i want to learn to weld...

[GiesJ]

I assumed that at the pro level everyone would use 1/8" or larger electrodes.

It is interesting to see what different welders prefer. We have some big 1/2" jet rod somewhere but I couldn't find any for a photo. One of my welding reps tells a story of how he could set the stinger up and let go of it while he was burning that big rod. When the rod went out and everyone that was watching (under the shield) flipped up, he would be standing 10 feet behind them...

Is that roller assembly you've got that PV on custom? Is that your shop that it's sitting in? Any idea how much that sucker weighs? What machines are you using to weld that thing? How in the world do you obtain proper penetration (full?) on 3-1/4" steel?

I have the weights somewhere, I'll find them and post. The rollers are old turning rolls that you can get several places. They probably have been quite customized over the years. Especially good for when you are doing semi-automatic welding like submerged arc. We use a lot of DC400 and DC600 Lincoln machines. I don't know if I have a photo. Will go look. I'm not a welder, I'm involved on the engineering and QA side of things. To get full pen on a thick weld, you have to work with your joint prep. That particular weld was a double bevel v-groove.

 

[DJW]

GHarman. seems one of the hardest welding tests is horizontal, (not to be confused with flat). Many can pass vertical and overhead but fail on horizontal. One test I took where an inch or so thick plate was gouged, the one taking the test did the gouging with a 5/8 inch carbon air arc, (one of the BEST tools ever to be put in a Weldor's hand, the next Plasma) gouged to a depth of 1/2 inch and 12 inches long, beveled going in and out, then fill level with 7018 LH. That test was probably for repairs where submerged arc welds crossed say like a T or for other junctions. It was all high pressure work, as with everything if one uses the correct technique it will work.

 

[DJW]

If one goes to a steel supplier or industrial hardware store, often they will give you a sheet with construction shapes and sizes, dimensions and weights, all hot rolled, plate, strips, flat, rounds, squares, angles bar and structural, Tees, channels structural bar and junior, beams, I WF Junior, and 3 weights of pipe. The one I have goes up to 18 inch deep channels and 24 inch deep beams. A book will of course generally list larger sized shapes. They are essential for a layoutman (all beams and channels look alike) and for assessing finished weight of product, cost etc. (the more you know, the more you want to know) For Hot Rolled and specialized plate etc. one would need more information, however it's freely given, just ask, they want you to want their products.

 

[GiesJ]

GHarman. seems one of the hardest welding tests is horizontal, (not to be confused with flat). Many can pass vertical and overhead but fail on horizontal.

I'm not Greg, but IMHO horizontal (2G) and Vertical (3G) uphill and downhill all are unique unto themselves. They are all separate qualifications (from a Code standpoint) that do not allow you to weld in any position other than the one you qualified for (other than flat). Meaning - you pass a test welding vertical, you are not qualified to weld horizontal and vice-versa. Again, from the Code standpoint at least.



DJW - I would like to hear more about the fab you did!

 

[GHarman]

I'm not Greg, but IMHO horizontal (2G) and Vertical (3G) uphill and downhill all are unique unto themselves. They are all separate qualifications (from a Code standpoint) that do not allow you to weld in any position other than the one you qualified for (other than flat). Meaning - you pass a test welding vertical, you are not qualified to weld horizontal and vice-versa. Again, from the Code standpoint at least.



DJW - I would like to hear more about the fab you did!

GiesJ, You are certainly right about positions. I had to take a horizontal(2G) and a vertical(3G) test on plate for an API-650 job. This specified Lincoln 5P+. The Vertical was DOWNHILL and all coupons were x-rayed from start to finish to insure the tacks were burned out and there was a homogeneous weld. That was the Weld Procedure Specification requirements for THAT job. I had to Certify the procedure and was certified upon successful completion of proving the process.

