Working drivability issues on 2011 2500 w/manual trans

[schmalda]

This thread is a follow up to my previous thread on drivability issues with a 2011 2500 Ram Diesel with manual transmission..... summary:



After driving my new Ram for a few months I noticed two undesirable behaviors:

1) Persistent fueling; after quickly removing throttle (ie shifting) the engine continues to fuel for 1 to 2 seconds.

2) Poor power; if you enter 2nd or 3rd gear at rpms higher than ~1800rpms with WOT the engine will only deliver 75% fuel, while the previous gear and the gear would provide 100% fuel at WOT.



I took my issues to the Dodge dealer they understood and recognized the issues but could not do anything to correct as all parameters w/within tolerance; they contacted STAR who provided no assistance. So I read a couple of books on Diesel Performance including ‘High Performance Diesel Builders Guide’ by Joe Pettitt and read the TDR’s Turbo Diesel Buyer’s Guide.



That brings me to today; taking things into my own hands I decided to systematically upgrade the truck to correct my two core issues and pick up some power along the way. As I go thru this process I thought it would be good to share my issues and successes with the TDR community. Here I go….



I purchased AutoEnginuity Data Logger with Chrysler Expansion ($431) to independently baseline and measure my vehicle performance. It has a fully functional CAN Bus interface so you can access EVERYTHING on the Bus, plus a full featured data logger and Dyno. Sounded great; it wasn’t. The software installed and loaded OK but data logging rate was too low. The best sample rate recorded was 1 sample every 3 seconds; for comparison data rates I saw thru a low tech OBD2 Datalogger were every 0. 3 sec. I worked thru layers of Tech Support at AutoEnginuity with my problem until I ended up talking to the software and hardware developer; he was able to answer my questions. According to AutoEnginuity in 2011 Chrysler changed the CAN Bus formatting for the Cummins ECM. Chrysler went to a larger data Packet size, 90 bits which reduced the update rate. So instead of receiving data from the ECM at 'normal' CAN Bus rates of 0. 1 sec data is sent at much slower rates. So any CAN Bus data logging software that used the old CAN Bus Protocol to data log would produce poor unuseable data. AutoEnginuity understands these problems and they are working to design new hardware and software to support data logging function for the new CAN Bus format. As a side note AutoEnginuity stated that this new format has also been implemented on all new Fiat based vehicles including the Dart…. . The good news in all of this for me was AutoEnginuity stood behind their reputation and accepted my return of the product; unfortunately I still had to pay restocking but that was better than nothing.



Next I purchased ScanXL by Palmer ($170). This software uses the OBD2 protocol it does not use the CAN Bus protocol, consequently it does not currently offer an expansion for Chrysler. This software installed and loaded OK; data rates producing a sample every 0. 12 sec while monitoring 5 outputs... . very good. I baselined my vehicle performance with ECM flash: 18-012-12, 3/19/2012, using the data logging function (verified 2 above noted behaviors still present) and built-in dyno function. Tomorrow I’ll go to the Dealer to get the latest flash uploaded: 18-012-12, 11/21/2012 then baseline again. Next installment I’ll report any performance or behavior deltas between the two flashes.



David

 

[RVTRKN]

I haven't been able to get rid of the Surging during regen, and the latest flash back in November hasn't helped. I'm so frustrated since it was updated back in 09, until then I had a flawless truck. It even took my clutch when towing, pulling a grade. I did get a Kiwi Wifi and downloaded the Dash Command by Palmer electronics that I use on my iPhone and then see it via video jack to the Nav screen. Its a step down from ScanXL but it allows me to see some engine parameters. Good luck with your experiment.

 

[GCroyle]

Guys,



I'm of no help, just a humourous observation.



schmalda, seems like you are quite comfortable with the bits and bytes and most likely lots more. Now play this powerquest question back in say, 2000 or so, it was a nuts and bolts approach, finding different parts, pressure, timing, air flow, temps and now its messin with data, times have really changed.



