Here I am

Competition What happens when you make more power than your drivetrain can tollerate.

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Competition How much horsepower does this have?

Actually... . ya know what... . I'm going to partially agree with Comp.



Now before you guys think I'm nuts... .



Think about this... Lets say your putting down 1000lbs of torque at the rear wheels in a 1:1 ratio... Pretty cool...



Now throw your T-case in LOW range... . and First Gear! What is the TORQUE MULTIPLICATION?



Ok now Launch this Drag Truck in 1st gear... what is the multlipcation there?



You guys are compairing apples to oranges... . But Comp has a very valid point.



The Sled pullers are using a higher rate of multiplication therefore harder on parts than Drag Racers..... or are they... . Sled pullers spin the tires... . Drag Racers dont..... Humm... . The debate lives on!





Josh
 
LPreston said:
Greg,



If the angle was the issue, why have we been able to run 2 seasons (almost EVERY weekend) with not a problem? The only 2 times we have had yoke failures is when Keating "cranked it up a notch" at the line. Are we exceeding the capability of the parts at that point? Does it exceed the "load" capacity of the chassis? It just seems to me if it were pinion angle, we would have constant failures which is just not the case.



Keating has a great resource here in Knoxville with a Pro Mod crew chief who has been all over the truck and has seen it run numerous times and I believe has reviewed the pinion angle and 4 link setup.



how new/old are the heim joints? i am not saying this IS the problem, but your chassi is taking a LOT of power. as you already know time fatigue and repation fatuige is a B!tch. i personaly am saying this COULD be a starting point. i also THINK (as i have NO drag exp at all, diesel or gas) that your U-joint is too small. custom parts would be required to put what I PERSONALY would want in there. i would go with a joing out of a Dana 135 ( IIRC thats one of the medium duty truck axles, maybe im WAY off but picture the U-joints in a 4 car flat bed tow truck) the problem with this would be now your weak point is the custom flange that would have to be made. then you would risk grenading a custom part vice an off the shelf part. spares galore, and i think if made right the life cycle would be WAY higher on the one off flange than the current u-joint being used.



once again, i can say i have no experience to back this, and the couple LBS being gained might not be worth going THAT large.

Grant
 
First, thanks for serving our country.



Don't know how old he heims are, but I do know that they had been gone thru earlier this year. There are several ideas up on the board. One is being implemented now... . should that not work, there is a back up. One thats going to make heads spin. :eek:



As far as the size of the joints, there is nothing bigger in drag racing except for the new MW units being released first of the year. The ones that failed are not a Napa part... . MW all the way (which is basically custom).



GWBourne said:
how new/old are the heim joints? i am not saying this IS the problem, but your chassi is taking a LOT of power. as you already know time fatigue and repation fatuige is a B!tch. i personaly am saying this COULD be a starting point. i also THINK (as i have NO drag exp at all, diesel or gas) that your U-joint is too small. custom parts would be required to put what I PERSONALY would want in there. i would go with a joing out of a Dana 135 ( IIRC thats one of the medium duty truck axles, maybe im WAY off but picture the U-joints in a 4 car flat bed tow truck) the problem with this would be now your weak point is the custom flange that would have to be made. then you would risk grenading a custom part vice an off the shelf part. spares galore, and i think if made right the life cycle would be WAY higher on the one off flange than the current u-joint being used.



once again, i can say i have no experience to back this, and the couple LBS being gained might not be worth going THAT large.

Grant
 
I believe that drag racers and pullers absorb power thru suspention, tire pressure and clutch tuning to give them the bite off the line but not too much so they wont go up in smoke. It might be a trade off!
 
here is what I run , never failed yet , 1. 18 60 foots with 2. 75 G's on launch . the only thing I have changed since this picture is the Electric shocks , thanks to Jerry Bickel, he has been helping me, on the new shock set up . he was really proud of being the chassiss builder of the worlds fastest Diesel truck. my truck also has a aluminum drive shaft. with the Mark Willams billet U joints
 
Mention was made that the u-joints in question were the largest in the industry. Maybe the industry (drag racing) is not keeping up with drive train strength to match the fast development of engine power. This is one of the biggest issues with the light to heavy duty truck markets. The engine power development is moving faster than the drive train manufatures can keep up with.



