Why you don't want to go to the Dealership

[BIGNASTY]

Yup, that's how manufactures like to handle thing, just change the whole component, its not worth it to try and rebuild it. Ive been a tech for 10 years, often when I have to repair a small part like a starter by the time you look at parts and labor it would have been cheaper to replace it, and if its a warranty matter they tech usually has no choice, they have to follow procedure. Not to mention that most components these days aren't meant to be rebuilt, just used and replaced when its worn. HypocriteB seems to have very little understanding how anything works. Not to mention "old school" mechanics working on new common rail computer controlled components is often a bad combo.

And this brings us back to the OP the person said THAT HE NEVER!!!! abused the truck. Well maybe not!! but when the power box or mileage maker, is added and the original program has been changed to WHAT EVER. The parameters of the engine design have been altered, YES some can do it successfully SOME cant. Im a firm believer in LEAVE IT ALONE if you wanted the tire burning power BUY A BIGGER TRUCK, If you wanted a HIGH MILEAGE get something that gets mileage. Correct me if im wrong but the only thing that the BOXES can do is change FUEL DELIVERY AND TIMING? once changed and ran the DAMAGE if any is DONE and cant be removed by the stroke of a computer KEY.



I DONT KNOW FOR SURE? BUT I THINK CUMMINS KNOWS JUST A LITTLE MORE ABOUT THIS MOTOR THAN SOME WIZZ KID WITH A POCKET COMPUTER. if they would have wanted it that way THEY WOULD HAVE MADE IT THAT WAY.



As for the part about old school mechanics working on new technologies????? JMO but I would rather have an OLD SCHOOL mech work on my truck with common sense, than someone out of the BIG BOX MECHANIC SCHOOLS that THINK they know EVERYTHING because they have a diploma AND THE PAYED 30K TO GET IT, some of the best mechanics are the ones that cant read a Chilton's Book and sign their name with an X but know what end of the wrench to use.



BIG

 

[AEdelheit]

On a 6. 7 I would t use a programmer personally, too much money if something goes wrong but on the 2 5. 9's CR's ive had programmers made a huge difference. Cummins has to work withing certain peramiters for emissions and what not so no, I don't think that they can allways make them how they want. Vast Majority of people I know with programmers have no issues unless there being stupid, but I don't blame the programmer for that one.

As far as old school tech, I was referring more to things like cranking injector lines, I've worked with old school techs, don't get me wrong some are the best I've ever seen, but many don't understand the changes to modern engines and are so set in there ways that it makes for a bad combo. Though anyone from a place like wyo tech scares the I TRIED TO BY-PASS THE CUSSING FILTER out of me too! There's a balance of self taught/home learned abilities, common sense, mechanical inclination and the ability to understand and learn different technology's that makes a good tech, and they are getting very very hard to find.
I started at a CAT dealer sweeping floors before I was even out of high school, did the diesel program at the local JC and worked my way up from there.

 

[Bob4x4]

Have YET!!!! to see any Dealership up to and including Class 8 trucks BE ANYTHING OTHER THAN PARTS CHANGERS IN THE LAST 10 YEARS!!!
They dont have time to remove the broken component and rebuild it and then replace it, they REMOVE AND REPLACE WITH LIKE ITEM

YOUNGER GENERATION OR NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!

This has come to be by corporate greed not by techs choice. They want to sell assy's for profits they can pocket. I miss the old days when I could replace a diode instead of a $441 alternator or a starter contact pkg instead of a $750 starter

 

[mwilson]

I follow the words of wisdom from my Dad who can fix anything. Anything. I learned a lot from him and would still like to soak up a bit more while possible.



Follow these words and you can't go wrong... "You can not fix it until you completely understand how it works!"



A modern technician has to be a 50/50 mix of dazzling mechanical talent and gamer worthy computer savvy. If that skill set is not present you have a "parts changer" on your hands.



Mike.

