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2nd Gen Non-Engine/Transmission Would you or wouldn't you?

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Chevy and Dodge both used the NV4500 and, for a long time, the Dana 70 rear (chevy dually) and real Dana 60 kingpin front axle. The GM 10. 5 Corporate 14 bolt (both dually and srw) is superior to a Dana 70 and all the axle I would ever need. The dana 80 is sweet overkill, but is actually a hybrid using D70 parts in our trucks. I would put a 14 bolt up against it anyday for my srw uses.

That said, neither Dodge nor Chevy offers all of that "good stuff" now nor ever all at once, unfortunately. It seems for any upgrade they made two downgrades, or something like that. As for the rest of the driveline, there is simply no comparison between any auto trans chrysler ever made and the venerable TH400. I don't know about the modern OD version, the 4L80E, but it is has outstanding roots. The TH400 was the strongest most reliable auto ever offered in a light truck until GM started putting Allisons behind Duramax's. So GM still kicks dodge's butt in the automatic division. And is their equal in the rear axle. They have no front axle, and so are the huge losers there.

If we are talking tried-and-true, then no motor ever built by dodge or ford can hold a candle to the small block or big block chevy in so many categories it is pointless to enumerate them. Chevy just never had, nor do they still have, a Cummins or any semblance of a decent diesel. And their IFS remains weak junk. For frame strength and cab rust resistance (certainly not doors or fenders or box), I have to give the nod to Dodge based on my 2nd gen.

But between the big 3, they have all at one time or another offered some outstanding components, but none ever put them ALL together in a diesel pickup. But Dodge came very, very close to my idea of "near perfection" in '93, lacking only a better transmission and P pump, and a better x-cab and/or crew cab offering which followed in '94 but they then stupidly threw the baby out with the bathwater in too many other important respects, mainly the front suspension, steering, and axle.

If gas is the only alternative, then the late 80's chevy K30 with a 454 and either the SM465 4-speed/NP205 or the TH400/NP205 combos reigns as king of all-time tough, imo. Dodge had an almost identical truck, even some parts interchange such as the beloved and long gone real kingpin Dana 60, a slightly inferior rear axle, but a typically much worse transmission in either manual or auto (getrag or 727). BUT Dodge trumped all with the Cummins. Without it, they lose, though the very earliest dodge cummins were pretty anemic.
 
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When I went shopping for a diesel truck, the Dodge was my first choice due to the Cummins. I knew that the xmsn was not as strong as the Allison, but that was something that I would have to live with. I dislike having to fix the headliner, replace the lift pump (twice before buying a FASS), replace the ball joints, the cracked dash and a myriad of minor gripes, but you learn to live with them because the truck does an outstanding job in its primary role as a heavy-duty pickup.



My second choice was a toss-up between the Ford and the Chevy. But I've finally got the Dodge configured how I want it, with built xmsn, engine brake, etc and plan to drive it until I wear it out. It's a case of a 500,000 mile (or more) engine in a 100,000 mile chassis, but I'm not convinced the other brands are any better. I'll keep it as long as I can.



That said, I also know that the unexpected happens and you may need to replace the vehicle sooner than anticipated. For example, a friend of mine spent thousands of dollars and countless hours getting his PS to where he wanted it, only to have it totalled when some distracted teenager t-boned him at speed. That caused my friend to look for a new truck, and got me to thinking what I would do if the same thing had happened to me.



Frankly, I don't care for any of the current crop of trucks. Only Dodge / Ram has the Cummins. I'm not ijmpressed by the electronic gizmos offered by any of the Big 3, hell this is the first vehicle I've ever owned with air conditioning or power windows! The emissions crap on the newer trucks seems a hassle and from what I've seen the fuel economy has taken a nose-dive. One of the reasons that I bought a 2nd gen was because of the suicide doors in the quad cab (MUCH better access to equipment in the rear seat) which are not present in later years. I have learned to accept the exterior styling of the 3rd gen, but not sure that I like the 4th gen at all. Reliability of my 2nd gen (with the notable exception of the VP-44) is outstanding.



Would I buy a Ford or Chevy if the Cummins was no longer available in the Dodge? Maybe ... . or maybe I'd look for a clean 2nd-gen Dodge instead.
 
If we are talking tried-and-true, then no motor ever built by dodge or ford can hold a candle to the small block or big block chevy in so many categories it is pointless to enumerate them.