In actual application, we also used 3/32 5P+ as a burn out and repair short cut. Instead of grinding out a bad spot, after the pass was wire brushed, a short bead with the smaller rod without changing the amperage would burn out a bad spot and you were on your way. High speed construction fabrication. BTW, Those welds were 100% X-ray, High Speed/HIGH PRESSURE

DJW, We all would like to hear more about your experiences.

GregH

 

[DJW]

I was very fortunate as leaving school at 14 years of age Wartime UK, by the time I reached 15 years of age tried 4 jobs, then I started work at an engineering firm, mainly repairing old boilers, water tubed, flue tubed, uprights, loco type, marine, Cornish and Lancasters, large single cylinder gas ignition compression (look no spark plugs, heat the head with a gasoline blow torch to start) engine. Being it was considered an essential occupation I was locked in and unable to swap jobs. (Forced labor? well we were paid) I was running a oxy. acy. profile burner, making all the patterns, figuring inside outside cuts allowance for material thickness thus pattern width, (all the good stuff). At the forge, blacksmith's striker, hammer driver, large bore pipe threading on a lathe. (and many other tasks too numerous to mention) well actually many tasks, cutting out old boiler tubes, re-chasing stay tube threads, punching and rolling tubes, grinding welds. Welding, rigging, best part climbing even getting paid for it. For 3 years shop and field work, so I knew what the both sides of the industry needed. (sorely needed in all industries) Saw much of Britain during the War, drinking in Pubs at 15 years of age, definitely illegal. At 18 years of age entered the Armed Forces, the P. B. I. Poor Bloody Infantry, my choice of course. Afterwards I worked underground in two coal mines, went to sea for a few years, and ship repairs, finally gave the whole country up, later was invited to come to the USA, which I soon found out was God's Country for a working man. I have been laid off, plant closed down etc. but can honestly say there was not a day where I couldn't be gainfully (paid) employed. well that's all for now more later.

 

[GiesJ]

The Vertical was DOWNHILL

As you know, progression in vertical welding is an essential variable. From a qualification standpoint, whatever you do, up or downhill, only gets you quals for that progression. I've been told that vertical down puts less heat into the joint. Greg - thoughts?



Earlier on in this thread, I think?, I mentioned a machine that we have that is a short-circuiting hybrid MIG machine. It uses technology that senses the surface tension of the puddle to pull the next bit of weld metal. Fascinating stuff! Lincoln and Miller both have their versions and I was fortunate to work with reps from both companies on this new technology as it pertained to our shop. With STT (Lincoln) and RMD (Miller) the open butt, single bevel with a landing joint gets welded first pass vertical downhill. Every pass after that is pulse spray MIG. With a good welder a 8" Sch 40 pipe with this process is a matter of about 8-12 minutes once fit-up is complete. Here are some links to the process:

Browser Level Verification

MILLER'S NEW, SOFTWARE-DRIVEN RMD™ PROCESS OVERCOMES SHORT CIRCUIT MIG LIMITATIONS

I had to Certify the procedure and was certified upon successful completion of proving the process.

Some more abbreviations for everyone... You completed three different things with that one procedure qualification. A weld procedure, WPS, is a range of variables that are allowed based upon a Procedure Qualification Record, PQR. The PQR is what exactly was done. Rod type, size, material, joint, electrical, travel speed, etc. The WPS is created based upon the PQR. Because the PQR you completed passed, you as the welder were also qualified to that process within those variables - this is called the WPQ, welder performance qualification. Both the WPS and the WPQ have essential variables that you cannot go beyond or change without a new qualification.



For the Procedure, there are many variables that come to play depending on what process and materials are involved. For the Welder, the variables have to do with materials involved, process of course, filler type and thickness. There are others but that is the basic gist.



For Ryan - I found a couple interesting books here and the prices are pretty reasonable:

https://ssl.lincolnelectric.com/lincoln/apdirect/store.asp?PID=16&cat=8

 

[GHarman]

GiesJ, U-DA-MAN, Yes, all that stuff you said:-laf. API-1104 and API-650 are are specified vertical downhill progression. There is more amperage applied to the electrode but the travel speed is faster, therefore less joules/inch heat input to the base metal, smaller Heat Affected Zone and less distortion.



