Here I am

What did Jesus write??

Attention: TDR Forum Junkies
To the point: Click this link and check out the Front Page News story(ies) where we are tracking the introduction of the 2025 Ram HD trucks.

Thanks, TDR Staff

Who's the daddy? Me, in 35 weeks!

05 Gto

Ol'TrailDog said:
Even though Jesus didn't take pen in hand literally, since he was a man with the Spirit of God indwelling, he did inspire men to write the 66 books canonized as scripture.



2 Peter 1:21 - For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.



2 Timothy 3:16 - All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:



Read and pray for if you do :



Luke 11:10 - For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.



tractorface:



I am quoting the above post in answer to your question about how we know that the writings are accurate. It does take considerable faith to accept and believe the scripture. To a large degree, this faith is not something that can be explained. I guess it's kind of like love, you know it when you have it.



I appreciate your openess to ask these questions and look for the input from the TDR members.
 
I can appreciate that to some degree.

I understand that. Really science is not much different as we are expected to just accept certain fundamentals that we may not fully understand. I am good with that. The rub is that it seems that some feel if one was not "born into the correct" religion that you are doomed to eternal darkness. I feel certain that documents were intentionally destroyed or altered to fit a certain agenda. That does not mean I do not believe in jesus as there are enough common threads to reasonably conclude that the basic story of Jesus is real History, it is filling in the details that seperate one christian religion from another that proves difficult. Throwing in non-christian religions really makes things difficult. Anyway I think we are on the same page. We got of thread as I knew would happen. My original question was asked because I really did not know if Jesus left behind any writings or not even though I could not imagine that he did not. Some interesting ideas as to why he may not have were presented so I feel I have learned from this thread.

Thanks to all who responded
 
Tractorface-



Although we know of nothing Jesus himself wrote, there is better documentation of his life and teachings than for any other ancient personage. If you are truly interested in pursuing the subject, I’d recommend any or all of the following (both written by men who began writing as total skeptics)—“More Than a Carpenter” and “Evidence That Demands a Verdict” by Josh McDowell; or “The Case For Christ” by Lee Strobel. They are available at Barnes and Noble or Amazon.com.



Gene
 
"born into the correct" religion



The "correct" religion becomes a major stumblingblock to many people. In the New Testament you will see that the teachings, miracles, and other works of Jesus was a major stumblingblock to the Pharisees and Sadducees - the elite Jewish religious sects.



Knowing Jesus Christ in a personal relationship is not about a religion. It is about forgiveness through faith via the grace that God provides in Jesus Christ.



There is not a church, mosque, cathedral, or religious group inside any of those that can obtain salvation for you.



Paul, who WAS at one time a Jewish religious zealot before his conversion on the Damascus road, wrote in Ephesians 2:8&9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God. Not of works, lest any man should boast.
 
klenger said:
tractorface:It does take considerable faith to accept and believe the scripture. To a large degree, this faith is not something that can be explained. I guess it's kind of like love, you know it when you have it.



Amen Brother!! Nor can the greatness of god be explained or fully understood by man. Being the beginning, end and the creator of the universe and beyond takes abilities beyond the scope of human comprehension. It is like trying to explain nuclear physics to a baby and expecting him to understand. You must make a "leap of faith" and accept the bible as it is literally written.



Tractorface, I pray that you find the answers you need to discover a relationship with him as the fullness and completeness it gives you are truly miraculous and awe inspiring.



Thanks



Phil
 
He "wrote" the sermon on the mount, Mt5. John 21:25, says he did so many other things that it was impossible to write them all down. Heb 10:7 says he is "in the volume of the book, it is written of me", the WHOLE Bible is written concerning Messiah. Mt 5:17, "think not that I am come to detroy (change, possibly re-write) the LAW but to FULFILL, his mission wasnt to write a new book but to fulfill the prophecy written of him. A word of caution, Mt 22:29, even though he was answering an unrelated question the warning still applies, to be careful and not err because of not knowing the scripture ( which is his mission to FULFILL propehcy ). Just my 2 sheckels worth.



Furthermore, he didnt need to write anything, the world is still talking about his LIFE and his ACTIONS.
 
