signal for optimization and sends the fueling signal?



Jim

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

TTT...



Earlier in this thread, it was stated that rebuilt VP-44's that had the "Fedex" internal control board would NOT allow significant engine RPM above 2700, even with use of add-on boxes like the Edge Drag Comp. And since virtually ALL reconditioned VP-44's for the last 2 years or so used that board (ALL older boards were phased out and superseded by what we commonly refer to as the "Fedex" board), the issue to some would be of significant importance - pumps reconditioned within the last several months now use and even "later and greater" internal PCM - so dunno what issues might be with that pump.



So, what's the truth here - CAN the "Fedex" VP-44 defueling limit of 2700 RPM be externally eliminated/controlled by boxes like the drag comp, or not?

 

[lsenus]

I certainly hope so. I was planning on getting a "Smarty"

 

[SpicyJam]

TTT...



Earlier in this thread, it was stated that rebuilt VP-44's that had the "Fedex" internal control board would NOT allow significant engine RPM above 2700, even with use of add-on boxes like the Edge Drag Comp. And since virtually ALL reconditioned VP-44's for the last 2 years or so used that board (ALL older boards were phased out and superseded by what we commonly refer to as the "Fedex" board), the issue to some would be of significant importance - pumps reconditioned within the last several months now use and even "later and greater" internal PCM - so dunno what issues might be with that pump.



So, what's the truth here - CAN the "Fedex" VP-44 defueling limit of 2700 RPM be externally eliminated/controlled by boxes like the drag comp, or not?

Gary all I know is that 2 Fed-Ex pumps on 2 separate trucks, one with an Edge Drag, and one with a TST PM3 "hot", both trucks fell flat at 2700rpm.

The new rev 030 I am not familiar with yet, I will find more out when I go out to I. I. to visit. Later Jim.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Gary all I know is that 2 Fed-Ex pumps on 2 separate trucks, one with an Edge Drag, and one with a TST PM3 "hot", both trucks fell flat at 2700rpm.

The new rev 030 I am not familiar with yet, I will find more out when I go out to I. I. to visit. Later Jim.

If that checks out across the board, then guys with rebuilt VP-44's from the last couple of years planning on installing a Drag Comp or similar for higher RPM operation are in for a BIG surprise - in fact, I'm amazed we haven't seen a number of posts on the issue long before this!

 

[SpicyJam]

If that checks out across the board, then guys with rebuilt VP-44's from the last couple of years planning on installing a Drag Comp or similar for higher RPM operation are in for a BIG surprise - in fact, I'm amazed we haven't seen a number of posts on the issue long before this!

Gary I didn't notice it until I looked at the dyno charts. Then when I called another shop in southern WI and asked him if he had ever seen this, he too has had a call about the Fed-ex pump on the dyno. I never saw that dyno sheet personally, but he had news of it before I did, and was apologizing too people that he had sold the pumps too... ... ... . because he did not know at the time it would be like that. Now mind you the ones we got were brand new units not rebuilt.

I wonder if it is like the RV pumps where they are limited also... . I am not that familiar with the RV VP, but if I recall they are set at 2200? I am only guessing, I know nothing of the electronics on them at all.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Gary I didn't notice it until I looked at the dyno charts. Then when I called another shop in southern WI and asked him if he had ever seen this, he too has had a call about the Fed-ex pump on the dyno. I never saw that dyno sheet personally, but he had news of it before I did, and was apologizing too people that he had sold the pumps too... ... ... . because he did not know at the time it would be like that. Now mind you the ones we got were brand new units not rebuilt.

I wonder if it is like the RV pumps where they are limited also... . I am not that familiar with the RV VP, but if I recall they are set at 2200? I am only guessing, I know nothing of the electronics on them at all.

As far as *I* know, NONE of the "Fedex" PCM boards were EVER installed into NEW VP-44's. It has been my impression the Fedex PCM upgrade came about after normal VP-44 production had stopped - but cannot be certain about that. Another confusing bit of info that recently was posted, was that there ARE some new VP-44's still being made - but they are more expensive than the rebuilts, so not as commonly used.



The way one of the popular rebuilders explained the "Fedex" PCM to me during my own VP-44 purchase and replacement, is the issue that originated the needed PCM revision was at the urging of Fedex, who seemed most affected at that point in time several years back, and that once that later PCM was developed by Bosch, ALL VP-44's rebuilt from that time forward were using it - not just a random few scattered around the country.



It was not really a "Fedex", or specific board used only in a few selected rebuilts, nor do customers have to specifically ask for or pay more for the PCM upgrade, ALL rebuilt VP-44's got them - and the "Fedex" term is just what some of US guy refer to them as - as far as the rebuilders are concerned, it's simply a later revision level of replacement for the VP-44 - much like other mechanical revisions have also been developed and included over the lifespan of the VP-44.