 

[Bob4x4]

I generally dont own anything worthy of taking to a dealer, solves that problem!
Last summer I was working 100+ hour weeks on a big turn around at work when my wife started complaining about a squeaking in the front end of her Mustang. I didnt have the time to look at it, so had her take it to the local Ford dealership with the instructions to repair anything that was questionable and do an alignment when finished with repairs. Lng story short, they told her everything was good and tight but said the alignment was way off. I found that hard to believe because the tires were wearing very well. She said the noise was gone and car felt fine so the issue was soon forgot. Fast forward 3 months she pulling out of a parking lot with the kids in the back when the pass side ball joint seperated and jammed the tire up into the wheel well. I was home sleeping from a long nightshift and luckily she was only right up the road so I got there right away. I didnt want to risk winching the car up on my tilt trailer and cause more damage so I called the dealership and asked them to bring a wheel lift. This was after hours for the dealership and after hearing the story the driver said he had to charge me but to call the manager Monday and he would refund me. So 90 bucks later for less than 2 miles I had my car back in my garage. I replaced the ball joints on both sides but took pictures of everything first. Monday morning I walked in and asked for the manager. He was the most uncooperative A**hole Ive ever dealt with. He wouldnt refund me for the alignment or the tow bill. I felt I was owed both because even though a few months had passed there wasnt even 400 miles put on the car from when they had it and I had the receipt from the alignment to prove it and all the pictures of the car. Needless to say I felt better by the time I walked out because I ripped that guy a new *** when I realized what kind of a jerk he was going to be. I spent the whole weekend steaming over the deal but by the time Monday came I was calmed down and went in trying to be as civil as I could. I only wanted for them to admit to their faults and refund me some money and I basically got told to pound salt. The part that really got me was they eliminated the squeak by spraying oil into the TORN balljoint boot. I know this because I found the residue still on the ball joint and control arm. These are CRITICAL components if there so dry theyre squeaking I for one would replace it! I cant even imagine what would have happened if my wife and kids were driving down the highway when that sucker let loose...
Ultimately I took responsibility for the whole situation because I have always taken a proactive approach on maintenance especially when it comes to the wifes cars and I should have found that torn boot before it got to the point it did.
Lesson learned.....
this was whatever they had sprayed to quiet the squeak down, it was very sticky crap and collected a ton of dirt, road grime, etc.
View attachment 84818
View attachment 84819

JR I understand how it is with the wife's car-finding time etc. But I value my wife enough to make time to see she has a safe car to drive... ... ... ... .
no offense meant-just bustin your balls a bit

 

[Bob4x4]

I follow the words of wisdom from my Dad who can fix anything. Anything. I learned a lot from him and would still like to soak up a bit more while possible.

Follow these words and you can't go wrong... "You can not fix it until you completely understand how it works!"

A modern technician has to be a 50/50 mix of dazzling mechanical talent and gamer worthy computer savvy. If that skill set is not present you have a "parts changer" on your hands.

Mike.

So true... ... ... ... .....


My Dad was in counter inteligence-not so hot in mechanical but great in his field,I got my calling from my Gramps that owned his own Garage as they were called back then

 

[mwilson]

This has come to be by corporate greed not by techs choice. They want to sell assy's for profits they can pocket. I miss the old days when I could replace a diode instead of a $441 alternator or a starter contact pkg instead of a $750 starter

I wonder if that is in part a result of the agreements with the vendors, for example when the starter vendor signs the contract with Chrysler to provide said starter they have a built-in failure rate and it is cost effective to simply change the unit and the vendor takes the hit. Less small parts for Chrysler to catalog, price, purchase and stock at the PDC's.



That is the case for sure while under warranty, even after warranty I wonder if the dealer parts stream may still be the best deal even if overpriced compared to the aftermarket (although I find Mopar parts to be fairly priced for the most part) who lately can't seem to offer anything automotive that is any good.

Look at what BDaughtry just went through with 3 NAPA P/S pumps that were rebuilt without the relief valve even being installed. That cost him money even if the part itself was warranteed.



