Off Roading Winter 4 wheelin'

[Ol'TrailDog]

Bob opined:

We should probably forgive his ignorance!

After all, he is from a state where there is virtually NO public land and what there is , is not usable by the general public, as it is surrounded by private land. !

Thank you for your kindness. I shouldn't have called Alaska a mudhole, it is a beautiful state. However, to correct your, ahh. . ignorance, Wyoming, is 49% public lands. Which puts it sixth behind Nevada, Alaska, Utah, Idaho , and Oregon. Wyoming's public lands are very accessible.



Regarding the coal mine comment. Don't they have open-pit mines in Alaska? Perhaps we are looking at apples and oranges here. Mineral extraction to meet the country's energy demands versus tearing up public lands for the challenge of access when there are more appropriate times and means or legitimate access needs (hunting, mining, and etc. ) Perhaps you should consider boats, tracked vehicles, or airplanes for summer access to appropriate places and snomobiles for winter access.

 

[BRobertson]

I know very well how bad the access problems are in Wyoming.

I have flown over every square inch at low altitudes while performing wildlife, forestry, and environmental surveys for various gov. agencies, as a pilot for Western Air Research. There are very large tracts of land ( so called public land) that can only be accessed by paying trespass fees or by the good graces of the land owners.

Please don't misunderstand me!! There are a few scenic areas,

mostly the western part, and the parks are nice, but unusable for the average person, (the employees are the main users).

Yes we have a major open pit coal mine, Usibelli , just north of Denali Park. It has received several awards for being environmentally responsible. They reclaim the land and it becomes great Dall sheep habitat.

Bob

 

[BRobertson]

Rob,

I don't mean to be onery here!!!

I'm just reacting to the age old problem we have in Alaska of uninformed(although well meaning) folks from down south passing judgement on how we do things up here!!!

I believe that most of us Alaskans live here because we love it!!

The exceptions are the ones that came here for the financial advantages, or those that were sent here, the military, the gov employees, etc

Even some of these folks end up staying because they fall in love with the place!!

We take very good care of the land, thank you!!!

We don't want it to turn into another state that is covered with roads. I love flying for hours and not seeing a road or town!!!

However,, some areas have informal trails that are used by hunters, miners, backpackers, etc. People tend to stick to the trails, no matter how bad the going is.

Bottom line is that we don't need to be extreme in any direction.

Bob

 

[Ol'TrailDog]

Okay, you convinced me.



Folks, please do not come to Wyoming. I have been advised the opportunities to recreate on public land are extremely limited.



Alaska offers abundant opportunities for recreational exploitation. Be happy visit Alaska.



Nuff said.

 

[CNichols]

Verry cool rigs. I hope to have something that is half as cool as that one day.

 

[Speedo]

Thanks Bob..

Thanks for stepping in Bob but I think that its a wasted effort. Some people cannot be dissuaded when they know they're right.



Gus

 

[Forrest Nearing]

who cares about "public land" if it's never going to be visited by the public?



no offense to the nuts who were out there, but that looks like my hell on earth... cold/wet/muddy



have at it, rut it to death!!! but tread lightly in the Rockies please!



Forrest

 

[Ol'TrailDog]

Forrest quipped:

who cares about "public land" if it's never going to be visited by the public

Fortunately, or unfortunately depending on whose perspective, it is my job to "care" about your public land. Albeit a small corner.



Consequently, I have had plenty of opportunity to confront bubbas who think it is their god-given right to do what ever on public land.



Unfortunately, many do not even give a second thought as to the appropriateness or destructiveness of their recreational activities. Moreover, they will defend the indefensible to the bitter end. Land, or sea for that matter, may have invaluable purposes beyond meeting human utilitarian needs, especially for leisure recreation activities.



Sorry, when I see this happening and being condoned I can't give it a pass. Perhaps a bit melodramatic, but the saying goes something like "all it takes for evil to prosper is for people to do nothing"

 

[CNichols]

I dont understand how they have hurt the land by driving over it?



The most damage that I saw was the clay pit. And Im sure once it rains that it will all flow back into the ruts and it will look as they were never there. I am also sure that the water on the creek will refreeze. Other than a tree being cut that was already dead and on the ground what was damaged?

 

[Ol'TrailDog]

Put your ear to the muck, listen very carefully, and you will hear the screams of mangled earthworms.



PS: it may help to clear the muck from your ears every so often.

 

[CNichols]

No need to be an a$$, I thought it was a valid question. You were the one to start that argument in the first place so you have no room to be bitter. I also think you have no leg to stand on when it comes to this story. If they decided to change their oil and just let it drain on the ground or chopping down trees just for the hell of it then I think you have a point. But they left a few ruts and broke some ice on a creek. Have a nice day

 

[Ol'TrailDog]

a$$ = aok, gee thanks pard.