One other issue I have run into, even with low power output that I am used to, is sometimes items are made "too hard" as in the billit u-joint, or axles, or input shafts. They will break under shock, rather then "give or bend".





"NICK"
 
NIsaacs said:
Mention was made that the u-joints in question were the largest in the industry. Maybe the industry (drag racing) is not keeping up with drive train strength to match the fast development of engine power. ". "NICK"



The U- joints of the highest hp machines , that still use U- joints are Blown Pro Mods . these cars have almost twice the torque of any Drag Racing diesel. And if the suspension is set up right then the failure rate is almost Zero.

I talked with the engineers of the manufactory, and with several other people , including Jerry Bickel , everyone’s position is the U- Joint failed from a misalignment , I am taking this position , because some one has to present the other side , and not let a incident , be attributed to the manufactory. If I was negative towards my competition , I would remain silent , and let them continue to break parts , or put ridiculously bigger , heavier , less efficient parts in their truck, and thereby slowing them down. I do not take that position , but live up to the spirit of the Professional License I hold , and try and impart some of the knowledge bank I have been lucky enough to acquire.



George Cathy builds or designs 99% of every fabricated rear end that goes in to a Pro Stock , or Pro Mod car running now He is in the group I usually go to lunch with on Fridays . When he got in the suburban to go to lunch , the pictures of the broken drive shaft were on the seat , his comment before he even heard the story , was drive line misalignment.



In phasing U-Joints and drive lines in a drag racing vehicles there are many things to considers, first the position of the motor in the frame . Most people , including myself , until it was explained to me believe that the motor should be in level with the chassis, but in reality it needs to be in with the front down 3 degrees . this is critical in the phasing of the U- Joint. Second the various suspensions components must be rigid enough to resist the action of the stressor placed on them when the load is placed on them . Example the rear end housing needs to have braces both inside and out , and is a very critical element of this equation. The four links need to be big enough to resist flex , the rear tree { the rear frame construction } in a pro car is one of the most critical elements in keeping the frame and rear suspension in the right alignment if any of these things give ,even a small amount , the results are as I believe happen here.



I am not trying to demean Keating’s team, I believe they are making big strides in running their truck with the handicaps they have to overcome. But to shed light of the knowledge bank that I have available in the guys I hang around with. Remember its not always the sum of your knowledge , but the sum of Knowledge you have available on speed dial.



Warren Johnson once told me when I first started to race for G. M. PERFORMANCE Parts in My Comp Dragster , and wanted his help in the advice department , that he had two rules when it came to his help.

First: don’t ask a question you already know the answer to,

Second: don’t ask a question you don’t understand the answer too.



In conclusion , torque is torque , a diesel make torque at a different Rpm then a gas motor , but the result after you properly process it thru gears and converters must be the same at the tail shaft of the transmission if you want to go fast , diesel don’t have any miraculous power , or abilities , nor are they handicapped , they just make power , and you must utilize it to the best ability to get it down the race track, you still have to incur the same tire speed with in 4 frames in the pass, to make the chassis work.
 
COMP461 said:
Remember its not always the sum of your knowledge , but the sum of Knowledge you have available on speed dial.



Agreed. One of the guys Keating has is the crew chief of one of the fastest Pro Mods in the US who has looked the truck over in addition to the chassis builder and several others who I don't need to qualify.



The driveline was discussed with Mark Williams tech folk.



Keatings personal reference material includes the Jerry Bickle software packages among others which he has reviewed and made changes from (thats how he got the truck to hook after IRP).



The truck has been run almost 2 full seasons (almost every weekend) without failure (until Keating tries to make the truck leave on kill).