When Detroit Diesel launched the Alliance rear axles (to compete with Meritor and Eaton) they carried a long warranty and any failures were an automatic return to Detroit Diesel for evaluation. Anything more than a weepy pinion or output shaft seal leak was an R&R. We were not allowed to dis-assemble them. Drove the gear techs nuts watching a forward rear have to replaced when only a pinion bearing was needed.



But, that gave Detroit Diesel complete control and teardown of every failure that occurred at their own facility with all preloads, etc. still intact.



Once I thought about it that was very good thinking and a very proactive approach to refine the new product.



Mike.

 

[Bob4x4]

The parts return to analize the failure has been common in the Dodge world for years in the early stages of that part. Now they are forcing us to return cores when new parts are used in the customer pay jobs also. Not a bad way to build up their core supply but it doesn't look like the pricing has dropped to adjust for the core return

 

[mwilson]

I wonder if that is in part a result of the agreements with the vendors, for example when the starter vendor signs the contract with Chrysler to provide said starter they have a built-in failure rate and it is cost effective to simply change the unit and the vendor takes the hit. Less small parts for Chrysler to catalog, price, purchase and stock at the PDC's.



That is the case for sure while under warranty, even after warranty I wonder if the dealer parts stream may still be the best deal even if overpriced compared to the aftermarket (although I find Mopar parts to be fairly priced for the most part) who lately can't seem to offer anything automotive that is any good.

Look at what BDaughtry just went through with 3 NAPA P/S pumps that were rebuilt without the relief valve even being installed. That cost him money even if the part itself was warranteed.



When Detroit Diesel launched the Alliance rear axles (to compete with Meritor and Eaton) they carried a long warranty and any failures were an automatic return to Detroit Diesel for evaluation. Anything more than a weepy pinion or output shaft seal leak was an R&R. We were not allowed to dis-assemble them. Drove the gear techs nuts watching a forward rear have to replaced when only a pinion bearing was needed.



But, that gave Detroit Diesel complete control and teardown of every failure that occurred at their own facility with all preloads, etc. still intact.



Once I thought about it that was very good thinking and a very proactive approach to refine the new product.



Mike.

I did forget to mention the pesky little issue of the warranty running out and it taking a ful year to get tooling to the dealers and parts in the PDC so that we could repair them... .

But Hey, nobodys perfect..... :-laf



Mike.

 

[Jim W]

I wonder if that is in part a result of the agreements with the vendors, for example when the starter vendor signs the contract with Chrysler to provide said starter they have a built-in failure rate and it is cost effective to simply change the unit and the vendor takes the hit. Less small parts for Chrysler to catalog, price, purchase and stock at the PDC's.



That is the case for sure while under warranty, even after warranty I wonder if the dealer parts stream may still be the best deal even if overpriced compared to the aftermarket (although I find Mopar parts to be fairly priced for the most part) who lately can't seem to offer anything automotive that is any good.

Look at what BDaughtry just went through with 3 NAPA P/S pumps that were rebuilt without the relief valve even being installed. That cost him money even if the part itself was warranteed.



When Detroit Diesel launched the Alliance rear axles (to compete with Meritor and Eaton) they carried a long warranty and any failures were an automatic return to Detroit Diesel for evaluation. Anything more than a weepy pinion or output shaft seal leak was an R&R. We were not allowed to dis-assemble them. Drove the gear techs nuts watching a forward rear have to replaced when only a pinion bearing was needed.



But, that gave Detroit Diesel complete control and teardown of every failure that occurred at their own facility with all preloads, etc. still intact.



Once I thought about it that was very good thinking and a very proactive approach to refine the new product.



Mike.

Mike;

This is not so much as the supplier but the OEM requirement.



When I worked at Caterpillar we required the entire assembly to be returned; such as a Cylinder group/Pump group or Axle assembly for failure analysis. This was especially true for warranty claims and if there was a policy letter in effect at the time.