Sorry guys

Can't just accept that. Does not mean I believe you are wrong just means I need to know more. See I believe in Jesus and Evolution, and for some reason that makes me some sort of wacko. As science uncovers new and astounding truths we need to continually adjust our way of thinking, otherwise we may as well all send in our "Flat earth society" dues. Remember when religious leaders believed the earth was the center of the universe.

Think about it this way, if you born into an ancient Mayan family and you just took a leap of faith, you might find yourself on top af an alter tearing out the heart of a live victim in the name of your faith.

Or what about all these folks we see on TV rocking back and forth chanting hateful things about Christians, the faith they follow has them hell bent on destroying you because of what you believe. If we stop trying to learn we are in danger of falling into the same trap that a person in Palestine who would strap explosives to thier chest in hopes of of meeting the 72 virgins waiting for them on the other side, fell into. I can't do that.

Again I am not saying the bible is untrue or anything remotely like that, all I am saying is there are puzzle pieces missing. Every time we find another piece we need to look at the puzzle again. God gave us a brain why not use it.

Thanks for all of the input it is appreciated. I really am closer to the opinions here than you might think. :)
 
tractorface said:
"Really science is not much different as we are expected to just accept certain fundamentals that we may not fully understand. "



There ya go tractorface. :cool:



IMHO, the deeper one digs into science, the more faith one must have. For a personal example: After sweating through two semesters of organic chemistry in undergrad school - on the last day of lectures - the prof (Hagar the Horrible) said, "By the way, there's one more concept we need to cover. " Then he explained the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle and closed by stating that everything he'd jammed down our throats would have to be taken on faith. Made sense to me.



A friend of mine, a former USAF test pilot, is a nuclear research physicist. In addition, he's one of the most devout fundamentalist Christians I've ever had the pleasure of talking with. During one of our conversations he explained the scientific basis for his belief that fundamentalism and Darwin's theory are completely compatible. Again, made sense to me.
 
Or what about all these folks we see on TV rocking back and forth chanting hateful things about Christians, the faith they follow has them hell bent on destroying you because of what you believe.



Sounds like a test to me... ... ... the Devil will try to lure you in any way he can... ... . just turn on the T. V. or do a search on the net... ... . it's there and they even advertise about how many sins or commandments are broken... ... sick.



I'd hate to know I had to walk through this life without God, faith and my Church family, most of the time it's the only positive influence I get, but I get plenty of negative influence from work.



Jim
 
Any time I have been to church, or around church goers, all I see is little cliques of who loves Jesus more? Like its a competition to get into Heaven.

Give more money, more time, more money, more effort, more money.



I'm sure there is at least one Church in this country, that isn't like that, but I have yet to find it.



I'll stick to following my own beliefs, and avoid organised religion. They are untrustworthy at best. This is backed up, by every other preacher telling you what the Bible says, in his view. And it seems they always twist the meaning back around to give money to the church!!!

There is something WRONG with that.
 
Whoa, something I agree with Sled Puller on! Talk about miracles! For myself, I don't think Jesus left any writings. Doesn't mean he didn't write anything while he was around, just that I don't think any of it survived. To the poster who said Jesus was either lunatic, liar or saviour - I say he was none of the above. He was, first and foremost, a teacher. If you want to see him as saviour, that's fine by me... I doubt you'd get anyone in here to go with liar or lunatic. But the man was a great teacher.
 
Actually, lon, Jesus said "I am the way, the truth and the life. No man cometh to the Father but by me. " He also told the Pharisees, "Before Moses was, I AM. " He asked his disciples who they thought he was - the response Peter gave him was "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the Living God" to which Jesus' response was "Blessed art thou, Peter... . "



So, the claim that Jesus was just "a good man" or "a good teacher" and nothing more really doesn't stand up. He is either Lord, lunatic or liar.



Rusty
 
And if the Bible got it wrong or was mistranslated along the way? Sorry, I still go with teacher. Not saviour, not liar, not lunatic. You are welcome to think as you will ('cause I know this becomes a very hot-button issue for the believers very quickly), it's just not my belief.
 