Without seeing the truck in person and actually laying hands and eyes on it to me is like a doctor trying to diagnose a patient over the phone... there is a reason he has an exam room... . in my personal opinion.
 
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COMPS conclusion: Keatings knowledge bank is lacking compared to COMPs.



And Greg, I think you had room to drop at least one more name in your post, it seemed lacking.
 
Sled Puller said:
COMPS conclusion: Keatings knowledge bank is lacking compared to COMPs.



And Greg, I think you had room to drop at least one more name in your post, it seemed lacking.





sleddie your like the hyper active kid in class who cut’s up , that buzzes around , annoying people , you have nothing to ever to add constructively , and never seem to have a clue to what is going on , so rather then setting back and learning something , you want all the attention off your total lack of subject mater knowledge.
 
COMP461 said:
here is what I run , never failed yet , 1. 18 60 foots with 2. 75 G's on launch . the only thing I have changed since this picture is the Electric shocks , thanks to Jerry Bickel, he has been helping me, on the new shock set up . he was really proud of being the chassiss builder of the worlds fastest Diesel truck. my truck also has a aluminum drive shaft. with the Mark Willams billet U joints



nice rear ya got there... a little off topic, but waht is the ratio in that?

Grant
 
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GWBourne said:
nice rear ya got there... a little off topic, but waht is the ratio in that?

Grant

Semper Fi fellow Jarrhead





I run a 9. 5 inch low drag 2. 73 rear gear in a Strange A/FD type pressure oiled case 40 spline Titanium axels , aluminum spool , and a 40 spline aluminum yoke with carbon fiber brakes and rotors . the housing is a George Cathy masterpiece done in Titanium plate.
 
Ok , Comp, with your vast array of knowledge available, why would the joint break now, it it has been run at the same angle now for 2 years? Unless something changed via angle of drive-line, another mod placed that may have changed something in the suspension that would change the angle... ... ( providing nothing else has changed ) ... . why all of a sudden would there be a problem now ?



I mean this in a constructive way... ... . :)



The one thing now I have been consistently hearing from LPreston is that he left "on kill". Up until now, it appears that he hasn't left in that manner, but since he did, the part broke. If nothing else has changed, maybe the angle of the drive-line hasn't been flexed since now... . as the joint in question hasn't seen that much stress yet, or put the drive-line in a position it hasn't seen before. Possible?
 
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COMP461 said:
In phasing U-Joints and drive lines in a drag racing vehicles there are many things to considers, first the position of the motor in the frame . Most people , including myself , until it was explained to me believe that the motor should be in level with the chassis, but in reality it needs to be in with the front down 3 degrees . this is critical in the phasing of the U- Joint. Second the various suspensions components must be rigid enough to resist the action of the stressor placed on them when the load is placed on them . Example the rear end housing needs to have braces both inside and out , and is a very critical element of this equation. The four links need to be big enough to resist flex , the rear tree { the rear frame construction } in a pro car is one of the most critical elements in keeping the frame and rear suspension in the right alignment if any of these things give ,even a small amount , the results are as I believe happen here.



... Remember its not always the sum of your knowledge , but the sum of Knowledge you have available on speed dial.



Now thats a good post. :) Thanks Comp.

Another way to put that last part is, "Surround yourself with people smarter than you, it takes the pressure off. " :-laf



Another question... how do you gauge chassis flex at launch and arrive at a optimal pinion angle? How do you know if the chassis or suspension components are flexing/torquing out of spec? Besides breakage? Is there a theory or test?

A general answer is fine, it need not pertain to the incident at hand.



Now for Git's question, a good one at that... Maybe "kill" mode is stressing that chassis in ways we've never seen?? Maybe whats blurred in that picture has added so much power we're tweaking arms and such. It sounds like Keating planted the buttox(wouldn't let me say it) a good one about a millisecond before it upchucked that shaft. :cool: (The use of "we" above does not imply any official offiliation with KM. Just "we're" all trying to think this one through. )



Preston, keep us up to date as to the progress if you would. It'll let us know how us "resident doctors" are doing on this long distance diagnosis.
 
lets get into chassis life cycle and expectancy.....