I do miss my 94 Chevy 1500 with its TBI 350. I do think that truck will almost run forever. Is it possible to convert Dodge Dana 60 fronts to the kingpin system or is it just cost prohibitive?
 
When I purchased, it was strictly a best deal affair.

I loved the ergonomics of the Ford, the power/ride comfort of the gasser Chevy I was looking at, but the price point of the Dodge combined with the diesel option, plus a good trade in amount! It was a no brain-r!

The overall price difference was considerable, almost 10k less than the ford. So despite, $ spent on front end parts, noise blankets, a few fuel transfer pumps and a inj pump this year. I am still convinced it was a smart investment. The most comfortable NO!
 
Is it possible to convert Dodge Dana 60 fronts to the kingpin system or is it just cost prohibitive?



Yes and yes.



About $6000 to $7000 to have an entire custom axle built unless you possess the skills necessary to remove and replace axle tubes and/or inner C's (knuckles) with the extreme precision a street-driven vehicle must have to handle and steer correctly and get any tire life at all. Of course you would need to buy all the parts first, and they are not cheap. A donor axle would be the cheapest and still run you $800 to $1000 just for it.



Custom Dana 60's are built all the time like that, but it is never cheap and if they are do-it-yourself undertakings you can bet they are for rockcrawlers, trail climbers, and mudboggers that don't care much about alignment issues. The relative axis' of the kingpins are critically precise in 3 dimensions and beyond the capability of most folks and shops.



You would be better off converting the entire front suspension to leaf springs and bolting a Ford kingpin dana 60 in, but that would also be an expensive and no-so-easy undertaking.



As a practical matter, you can convert the hubs, upgrade the axle shafts and end up with a much better axle than the stock pseudo D60 for a "mere" $2000 or so, but you should just resign yourself to balljoints and find the best ones you can afford and be prepared to replace them every few years.
 
Excellent thread SRath and all. I would ideally like an 01 ford 4x4 manual trans. ex cab with a cummins. manual windows and locks, vinyl floor, backseat delete, white... ... .
 
I've owned two Ram 2500's, a '95 and my current '01. You name the problem, I've had it: killer dowel pin in the '95, failed a/c in both trucks, failed fuel gauge sending units in both trucks-finally built my own, vp44 failure in the '01. I love the Cummins engine but my 2nd generation trucks have been problematic. I'd like to see a Cummins powered Toyota (a company that knows how to build quality vehicles)
 
my 4 brothers and me have a logging company here in Newfounland Canada, we have 10 dodge cummins 4x4`s from 1997 to 2008 models, "man i can tell you stories about front end parts", then you may think "well he`s using these trucks on logging roads" yes but thats what a 3/4 ton should be able to handle ,the Toyota,s used to take it.

Dodge should have admitted defeat and redesigned thier front ends after 2002!!!!

if they had taken the 1st gen front end and used the coils on it, build everything a bit heavier they would not have disappointed as many buyers.

Most of our logging equipment has cummins in it and our logging tractor trailers. its a great piece of engineering. But if you ask any off my brother the origional question they`d say "Unfortunatly dodge is the only truck with a Real diesel Engine period!

NO WE WOULD NOT BUY A DODGE WITHOUT THE CUMMINS
 
Just my 2 cents

Hello guys, I am new to this forum but just my 2 cents on this topic.



I've owned GMC, Fords, and my current 2001 4x4 Ram since new. Everything broke on the Chevys, The Fords were nearly bomb proof even with after-market rodding. They just made everything heavier duty on the older models than the new vehicles. The new engineering credo of make everything just stout enough to met specs has weakened the industry.



The Dodge has been a great truck for a highway truck, but if your going off-road, count on upgrading everything. I bought it because the style reminded me of the old Mack trucks of the late 50's and early 60's and it had a Cummins Engine! Other than that, Like most of the newer corporate entities: I've found their dealerships to be less than helpful, their service suspect, and the quality of products used on the interior and exterior subpar. I would not recommend them to a friend and since cummins now owns all the companies making diesels in the big three . . only time will tell if Dodge can keep up. Great forum by the way.
 
I've loved my old green monster but... .



In 1999 I bought it for the engine and ironically that is about the only part that still works properly today. I am sure the amsoil helped.



This is likely it's last year with a registration as I will not invest much more in parts to keep it legal.