Amazing

The crazy thing about this thread is how nice everybody plays together here. I have read transmission threads where guys just carved one another up. It really is nice to have a healthy discussion about such a passionate topic without becoming mean :)

Thanks
 
Oh, oh... . look who just showed up. :-{} :-laf



“More Than a Carpenter” and “Evidence That Demands a Verdict” by Josh McDowell; or “The Case For Christ” by Lee Strobel. They are available at Barnes and Noble or Amazon.com.



And if the Bible got it wrong or was mistranslated along the way? Sorry, I still go with teacher. Not saviour, not liar, not lunatic. You are welcome to think as you will ('cause I know this becomes a very hot-button issue for the believers very quickly), it's just not my belief.



Tractor, If you really have an interest I think Gene's suggested reading is a good beginning. I would add "Mere Christianity" by CS Lewis. McDowell addresses the common "so many translations" excuse quite well as he points out there is no other document that has the historic authentification the Bible does because there are SO many copies of the transcripts used to produce the Bible - it is unlike any other written work on the earth. He also addresses the "discrepancy between transcripts" error quite well also.



Having said that I would also point out the track record of Science is pretty dismal. Flat earth, earth the center of the solar system, spontaneous generation from rotting meat is where flies come from, and so forth just scratches the surface.



Similar to RT66DOC, I had a geomorphology professor spend a month explaining how "hill and ravine landscapes" were formed. Prof David Alt at the U of Montana was and incredible prof who I called the "great story teller" because he would draw amazing landscapes/earth profile 3D slices on the blackboard in colored chalk while delivering a lecture. He started out explaining how the hill and ravine landscapes were formed and we would dutifully take notes... . then he would say "Then such and such came along and demonstrated why the first theory could not possible be because..... " Then he would spend the second week explaining the new theory, only to repeat the "Then such and such came along and demonstrated why the first theory could not possible be because..... " all over again. This went on for a month and we are thinking about all the worthless notes we have been taking. Finally, he confessed we just do not know how hill and ravine landscapes arre formed.



So one day in lab I asked him "Dr. Alt we can look out the window at Mt. Sentinel's hill and ravine landscape and are not able to explain its genesis... . and yet you want me to believe in the Big Bang theory. " He laughed and said "I try not to get into that". :D



Anyway, my usual response to the "translations" excuse is to say "I don't really care what translation you use... pick one and obey it... whether its the JW, Mormon, Readers Digest condensed, KJV, NIV... etc, etc, etc. Check it out when the apostles were asked "What shall we do?" The response was and is:



"Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.



Is God calling you? :eek:



Sorry about the long rant.
 
Oops, had another brainstorm in the middle of night. Perhaps I can get this posted before Steve, who has been watching this thread like a small boy with a magnify glass watching ants, snuffs it. :-laf



Actally, Jesus wrote the first set of 10 commandments - on tablets of stone. Since Jesus was God incarnate he did the writing: "Before Abraham was I am" or "To whit, God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself", "... and the Word was God... and the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us. "



Therefore, all I need to do is keep the ten commandments - piece of cake. :) Oh,... I messed up a time or two... okay, maybe more than a time or two. :( Sorry buddy, guess I will have to be responsible for the consequences of MY decisions and actions. :--)



Nope, sorry, ... . "X made me do it " just doesn't fly. Furthermore, I was given the opportunity to delve into, read, study, ask questions, and most importantly pray. But I thought it was much more noble and fun to :-{} and to pontificate, to prescribe to God just how he could do it better, or how disappointed I was in Him because he just doesn't want to do it My Way. You know, the old excuse routine :{ Heck, reminds me of ol' Ponitus Pilate in his best softly modulated NPR voice questioning "What is truth?" How noble.



Geeeze, maybe you are just like me and need a propitiation... a

*******************************SAVIOR************************ Oo.



PS: I think the Josh McDowells books also do a very good job of answering why Christianity and not X?
 
While we have never found any documents that were written by Jesus, undoubtedly He was a learned man - the New Testament accounts of his Jewish scholarship bear ample witness that He was literate. As a subject of the Roman empire, He would have been subject to the tax laws and required to appear at the tax office just like Joseph and Mary were called down to Bethlehem at the time of His birth - this, in addition to His occupation as a carpenter prior to beginning His ministry, indicate that He would have left behind many day-to-day documents (entries in tax logs, receipts, etc). Perhaps someday someone will find a tax roll with His name written on it.