How long does your average chassis last for a top fuel drag car... .

(i have no clue, just pointing out some obvious things... kinda... maybe?)

the answer to this question can be a done. the sport has been around so long and changes in the past few years have not been leaps and bounds. torque is high, weight is average and HP is on the WOW side. granted it would be an "on average the chassis lasts ... yadda yadda yadda long" answer.



How long does a chassis last in a Diesel Drag truck?

hmm, has the sport been around on a constant level long enough to say? the sport has been advancing so fast in the past few years that parts some time can not keep up. i do admit this did happen on the gasser side as well, when i dont know... but i am sure it happened.



am i saying a fatigued chassis or suspension setup WAS the cause? NO!! not by any means. im just brain storming outloud. i am also sure all race teams that have some extra $. 00 laying around in thier heads know to inspect and HOW to inspect EVERYTHING as needed. Quality Assurance. the root of all evil and the savior of life at the same time.





Comp, thanks for the post about the rear end. i would have thought it much larger than that, but a fabricated rear is tons stronger than a slip tube and the material used is also far better.

Always Flexible to you as well... :-laf

Grant
 
Ok , lets assume that the truck remained constant , meaning that heim joints did not gain slack , from 100 or so runs , remember that a 100 runs is all the Pro will run a car before trading it off. This doesn’t mean the car is junk, but that the heim joint in the four link need to replaced ,and in a pro car they measure a good run from a bad run in thousands of a second.

Ok what could cause the truck or the sum of its parts to distort more and break the U joint.

First the different in tune up on the motor and the power the motor dose not come in to play in the first . 10 of a second , and this is where they say they are breaking parts. They leave way up in rpm’s and the motor has no torque there anyway. So lets look else where.



Consider that they were just on the edge of introducing enough flex in the chassis and other components before having enough misalignment to breaking them . Lets first start with their attempted to work on the starting line. A few crew chief theory’s on getting more out of the starting line in a Stick car is trying to lock up the clutch sooner .

First a drag racing clutch works is several different ways , you have BASE , or the preset clamping load that is there when you let off the peddle . next you have COUNTER , or the centrifugal clamping pressure the counter weights apply as you gain in RPM.

A lot of guys will put more Base in the clutch , meaning more static clamp load on the starting line , this along with the possibility that they are running a heavy flywheel would put a huge shock load on the tires. The tires now dead hook , and the chassis will not work with that much load all at once , so the chassis then unloads about . 3 seconds in to the run , causing the tires to spin, to the untrained eye this is blowing the tires off almost immediately ,and they go to work trying to get even more traction.

This shows up as pronounced J –HOOK on the drive line graph . Now you believe the truck is eating the tires “ spinning “, well most people associate tire spin with a loss on time. So what some people will do is put more bite in to tires. Lower pressure , stiffen up extension on the shocks , or shorten the BAR this dead locks the tires even worse , and something flexes , and bang.



My solution if I ever run a clutch , would be to run a light fly wheel , and put a fair amount of base in it , airing up the tire , and letting them have a controlled slip off the line , developing tire speed and transition in to a dead hook in the first 5 frames , . 50 seconds this is what every Pro Stocker does . I have several other ways of managing the starting line , and a way of variable Base , but I want give that trick away just yet.



My whole contrition on this deal is don’t blame a part that almost never fails in really big power car , but look at why all of sudden a combination starts hurting it self , and the answer is to always look at the stressors, and how they act on the cars parts. When people make the big misconception that we are making such incredible power that nothing short of the lunacy of the Weasel will hold it in , you get a almost 4000 lbs show truck, that would be handicapped beyond redemption . my whole reason was to impart the knowledge base and shed light on the real reason before some one else goes down that same ridicules path . I guess I should just let them fix problems that don’t really exists , and not give them a few tools necessary to run fast.

4 tenths are a lot to make up
 
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