So, if ANY Cummins owner replaced his VP-44 over the affected 2-3 year or so timeframe, they got the "Fedex" PCM whether they actually knew it or not. Obviously, LOTS of VP-44's were rebuilt in that timeframe - and also a fair number of Drag Comps and similar boxes whose MAIN added function was to remove the 2700 RPM defueling! THAT'S why I'm surprised this issue is only NOW coming to light...

 

[SpicyJam]

The rev 029 pump that Turbo Tweaker bought was brand new... . 1600. 00 he paid. That was over 2 years ago, I remember helping put it on. Now this truck has been on the dyno several times since then, but I, we were only looking at peak numbers... ... . as most do, not really giving thought about the whole curve and how the operator ran the truck. In March of this year Turbo Tweaker and myself ran the dyno the same day. He sat with the trucks with the operator and watched and coaxed him how to do a pull... ... ... lol, I know it was funy, but lesson learned. Anyway, with both trucks ran the same, we had them lay over past rans from that day, plus last Oct, and the year before that. All show the same result, my truck with the stock my rev 028 pump and the HRVP all pulled well past 3000rpm. His on the other hand all fall short of 2800rpm, well actually at 2700 the curve falls right off.

Silverram323 is the other rev 030 out there, that one was a reman, I think, but his dyno run is on file at HiTech and it also showed the same result.

When I get more info on this VP from Brady, Gary you are first on my list to share it with. Thanks Jim.

As far as *I* know, NONE of the "Fedex" PCM boards were EVER installed into NEW VP-44's. It has been my impression the Fedex PCM upgrade came about after normal VP-44 production had stopped - but cannot be certain about that. Another confusing bit of info that recently was posted, was that there ARE some new VP-44's still being made - but they are more expensive than the rebuilts, so not as commonly used.



The way one of the popular rebuilders explained the "Fedex" PCM to me during my own VP-44 purchase and replacement, is the issue that originated the needed PCM revision was at the urging of Fedex, who seemed most affected at that point in time several years back, and that once that later PCM was developed by Bosch, ALL VP-44's rebuilt from that time forward were using it - not just a random few scattered around the country.



It was not really a "Fedex", or specific board used only in a few selected rebuilts, ALL rebuilt VP-44's got them - and the "Fedex" term is just what some of US guy refer to them as - as far as the rebuilders are concerned, it's simply a later revision level of replacement for the VP-44 - much like other mechanical revisions have also been developed and included over the lifespan of the VP-44.



So, if ANY Cummins owner replaced his VP-44 over the affected 2-3 year or so timeframe, they got the "Fedex" PCM whether they actually knew it or not. Obviously, LOTS of VP-44's were rebuilt in that timeframe - and also a fair number of Drag Comps and similar boxes whose MAIN added function was to remove the 2700 RPM defueling! THAT'S why I'm surprised this issue is only NOW coming to light...

 

[CCahill]

Interesting reading... and because of this... I called Edge today, as they were doing a normal update on my Comp box... and had them reprogram it into a Drag box... . $125 extra and no defueling in sight... It's likely I won't even use it. . . Since I bought the Comp box in 01, I usally keep it on 2/2 anyway... . unless I'm towing heavy... but at least I know I have the capability... .

 

[lsenus]

Where is the part number located on the pump? Can it be seen when installed?

 

[BBliss]

on the drivers side of the pump below the supply and return fittings, the part number is 10 digits and they are the biggest numbers there. Yes they can be seen when installed.

 

[SpicyJam]

Gary, I just got off the phone with Industrial Injection. It was about the so called 029 Fed-ex pump. Here is what I did and got back as far as feed back.

The pump that I told you we saw start defuleing gave us a 216 code heading to IRP this year. I had Brady overnight me a HRVP44 for this guy. Well when I sent in the core I got a call stating if I knew what this pump was. I replied and said, "yes it is the 029 Fed-ex pump that we bought new 3yrs ago". Well needless to say I have to wonder if I am going to get the core charge back for the customer... ..... one because it did have a little damage to the end of the drive shaft from trying to use a improper puller. Mainly though there is nothing that they can do with it. Meaning, first they have a bunch of these pumps sitting around, and being it is what they called a "mid range" pump, it is worthless in our applications. It does defuel at 2700 and there is no changing that, that is in the pump. Just cause you slap a new PSG into it does not change it. Although it can be rebuilt there is no demand for that one. While I knew it was a POS pump after seeing run on a dyno, I was only reaffirmed that the pump is worthless, he said, "even if didn't have the little bit of damage on the shaft, they would not have rebuilt it anyway"... ... ... ... ... that is how worthless it is.

I just wanted to pass the info along... ... ... . since I just hung up with them. Now to pass the news on to the customer.

That is why I stated that we had a true Fed-Ex pump brand new. Now the PSG being dropped into our 027 cases for a rebuild maybe 029 PSG's but from what I understand the true Fed-ex program is not in our case... ..... hope I make some sense... ..... this is getting lenghty.



See ya guys, Jim.