During the time of Jesus, it was a custom for Jews to write prayers on small strips of parchment or silver, and put them into jewelry etc for a friend or loved one - an example of this is discussed in a recent issue of Biblical Archaeology magazine. Such small documents were also enclosed in small boxes for use in worship, some that were worn, some that were mounted on doorways etc (like the modern day tefillim and mezuzah). Students of the scribes and synagogue teachers also performed much rote copywork, and provided copies of the Bible books etc to their families. Finally, the Jews of the time often had prayers inscribed onto stone, furniture etc - for example, if you visit the Wailing Wall today you can see prayers carved into the huge blocks that were once part of King Solomon's temple.



With these examples in mind, it is highly probable that Jesus left behind many traces of His existence - as a carpenter and a learned man, He would have had ample opportunity to make furniture, jewelry boxes, the enclosures for the small scrolls - examples could be in museums today without us even knowing. Perhaps someday something will be found - in the last century, we have found the Dead Sea scrolls, the ossuary of Caiaphas, possibly the ossuary of St. James (brother of Jesus) - so anything is possible even at this late date.



We have to remember though, that Jesus was a persecuted and hated man at the end of His life. The Sanhedrin had Him executed, and both they and the Romans wanted to prevent a cult from forming around Him after His death and Resurrection. Sadly the ancient folks had a systematic process for eliminating mention of such troublesome individuals, they would destroy documents, remove names from inscriptions, destroy statues, build churches to their own gods on top of sites holy to others - few stones would have been left unturned by the authorities of the day to suppress Jesus' message and followers. Anything that the Jewish priests might have gathered into the Temple would likely have been destroyed around 70 AD when the Romans turned the Temple into a pile of rubble.



It is possible that some relics could have survived deep underneath Temple Mount, when the Crusaders took over Jerusalem 1,000 years after Christ they excavated and built on the site, and some Temple-period works were still intact below the surface. Sadly the Muslims control Temple Mount today, and they have been very busy destroying many important areas to expand their mosques - for example, the underground area known as Solomon's Stables has been converted into a mosque. They refuse to cooperate with Jewish and Christian authorities and archaeologists, so the extent of the damage remains unknown.



I cannot tell you of a single word that Jesus wrote on a document that you can see for yourself, but I can tell you with 100% sincerity that when I finally "got it" and accepted Him for real, He engraved upon my heart the image of the life I should live and the kind of man that I should be.



I just wish I was man enough to fulfill the vision that He has for me. I fail frequently, and often spectacularly, but I keep on plugging. He has given me one heck of a target to shoot for, I just have to keep working on my marksmanship :D :D :D



PS - As far as churches, organized religion etc - no matter what style of coaching or support a man prefers, in the end only he himself is setting the sights and pulling the trigger. Set your sights on the right target, keep your focus, and don't worry about the rest. People may disagree with your technique or your style, but if YOU hit that target - they can't argue with results! :-laf :-laf I have been a Baptist all my life, used to tease my Granny and preacher by asking them if they would be disappointed when they got to Heaven and found a bunch of other people there :-laf :-laf They told me, "I don't care what path they take, as long as they arrive... . " ;)
 
On the giving (tithing) end it's a little hard to swallow for allot of people, to me a way to look at it is it's a business and that business needs income, it's very true that 20% of the people give 80% of the money, but it's also true that 20% of the people do 80% of the work. There are people these days that just flat can't give there 10% because they have mouths to feed but there are those that have 2 new $50,000 cars and a $150,000 house and say they can't give anything. To people that really can't give there tithe give your time instead and support on that end, I like the fact of being able to give in both ways and if I had a family the truck would go away before the Church would... ... priorities.



Jim
 
So you think you actions are buying your way into heaven Jim? :confused:



Does the Bible put a price on how much to extort... , I mean, give to the church?

If it does, I find that interesting.



If it doesn't, then it is a man made deal, and somebody is benefitting from it, and I highly doubt in most cases, it is the downtrodden, or God.
 
Back
Top