Have fun.

 

[EMAC2]

The continued fueling after throttle release is torque management. The only way to get rid of it is with an aftermarket tuner (AMT). This has been an on-going issue for us as well. Dealer can not do anything about it. I have no idea why it does this, seems like it could be a safety issue.

The only possible idea I can come up with is maybe since it's torque management, it is done to protect the driveline and not allow rapid changes in the velocity of the rotating parts of the drive line. In other words, it allows a "ramp down" of power to prevent damage to the Dual Mass Flywheel assembly (DMF) and other parts in the driveline since there is no torque converter to "absorb" the huge variances in velocity change... .

 

[EMAC2]

On your second point, I have observed the same. Again, The only way to get rid of it is with an aftermarket tuner (AMT).

Since we are keeping our vehicles stock, we are just having to live with it... ...

 

[EMAC2]

here are some posts on torque management:

http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/4...988-when-delete-manual-trans.html#post5787721

http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/4th-gen-performance-parts-discussion/555821-torque-management.html

http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/4th-gen-performance-parts-discussion/548799-torque-manager.html

http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/4th-gen-performance-parts-discussion/549213-torque-management.html

 

[EMAC2]

Hope this helps to answer your questions... ...

 

[EMAC2]

BTW, the scan tools that work best are described here:

http://reviews.ebay.com/Chrysler-Starscan-StarMobile-wiTECH-amp-DRB-III?ugid=10000000014811396

http://reviews.ebay.com/Scan-Tool-D...-for-OBD-2-amp-CAN-BUS?ugid=10000000017626434

http://reviews.ebay.com/Snap-On-Verus-My-Diagnostic-Tool-Of-Choice?ugid=10000000014529591

 

[EMAC2]

Don't buy a WiTech on eBay; it must still be registered with WiTech and you will pay A LOT to register. It's actually cheaper to buy through WiTech and license annually than to buy on eBay and then have to pay the re-registration fee with WiTech. StarScan and DRBIII are for older vehicles and again, not worth the money. WiTech is the only show in town that works the best with these year vehicles.....

 

[Wygate]

The continued fueling after throttle release is torque management. The only way to get rid of it is with an aftermarket tuner (AMT). This has been an on-going issue for us as well. Dealer can not do anything about it. I have no idea why it does this, seems like it could be a safety issue.

The only possible idea I can come up with is maybe since it's torque management, it is done to protect the driveline and not allow rapid changes in the velocity of the rotating parts of the drive line. In other words, it allows a "ramp down" of power to prevent damage to the Dual Mass Flywheel assembly (DMF) and other parts in the driveline since there is no torque converter to "absorb" the huge variances in velocity change... .

Guys I can say 3rd gens were de-rated due to clutch holding issues 600 vs 650 trq manual vs auto. I got this right from the horses mouth (buddy was on the 6sp engineering team)
I would have to assume that is getting carried forward w/ the ever increasing #s thus allowing the parts to catch up

 

[schmalda]

EMAC2,
Thanks for your links, I found the Chrysler ScanStar most interesting. I'm not in the market again for a datalogger; the ScanXL is working well.
Regarding your comments on my two issues..... maybe check out my link in first post to this thread; pg 7 has some pretty good info from H&S on the root causes. In short #1 function is reduce surging and the #2 is Torque Mgmt.
Thanks,
David

 

[schmalda]

Update



I had my Dealer apply the 18-012-12, 11/21/2012 flash; I then baselined again. No measureable change in any of the parameters I'm tracking. It may have a tendency to surge a little bit more; normally the truck surges once a week and now ~it's twice a week.



I then installed Banks Air filter system. Compaired to stock horsepower is up 2% and torque is up 3%. Intake air temperature did not change, intake boost pressure was up 0. 4 psi. It's also worth noting that the turbo noise increased slightly due to removing the intake muffler. I haven't run enough fuel thru it yet to measure any fuel mileage change. My two issues with motor performance have not improved.