This way we could analysis the failure completely, what may be changed out by the mechanic may not have been the root cause of the failure. There were teams of engineers and service engineers who would analyze these failures to ensure that the failure rate was under the B10 life expectancy and to find the root cause. Even if this was a supplier component we would tear the component apart to find the failure. We would than inform the supplier what the failure was and the root cause of the failure requesting a redesign. The supplier never paid warranty dollars these were paid by Caterpillar.



Now all components have a design life that is established by the service team and engineers most design life targets have a B10 target level some maybe even as high as a B15 or B20. So if a component is to have a design life of 10,000 hours or 1,000,000 miles than 10% of these components will fail before they reach the life target. This is what warranty dollars were usually paid on.



Jim W.

 

[Bill Stockard]

During my 30 years with I-H/Navistar and working at the dealer level, the policies mentioned by Mike and Jim W were similar. Eventually after the component return program ended, getting the component repair parts into the parts stream at parts depots and down to the dealer level sometimes took longer which caused problems for the dealer and sometimes cost the customer needless downtime. Being I was the guy who sold it orignially, I was the first to hear about it.



Bill

 

[mwilson]

During my 30 years with I-H/Navistar and working at the dealer level, the policies mentioned by Mike and Jim W were similar. Eventually after the component return program ended, getting the component repair parts into the parts stream at parts depots and down to the dealer level sometimes took longer which caused problems for the dealer and sometimes cost the customer needless downtime. Being I was the guy who sold it orignially, I was the first to hear about it.



Bill

I'd be lost if I couldn't blame stuff on the Sales Department... ... ...



Mike.

 

[BIGNASTY]

On a 6. 7 I would t use a programmer personally, too much money if something goes wrong but on the 2 5. 9's CR's ive had programmers made a huge difference. Cummins has to work withing certain peramiters for emissions and what not so no, I don't think that they can allways make them how they want. Vast Majority of people I know with programmers have no issues unless there being stupid, but I don't blame the programmer for that one.



As far as old school tech, I was referring more to things like cranking injector lines, I've worked with old school techs, don't get me wrong some are the best I've ever seen, but many don't understand the changes to modern engines and are so set in there ways that it makes for a bad combo. Though anyone from a place like wyo tech scares the I TRIED TO BY-PASS THE CUSSING FILTER out of me too! There's a balance of self taught/home learned abilities, common sense, mechanical inclination and the ability to understand and learn different technology's that makes a good tech, and they are getting very very hard to find.

I started at a CAT dealer sweeping floors before I was even out of high school, did the diesel program at the local JC and worked my way up from there.

That is the reason I QUIT working on these things I can hold my own with things I understand THAT ARE MECHANICAL IN NATURE but I just never got around to working with all the ELECTRONIC CRAP IMO. I know that without all the electronics that we wouldnt get the milage/power we do out of these motors BUT AT WHAT PRICE DOES THAT COME? One of the better wrenches were I worked LTTTERLY COULD NOT READ and could barely sign his name but I could pull my truck into the shop and you could see him turn his head and listen for a bit have you shut it off and fix the problem without the need of a TRUE MECHANIC TELLING HIM ANYTHING and we all know that when you get your Class A you are the all-knowing on truck repair also.

This has come to be by corporate greed not by techs choice. They want to sell assy's for profits they can pocket. I miss the old days when I could replace a diode instead of a $441 alternator or a starter contact pkg instead of a $750 starter

If at all possiable I take the part off and repair it or have it repaired, and I will replace it, ie starters,alt, turbos

The parts return to analize the failure has been common in the Dodge world for years in the early stages of that part. Now they are forcing us to return cores when new parts are used in the customer pay jobs also. Not a bad way to build up their core supply but it doesn't look like the pricing has dropped to adjust for the core return

That sounds like the Military way of thinking ya cant fix it if you dont know WHERE AND HOW ITS BREAKING.