C obviously you were offended by my attempt at humorous response to something I thought was readily apparent. Therefore I'll take another run at it. These gentlemen decided to cause long term damage to public lands for the sake of a challenge. By choosing to drive through the land instead of "over" the land several damages resulted including:



1) Vegetation. According to the narrative it had been approximately ten years since the cabin had been accessed by this manner (this speaks volumes in itself). As you can see from the photo the vegetation which existed is gone based on a comparison of adjacent sites.



2) Loss of vegetation will mean increased erosion. Especially on the hillsides the ruts may become gullies. The narrative mentions rutted swamps and the trail with gravel washouts, most likely exacerbated by "recreational" activities. The stream bank has been compromised at the crossings. Another source of erosion.



3) Water quality has been negatively impacted by the bank erosion above. In addition, driving the vehicles across the creek will further compromise water quality and stream bed integrity. The damage to stream bank, new source of runoff sediments from the mucked up road, and the stirred up stream bed can increase steam sediments and turbidity.



4) The erosion and increased turbidity can have negative impacts on aquatic plants and animals. In addition to the vegetation, there were most likely direct impacts to fauna on the trail.



5) Hazardous toxic materials from the vehicle fire and potential fuel spill could negatively impact localized areas.



5) Aesthetically we have a ten mile scar. Maybe it is in the eye of the beholder, but the trail looks rather ugly to me and I'd be willing to bet it looks ugly to most folks. The breakdowns most likely left equipment littering the landscape.



6) The cost/benefit is awry. This was a recreation trip for the challenge. As far as can be ascertained from the narrative there not even a utilitarian aspect to this trip, e. g. legitimate hunting, wood cutting, or mining.



7) This took place on public land instead of private land. Even if access is legal doesn't mean it is necessarily right if done in such a manner that results in resource damage. As an aside the last issue of Yellowstone Science has a brief article about some folks from B. C. who did a little offroading in Yellowstone. The perps were busted. The Yellowstone pictures are child's play comparatively speaking. In addition to going to jail the gents are liable for resource damage and restoration costs.



8) There were a number of alternatives available, and know about by the perpetrators. For example, when the ground is frozen or snow covered, tracked vehicles, snowmobile, aircraft, foot, possibly pack or sled animal. Or perhaps not go at all.



Finally, since my attempt at humor ruffled your feathers and made you generally unhappy, I'll give you a to brighten your day.

 

[CNichols]

Sorry Humor is hard to pick up on the board.



I see your point thanks for the explanation

 

[MMiller]

Hey old trail dog, not trying to get the argument going again but I question one thing. If I understand correctly this whole trip would have been OK if they would have shot a moose, caught a fish in the river, cut down a tree or found some oil for the better of mankind??



Quote:e. g. legitimate hunting, wood cutting, or mining.



Its ok to destroy the earth for gain of its natural resources but not just to "enjoy".



I just wanted a little clearification. I my self enjoy fourwheeling, I like the challenge and the "secenry" I take all my "junk" in with me and ususally end up bringing more out with me. I hate to see people "abuse" land and litter, but as always my opinion on use and abuse are differnt from others. Oh yeah, my diesel trucks puff a little smoke on acceleration too!



Opinions are like armpits, everybody has them and some stink!

Opinions are also like legs, they are ment to be spred!!



Gus the trip looked like fun, but I don't think I would be able to handle the cold! I have never been that far out civilization, that part appeals to me, but the cold temps would scare me away in a heartbeat!!

 

[Boomer II]

Just think, in a couple thousand years you'll never know any of us were here.

 

[Archive]

I drive a toxin spewin diesel as a daily driver (when back in the states), so I'm guilty too.

But history would suggest that human population growth and continued destruction to habitat will not be recovered in thousands of years, we will have paved the planet by that time.

Just about everything associated with modern society has an impact on our natural invironment, usually negative (deforestation, water contamination, loss of habitat, bla, bla, bla. ).

More folks need to spend a hundred $ on a pair of boots instead of hundreds on a vehicle to get them into the wilderness.

my . 02



JJ

 

[Boomer II]

Originally posted by jandtjil

I drive a toxin spewin diesel as a daily driver (when back in the states), so I'm guilty too.

But history would suggest that human population growth and continued destruction to habitat will not be recovered in thousands of years, we will have paved the planet by that time.

Just about everything associated with modern society has an impact on our natural invironment, usually negative (deforestation, water contamination, loss of habitat, bla, bla, bla. ).

More folks need to spend a hundred $ on a pair of boots instead of hundreds on a vehicle to get them into the wilderness.

my . 02



JJ

That'll work if you're able, some folks aren't

 

[Archive]

I have zero problem with rigs that stay with established trails.



JJ

 

[Boomer II]

Same here, that's how we do it in Moab.

 

[Speedo]

On the trail

There are people who are against hunting, that won't slow me down. Some people are against eating meat, throw another steak on the grill. Everyone has their own set of values and some think that they have to try to make their values apply to others. I just enjoy doing what I do and ignore the rantings of people that I don't agree with. I'm not on a mission to change the way that wrong thinking people think.



Gus