Next I'll install the H&S Mini Max and Exhaust.....



David

 

[EMAC2]

Thanks for the update!

 

[RVTRKN]

Update

I had my Dealer apply the 18-012-12, 11/21/2012 flash; I then baselined again. No measureable change in any of the parameters I'm tracking. It may have a tendency to surge a little bit more; normally the truck surges once a week and now ~it's twice a week.

I then installed Banks Air filter system. Compaired to stock horsepower is up 2% and torque is up 3%. Intake air temperature did not change, intake boost pressure was up 0. 4 psi. I haven't run enough fuel thru it yet to measure any fuel mileage change. My two issues with motor performance have not improved.

Next I'll install the H&S Mini Max and Exhaust.....

David

Let me know how the H&S goes, I'll be interested in that as well if it works, but I can't delete if that's required.

 

[Bob4x4]

I have not seen a tuner play well yet that keeps the aftertreatment working

 

[schmalda]

OK it’s been a while since I updated but it’s been a very busy year but I managed to make some progress on the truck upgrades. This is a bit long but I wanted to share my experiences with the community in case it helps someone else…I’ve learned a lot…

Rewinding a bit after I baselined (Datalog and Dyno) the truck with ScanTool I installed a Banks air filter system. When compared to stock horsepower was up 2% and torque is up 3%. Intake air temperature did not change, intake boost pressure was up 0. 4 psi. It's also worth noting that the turbo noise increased slightly due to removing the intake muffler. I noticed a possible opportunity to get some ram air effect and removed a body plug under the hood (pictured below). With the plug removed I recorded a repeatable increase of 1.4 to 0.5 psi pressure between 60 and 75 mph respectively. So for my testing I’ve left the plug out moving forward.

Moving forward with my upgrades I installed the Mini Max (MM) Tuner with full factory emissions in place. On the MM I set the Timing to #3 and did not use Torque Management. I drove approximately 1000 miles in this configuration and realized significantly improved performance in ‘Stock’ (which has just a little more power than a true stock vehicle because the timing is still advanced), ‘Tow’ and ‘Street’ mode, I did not use ‘Performance’ mode. Persistent throttle behavior was completely gone in fact at higher power settings and you are deep in the throttle you need to back off smoothly to prevent driveline jerk. Behavior of the second gear engaged not providing full fueling under hard acceleration is still present in all power levels. If quick acceleration is desired the first gear you apply full throttle must be short shifted (no more than 2200 rpm) to realize full fueling in next gear. This rule must be followed when full throttle is initially applied in 1st, 2nd or 3rd. The truck was still pretty quite there was a little more engine rattle as I was running #3 on the H&S Tuner. Exhaust continued to be clean with no regeneration issues. One observation I made was a repeatable ‘stumble’ during hard acceleration in ‘Street’ mode, it was as if the MM got stupid for a second at lower rpm with max throttle in any gears….more on this later.

I did some dyno runs and realized an average increase in horsepower and torque of 14% in ‘Stock’ mode and 30% in ‘Street’ mode. I think if you wanted to improve throttle response and were happy with a small power boost when running in Stock mode the combination of the air filter upgrade and MM in ‘Stock’ mode is a nice upgrade. Unfortunately for my wallet I couldn’t resist hitting the power up button…

So not satisfied with the exhaust tone I pulled off the stock muffler on the stock exhaust system. I could not even detect a change in exhaust volume or tone!...Time to eject the stock exhaust. I installed a turbo back 5” stainless Flo-Pro exhaust with muffler. Exhaust note was deeper and definitely louder. I use the truck over the summer to pull a 5th 8k Wheel camper (sometimes from coast to coast) so I can’t have it too loud, this system for me provided a perfect volume and tone…I love hearing the truck in warm-up mode w/the engine brake on…sounds like a jet airplane getting ready for takeoff.