Bummer :(
 
My mechanic put it to me pure and simple. How do you make torque? You have to have a long stroke. How do you get the longest stroke? Put em' in a row. Thats why most big rigs on the road today are all straight sixes... be it cummins, cat, detroit or whatever. The simplicity of the straight six just plain makes sense.



Also, you dont see anybody putting a power stroke or a duramax in a dodge. Plenty of people out there have put a cummins in many of things besides the aforementioned. My favorite is the 4bt/scout or jeep conversion. That right there should tell you all you need to know. I also think that if ford would offer the cummins they would be untouchable. Just my humble opinion. :cool:
 
I still believe that Dodge is the best truck made and that Cummins is the best engine made.



If Dodge didn't offer a Cummins engine any longer, I would simply keep driving my 05 Dodge for the rest of my life, no matter what repairs I'd have to make. So far there hasn't been any repairs. Can the other brands make that claim?



george
 
Hello guys, I am new to this forum but just my 2 cents on this topic.

I've owned GMC, Fords, and my current 2001 4x4 Ram since new. Everything broke on the Chevys, The Fords were nearly bomb proof even with after-market rodding. They just made everything heavier duty on the older models than the new vehicles. The new engineering credo of make everything just stout enough to met specs has weakened the industry.

The Dodge has been a great truck for a highway truck, but if your going off-road, count on upgrading everything. I bought it because the style reminded me of the old Mack trucks of the late 50's and early 60's and it had a Cummins Engine! Other than that, Like most of the newer corporate entities: I've found their dealerships to be less than helpful, their service suspect, and the quality of products used on the interior and exterior subpar. I would not recommend them to a friend and since cummins now owns all the companies making diesels in the big three . . only time will tell if Dodge can keep up. Great forum by the way.


Ohh no, another outrageous false rumor to be spread around the web for years to come. We've just about moved beyond the old and dumb "Cummings owns Ford" and now we have another one.

Could you perhaps offer us a bit of evidence of this amazing new corporate ownership secret you have shared with us? I'm sure Isuzu, GM, and Furd will be surprised to learn they are now owned by Cummins, Inc.
 
Hello guys, I am new to this forum but just my 2 cents on this topic.



I've owned GMC, Fords, and my current 2001 4x4 Ram since new. Everything broke on the Chevys, The Fords were nearly bomb proof even with after-market rodding. They just made everything heavier duty on the older models than the new vehicles. The new engineering credo of make everything just stout enough to met specs has weakened the industry.



The Dodge has been a great truck for a highway truck, but if your going off-road, count on upgrading everything. I bought it because the style reminded me of the old Mack trucks of the late 50's and early 60's and it had a Cummins Engine! Other than that, Like most of the newer corporate entities: I've found their dealerships to be less than helpful, their service suspect, and the quality of products used on the interior and exterior subpar. I would not recommend them to a friend and since cummins now owns all the companies making diesels in the big three . . only time will tell if Dodge can keep up. Great forum by the way.





I don't know what you've been smoking, but you're kind of out in left field on two things.



1, I took my 95 off road quite a bit and so far i've used my 05 off road almost as much and I never had a problem with either. I sold the 95 after 10 years of use on and off road with all it original parts. The 05 still has all it's original part also. All I can say is that you must have really beat your trucks up a lot.



2, Since when does Cummins own all three diesel engine manufactures?



You're not off to a good start on this web site when you come up with those little stories.



george
 
Reactionaries on a public forum? America is alive and well.

Grizzly: "I don't know what you've been smoking, but you're kind of out in left field on two things. "

I believe the question was would "I" and why. What has your opinion got to do with my experience and preferences?


HBarlow: "I'm sure Isuzu, GM, and Furd will be surprised to learn they are now owned by Cummins, Inc. "

I would submit that your misstatement of what I wrote will or would create rumors of unfounded certitude. You don't like what I wrote about my experience or knowledge of a vehicle ? I am O. K. with that. I am sure all of your 'advise and opinion' offered on the site has been based on your experience or understanding of facts . . . anybody not agree with you? I think that is O. K.
 
George,

Do you have any idea what he said?

All I could determine from his post above is he sidestepped both of his bogus opinions without proof or evidence to back either.

Another truck stop rumor guy I guess.
 
George,



Do you have any idea what he said?



All I could determine from his post above is he sidestepped both of his bogus opinions without proof or evidence to back either.



Another truck stop rumor guy I guess.



Harvey, I have no idea what he talking about. I do believe he's smoking funny things however.



george
 
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