Engine/Transmission (1994 - 1998) Which plate, 0 or 4?

[Matthug]

Trying to decide which plate is for me, I ground my own but I want to just go ahead and buy a real plate. My goal is atleast 350 RWHP. My current setup is in my sig, here's the additions I want to add eventually-

16 degree timing

HD clutch

191 DV's

16 cm exhuast housing



I might be forgetting something... . oh well if I think of it I'll post. My brother made 375 RWHP with this HX35 on his truck, I plan on putting on a 16cm housing to help with EGT's and top end breathing a little. My stock gov springs I cranked down . 020 more than stock and I have full power to 2800-2900 RPM's which is good enough for me. This engine has 247K on it and I think higher RPM's will kill it quickly.

I may switch to stock 215 HP injectors, I do not like these marines because they make my EGT's high, I can hit 1300 up a long steep hill unloaded. I know the timing and 16cm housing will substantially decrease that, but I am adding 191 DV's so thats a good bit more fuel back in. I will very occasionally tow 8000 pounds, thats only a couple times a year so whenever I tow I can slide the plate back some that doesn't bother me. I do not care about smoke. Let's here some opinions! Thanks.

 

[Forrest Nearing]

ditch the 191's, keep the 370's, use an 18. 5cm housing instead of a 16...



actually, you should just buy a real turbo, but the 18. 5 will flow better than the 16 which flows about the same as a 12cm wastegated housing.

 

[Matthug]

I only have 300's not 370's, and I don't like the shuttering with light throttle at 1100-1400 RPM's. If I had a 96-98 truck I would have 181 DV's from the factory, then I wouldn't worry about it but a 94 came with 131's so there's big improvement going to 191's.

I've also researched the turbine housing, beyond a 16cm housing is pointless because the wheel becomes the restriction. If a 16 CM housing flowed the same as a WG'd 12 than it wouldn't lower EGT's, but it does so therefore it obviously flows more.

 

[Matthug]

Anybody have any input whether 4 or 0 plate?

 

[REFLOYD]

go with the 0 it is free

 

[Matthug]

Well I was told that taking a plate to a bench grinder isn't exactly precision, and the pump needs a precise plate to keep your full load and full torque outputs right. Besides, I've been told several different ways to make a 0 plate so I don't know which is right. Some people say full flat, others say not quite down to the bottom. Anybody have a pic of a tst 0 plate?

 

[REFLOYD]

right now i am looking into a number 4 but i better get the trans done soon tough but that will have to wait because i just spent 1200 on brakes and wheel hubs.

 

[Dual EE]

When I was running 300's I had 181 dv's w/no light throttle shuttering. The 181's are also working great w/the 370's.

 

[Matthug]

Yup, I have in my sig I'll buy either 181's or 191's because I know both will work well and are a large upgrade from stock 131's. I even posted a WTB add for 181's but I can't find anybody that upgraded and wants to get rid of their stock DV's.



Right now I'm leaning toward a number 4 plate, but I'm not completely positive yet. Has anyone run both? If so I would really appreciate some input on daily driver driveability for each of them. I'd like to atleast have controllable smoke in case a cop is behind me... . thats always good LOL.

 

[Forrest Nearing]

your ground plate is just fine I'm sure... I didn't realize you had the baby DV's in your pump... 191's will be a nice help.



who told you the 16cm lowered EGT's vs. the 12cm gated? I've never heard that. Always heard the EGT's were the same, the 16 just spooled slower.



an 18. 5 will flow better than a 16

 

[tshort]

If you can remove and reinstall your pump, you should just take it to a pump shop. My 95 was done by a pump shop and ran awesome after that, my EGT's were definitely controllable, I never could get them above 1400, with a 4K Gov. Spring Kit, and stock turbo. Didn't switch inj. or DVs either. That truck was definitely above 300 hp. Just a thought.

Ryan

 

[Matthug]

your ground plate is just fine I'm sure... I didn't realize you had the baby DV's in your pump... 191's will be a nice help.



who told you the 16cm lowered EGT's vs. the 12cm gated? I've never heard that. Always heard the EGT's were the same, the 16 just spooled slower.



an 18. 5 will flow better than a 16

Direct quote from TST-

1994 and later 6BT engines were factory equipped with a 12 cm2 wastegated turbine housing. The 12 cm2 housing typically spools up very rapidly and the maximum boost was easily adjustable to handle power ratings up to 270 horsepower and 675 pound feet of torque. Some 215 horsepower '96-'98 manual Rams run extremely high exhaust gas temperatures due to their poor breathing at 2500 plus rpm at 280 horsepower and higher. The 12 cm2 housing is so small at this power and engine speed that it creates excessive back pressure in the exhaust manifold causing poor airflow. The restriction is in the turbine housing thus changing exhaust pipes and mufflers do very little to help. By changing to the 16 cm2 non-wastegated turbine housing on these engines, breathing is improved permitting higher power and lower exhaust temperatures.

http://www.tstproducts.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=5





Here's another diesel place-

http://www.relentlessdiesel.com/store/agora.cgi?p_id=018





And I suppose a 21 will flow better than an 18. 5? The answer is no because once past the 16 cm housing on an HX35 the pinwheel becomes the restriction and running a larger housing is pointless.