Spring came and I went on a camping trip with the family to Southern NY pulling thru the mountains of northern PA and Southern NY. I ran the truck in ‘Tow’ mode on the H&S and pulled some pretty hard climbs at one point along the way I had to down shift to 5th and got into the throttle heavy and the driveline made an odd noise so I backed off. Driving around unhooked while at our camping destination in ‘Street’ mode went OK until I decided to try out the ‘Performance’ mode on the H&S. As soon as I leaned into the throttle I got an odd vibration in the drivetrain, engine rpm went up but the truck wasn’t accelerating as fast as the rpms were climbing…at this point I realized I smoked my clutch.

So I did some research on the clutch and decided to go with a Valier dual disk organic clutch, I performed installation; some installation notes: I had to take out trany and transfer case as a unit as top right trany to transfer case bolt was inaccessible (I tried for an hr to remove with all kinds of wrench variations). I reinstalled trany to engine without using bolts to pull in….pushed together by hand to prevent damage. I adjusted the Clutch Master Cylinder actuation rod shorter so that Ignition lockout switch prevented engine cranking then turned out until the interlock switch was made then out one more full turn. This maximizes clutch preload but minimizes clutch disengagement. This upgrade required me to pull off the Dual Mass Flywheel…I read all of the notices about increased transmission noise but was still surprised how noisy it is. I’m hear to tell you it is VERY loud when sitting in neutral with the clutch engaged and provides for a lot of engine vibration at rpms below 1500. It is worst in 5th gear and if you give it full throttle at low rpms in this gear it will cause your dashboard to light up like a Christmas tree with faults (4 Wheel Drive, Anti-Lock brakes, Parking Brake and Service Engine) due to the vibration….the faults clear after about 5 minutes but I avoid doing this and it hasn’t occurred but a few times since. During this upgrade I also installed the H&S EGT pyro and set defuel to 1300 F. It is worth mentioning that after the Clutch upgrade the hard acceleration ‘stumble’ behavior was completely gone. I’m pretty sure this ‘stumble’ was the result of the clutch slipping and the MM and ECM trying to figure out what was happening.

I read up on the noise issue because it is disturbingly loud…it sounds like someone thru a bunch of rocks inside your transmission. I tried changing transmission fluids: Drained out ATF4 (I did not inspect the drained fluid) and noted a small amount of ferrous debris on magnetic drain plug. I tried Penzoil Sycromesh which was recommended by a number of sources including the Clutch Mfg, I filled to bottom of fill plug (6.5 qt). I noticed synco’s were a bit more lazy, no noticeable reduction in transmission noise when in neutral with clutch engaged. I put 1k miles on this and drained the oil, it looked brand new under shop light but under close inspection under bright sunlight I noticed syncro material suspended in oil. I noted a small amount of ferrous debris on magnetic drain plug. I tried Mobil Synthetic Devcon 50; synco’s still lazy, no noticeable reduction in transmission noise when in neutral with clutch engaged. I drained oil after 500 miles appeared clean and like new when inspected under shop lights. Upon close inspection under bright sunlight I noticed syncro material suspended in oil. I noted a very small amount of ferrous debris on the magnetic drain plug. I then switched back to Mopar ATF4, after running 500 miles and again at 1000 miles to get all of the Gear Oil out of the transmission. Both changes the oil looked like new under shop lights. Upon closer inspection under bright sunlight I noted syncro material (less than when compared to Gear Oil w/comparable miles) syncro material suspended in oil. I noted a very small amount of ferrous debris on the magnetic drain plug. Synco’s continue to be lazy; suspect damage due to running Gear oil.

A couple Transmission observations: I noticed during long tow days the transmission temperature was significantly hotter than the engine oil temperature. I also noticed an interesting Transmission behavior that may have been there before but I never noticed. When parking if I back down hill in to a parking spot in reverse or 1st and I leave the transmission in that gear and then the truck is shut off using the engine to hold the truck parked without setting the parking brake I can not get the transmission out of reverse unless I start the engine.
Has anybody had this happen to them w/the G56R?