 

[d6c]

As to Cat hydraulic cylinders..... and warranty... . customer complaint would be excessive noise with cylinder travel on 330 and 325 foresty machines. I've been in the seat (operator) for somebody else when this went on..... local cat dealer chased pin and bushings to no end... . still noisy. Main boom cylinder bores on the 330 were found to be way out of spec. , rebult to spec. and doing a lot better today. The mechanic is on the way out now to swap out main boom cylinder number 2 on my personal 325... . point is none of this stuff is being swapped out for new on brand new machines. Local dealer is rebuilding cylinders and bringing them in ( or rebuilding the originals) for re-install. Nothing is going to Mother Cat. The point that came up about customer expense repairs with new parts requiring a core to be returned is interesting... . you are paying for a new part... not a reman... . never has been a core charge on new part. I think somebody is walking off with customer owned stuff... wouldn't work with me. At this point all the repairs on these log loaders has been on warranty... . as the owners we just have to eat the downtime and lost production.

 

[BIGNASTY]

At this point all the repairs on these log loaders has been on warranty... . as the owners we just have to eat the downtime and lost production.

Buddy of mine has the same kind of problem with his Mack trucks. The MP7 motors with the Diesel, burn re-gen exhaust system is a real pile of crap. Sure it's on warranty but the DOWN TIME IS KILLING HIM. They take it in and its not just a day its a week or two!!!

 

[JR]

JR I understand how it is with the wife's car-finding time etc. But I value my wife enough to make time to see she has a safe car to drive... ... ... ... .
no offense meant-just bustin your balls a bit

Yeah, I was just as upset at myself for not noticing the torn boot one of the times I was under it. When I see something like that it always gets replaced immediately. My wife was more upset with them because they were supposed to handle the repairs. As she put it, in the 13+ years of me maintaining her vehicles not one time has she ever been on the side of the road but the first time I let her take it in for service a major failure occurs... It also happened at a really bad time as I was working 16 hour days 7 days a week for 4 weeks straight. I Know I know, excuses
Some thingscan't be fore seen as in the case of the ball join seperating I had driven the car a few days before and felt fine, no noises, no play etc. The wife is also real diligent about reporting any new noises or different feeling or handling characteristics she's a lot more in tune with her vehicles than most women I know. So when they had the car on the rack there's no doubt in my mind it FELT tight, but you do not fix squeaky steering components with spray! To me that was their biggest offense especially when they were told to fix whatever was needed
That is what they get paid for.

 

[d6c]

Buddy of mine has the same kind of problem with his Mack trucks. The MP7 motors with the Diesel, burn re-gen exhaust system is a real pile of crap. Sure it's on warranty but the DOWN TIME IS KILLING HIM. They take it in and its not just a day its a week or two!!!

The outfit I work seasonal for has their own log trucks..... two of the fleet with cat/dpf setups..... first one is already traded in... . we are talking about new trucks here!! second one is only waiting for the new one to be built... . going cummins with scr this time... yeh I know they will still have a dpf... . but the first one has done great so far. Keep in mind we are talking about having a rig at 88 thousand literally conk out on you... . whether you can get it out of the road or not. Luckily for the company they have a couple of older extra trucks on hand to fill in.

 

[BIGNASTY]

The outfit I work seasonal for has their own log trucks..... two of the fleet with cat/dpf setups..... first one is already traded in... . we are talking about new trucks here!! second one is only waiting for the new one to be built... . going cummins with scr this time... yeh I know they will still have a dpf... . but the first one has done great so far. Keep in mind we are talking about having a rig at 88 thousand literally conk out on you... . whether you can get it out of the road or not. Luckily for the company they have a couple of older extra trucks on hand to fill in.

Thats a shame when I had my own truck I could never afford a NEW ONE I went with a 72 Pete that had some unknown amount of miles on it but had a fresh in-frame major, Rebuilt 13 speed trans, and 2 rebuilt drop-in's and that lasted me 600k and the only reason for a different trans was because of my Right foot, the 1693 cat was REALLY HARD on them. Then fuel got expensive and the cat was a HEAVY MOTOR and I needed a long wheel base to haul re-bar up to WA and Glue lams back. The new trucks are THORW AWAYS pay that kind of money and throw them away I just dont understand.