 

[Forrest Nearing]

And I suppose a 21 will flow better than an 18. 5? The answer is no because once past the 16 cm housing on an HX35 the pinwheel becomes the restriction and running a larger housing is pointless.

then why does a 21 spool slower than an 18. 5? you can't have slower spool AND the same choke point... it's simple physics...



every real world post I've seen on TDR from 2nd gen guys using 16cm housings said they saw no reduction in EGT's, just slower spool up.



YMMV

 

[therabbittree]

i have HX55 with a 22 housing i wonder how that would feel or drive. on my new '96 . right now it is a big turbo on my old truck with a hy9 as the small one..... I think I may try it as single. . i have a # 4 plate and lazer cut enterprise d valves sititng here waiting for me to do a clutch hehe

later

Deo

 

[Andy Redmond]

The 16 housing will help on EGT's a bit (say maybe 100-150 deg. in my experience) over the 12cm2 (oem). Will it still get sky high with lots of fuel? Yes, but it takes it a little longer to get there which allows your right foot to add fuel for a bit longer than before, thus it popularity with many.



With the pump mods you suggest, I think you have plenty of fuel to overcome any spooling off the line.



Hmm are you sure you have 131's in the manual trans truck, remove the throttle plate from the pump and get the Bosch number and have your bosch shop ck. this out for sure, before springing for the delivery valves.



Search the archives for a post "this ram roars" or "95 Ram roars" by Joe Donnelly from 2000-2001 era. He listed several "proven" combinations and stated some dyno results to back it up.



Good luck

Andy

 

[Matthug]

then why does a 21 spool slower than an 18. 5? you can't have slower spool AND the same choke point... it's simple physics...



every real world post I've seen on TDR from 2nd gen guys using 16cm housings said they saw no reduction in EGT's, just slower spool up.



YMMV

Because there's more area there for the exhaust to stack up in. Think of it as a straw, you blow in a straw that has a huge beginning but small end it will feel less restricted because it takes half of your breath to fill the straw but it's still the same amount of air coming out the end. Yup thats physics too.



If there was no reduction in EGT's than dealers wouldn't be able to claim EGT reduction, and I know of many people that the 16 lowered EGT's on atleast 100 degrees.



Andy- Well Signal73 just did 191's in his 95' 175 pump and he said he had 131's. Plus the fact that I have the low RPM light throttle shuttering with marine injectors makes me tend to believe I also have 131's. He says his shuttering went away with the 191's.

 

[Matthug]

i have HX55 with a 22 housing i wonder how that would feel or drive. on my new '96 . right now it is a big turbo on my old truck with a hy9 as the small one..... I think I may try it as single. . i have a # 4 plate and lazer cut enterprise d valves sititng here waiting for me to do a clutch hehe

later

Deo

You mean as a single? First off an HX55 would have a T4 flange, you would need an adapter to run it. Second, that turbine is HUGE and so is the pinwheel inside... . you would need to be running atleast 500 HP to spool that decently.

 

[therabbittree]

mummn Thanks for the reply. . i have run 18. 5 cm housing before no problem so i figured a22 wouldn't be that bad ha. . i guess i can use it as a twin on top of my hx35 12. . a towing twin setup... i have the hx 55 on my first gen now as a twin turbo big turbo. . so i've been debating cannibalizing the parts etc... . i wonder if my enterprise lazer cut d valves, a #4 plate, 4k gov springs, and 370s in a 215 pump would spoll the hx55 22 as a single?... i have al that stuff sitting here... .

thanks

Deo

 

[Forrest Nearing]

Because there's more area there for the exhaust to stack up in. Think of it as a straw, you blow in a straw that has a huge beginning but small end it will feel less restricted because it takes half of your breath to fill the straw but it's still the same amount of air coming out the end. Yup thats physics too.

ever held a turbo in your hand? a turbine housing chokes the exhaust passage down to a MUCH smaller size than the minor diameter of the turbine wheel...



think of it as a straw w/ a larger diameter



it's essentially a nozzle... the smaller the nozzle, the higher the pressure on the turbine wheel, quicker spool up, more restriction, higher EGT's (general terms)



I'll leave the 12cm gated vs. 16 non-gated EGT thing up to debate beca;use I haven't actually done the swap, BUT I DID look into it, and found multiple posts saying EGT reduction was all but nonexistant. I'd sooner cut out some of the dividing wall and open up the wastegate hole... a lot less money, quicker spool, and I'd bet good money, the EGT difference would be nill...



but I WILL guarantee that an 18. 5cm housing will flow more exhaust than a 16cm... and depending on how much fuel you're pushing, it WILL lower EGT's over a 16cm, and I will also guarantee that the H1C/HX35 turbine wheel isn't "the" restriction when running a 16cm or larger turbine housing. when the area at the smallest point of the scroll equals the area covered by the minor side of the turbine wheel, then I'll call it the restriction.

 

[Matthug]

You're still only seeing this 2 dimensional. It's not about the minor diameter of the wheel VS turbine scroll size, it's about the pitch of the blades on the turbine wheel not allowing the air to exit. Now if you had the wheel clipped well thats a different story.