After the new clutch was broken in I bumped up the MM power setting to ‘Performance’…Oh my goodness….I was hooked up! I am very happy with the power and I’ve been getting into it a little too much, I only got 20k miles out of my BF Goodrich T/A’s…I got to stop that. My Scan Tool Dyno Tool function does not provide an accurate horsepower or torque number so my horsepower and torque estimates are based on the assumption that my truck stock had 350 hp and 610 lb ft torque; given this I estimate my power to be at 525 hp and torque at 925 lb ft in ‘Performance mode’. I’m planning on putting the truck on a dyno this year to get an actual number. My pulling mileage in ‘Tow’ mode is 12 mpg when running 70 - 75mph. Unhooked and light in ‘Performance mode’ I get 24 mpg when running 75 mph.

Over this past Christmas break I put on a Magtech finned rear differential cover with an oil drain plug . I filled below the Magtech recommended level which was significantly higher than the stock level; I’m currently about half an inch higher that the stock fill level which is about 3/4 of an inch lower than the min line on the Magtech dipstick. I also built a transmission cooler. The trans cooler uses a 12V pump run off a 190 -180F thermostat switch in the trans. It pumps fluid from the lower right side of the PTO cover thru stainless steel braided hoses to a 21’ x 7’ cooler fitted in front of the radiator stack in front of the truck then thru a spin on engine oil filter and back to the upper left side PTO cover. I also installed a H&S thermocouple (709402 ) in the transmission to monitor its temperature. No leaks yet, I’ve run the pump manually a few times, so far it hasn't been warm enough/I haven’t driven long enough to see temps elevate and switch on auto.

I’ve posted up photos of some of this stuff to Google Photo’s if your interested….
https://plus.google.com/photos/117446477756869530354/albums/5971217217154391937?partnerid=gplp0

Thanks,
David

 

[NIsaacs]

Good write up with facts to back it up. I think the twin disk clutch is the biggest contributor to the noise and lazy syncros. The noise you are stuck with, but the syncros will work if you let them. Shift slower with gentle pressure on the stick at the gate of your up shift, when it is ready the gear will fall in. They can't stop the extra weight of the twin disks for a quick shift. I am sure you know all this, just a reminder that it is all normal, lol.

Nick

 

[RVTRKN]

Schmalda, can you provide part numbers and a little more detail to your trans cooling system? Just towing my boat, I've seen as high as 230* oil temps and I have been looking into doing just what you did. As far as the type of oil used, I'm using the blend CKelley1 concocted, so far I'm happy with it. I just ran three trips through Baker Grade at 40* average ambient temperatures and my temperatures, are at 180* climbing at 10K GVW. The reason I'm using the plural form of temperature, is I see the temperature on both sides of the transmission and there is a 3*to 5* difference under the strain of climbing the Grade. The hotter side is the drivers side opposite of the exhaust, so thats not a contributing factor.

 

[schmalda]

RVTRKN,
I've posted the BOM to the above Google photo link.
The pump is a little loud if you run by itself but when the engine is running it is completly lost in idle noise. If I have a need to take this system apart again I may add a couple of hydraulic ball valves to the intake side and make the self-priming pump fill my trans for me . More to come on how effective it is when I actually put a load on the truck or it starts to get above 0 degrees for a while...
Interesting observation on temp delta across trans; I see temps jump around quite a bit too as the fluid is 'pumped' by the gear action in the trans.
Thanks,
David

 

[RVTRKN]

Thanks, and yes, I did see that after I asked the question. I installed two sensors because the transcool heat exchanging aluminum fins might reverse and absorb heat from the exhaust down pipe. The clearance is close and I had to cut some of the fins off to fit it in, then I heat wrapped the down pipe, I was surprised to see the difference, I even checked to see if I hadn't switched the sensors by accident.

I also have the sound of marbles in my trans after the SMF and the dual disk clutch installation (SBC DD3250). I want to convert the G56 to an NV5600, and thats what I'm planning on if the G56 fails. The pump system could then be installed into the NV5600.