As you already know, every Weld Procedure Specification must be certified(proved) as well as the weldor. However!!! That does not make the process viable in the real world! I was asked to (prove) Certify a fluxcore process, in the shop that was to be used outside. None of us, including the Welding Engineer or the Certified Welding Inspector had all of the information for this process. So we did it in the shop, everything was fine till we got it outside. The open root, killed us. Lincoln specifications required a TIGHT fitment, no root opening ( we did not have this information, If so the Fluxcore would not have been purchased)!!! Unfortunately, the entire job was designed with a 1/8" root opening so the fluxcore rig was for naught! GregH

 

[GHarman]

DJW, WOW, You've been around for a while with a lifetime of experience to prove it. Thats my point here. The youngins' can learn a great deal (including ME!) from folks like yourself that have been there and done that!



My purpose in this thread is to discuss the basics and coach as well as share experiences. Feel free to jump in if I have missed anything as well as sharing your own anecdotes. This is for the benefit of the learners. Its not as good as looking over their shoulder or holding their hand so they get the feel of a difficult concept or process, but its better than letting them go it alone. I am glad You, Jason, Coalsmoke, Dave Valentine and others have jumped in here. Dont be afraid to say what you think! The more, varied input, the better. GregH

 

[rbattelle]

This exact book is the one I just bought at Half-Price Books for $5. I figured it was out of print! It came out in 1981. It's a good book. I also have this one. [Can you tell I get all my welding lessons from this thread and books!?!?]

Greg, you have mentioned several times (on this page) going back over tacks and the weld start to "burn out" the imperfection and make the weld nice and homogeneous.

So last night I was trying some of this kind of thing, and I do pretty okay on burning out tacks. But if I try to run back over a weld at the end to get rid of the "cavity" that forms there, I find I just end up piling up more metal and making a mess.

Do you guys have any tips for welding over part of an existing bead without just making a very wide cover bead? Does that question even make sense?

On edit:
I've always felt I have a heat problem. If I run a current that is comfortable for me, the beads don't seem to penetrate sufficiently. If I run a bead that gives near-100% penetration, it seems like my beads are too hot and I quickly begin to run into burn-through. This is on thin metal (<1/4").

Oh, and GeisJ - you have a fascinating background.

Ryan

 

[DJW]

Off times a weldor with years of experience, but worked at a different job for even as short as three months, when taking a test, just a common one to see if he can even weld, CAN'T EVEN STRIKE AN ARC, I know it's strange and hardly believable but I have quite a number told me that. Men who welded on ships during the War, the job ended instantly as soon as the War ended, took another line of work, then realized they liked welding best, then looked about for a welding job at an industry or welding repair shops. Seems some lose the ability to strike an arc in a very short time. Granted the first obstacle to welding is being able to strike an arc. Then there were machines with soft stark as an aid, and latter drag rods which burned off, leaving just the right amount of gap to facilitate a constant arc. Some called them Farmer's rod, Mud rods and probably a mixture of descriptions. In 1955 when I came to the USA it was all 7 and 5, 7 straight high deposit, 5 reverse deep penetration and all position. Where I worked Jet was only used as a cover pass over multiple beads to improve the looks. Even in the early 1940s in Britain we had rods, lay a pass or two on the end of a mild steel bar, grind an edge on it and could be used as a chisel. Not sure if it was the same rod but was used to hardface caterpillar track bars. The light off the arc was pink in color.

 

[GHarman]

Greg, you have mentioned several times (on this page) going back over tacks and the weld start to "burn out" the imperfection and make the weld nice and homogeneous.



So last night I was trying some of this kind of thing, and I do pretty okay on burning out tacks. But if I try to run back over a weld at the end to get rid of the "cavity" that forms there, I find I just end up piling up more metal and making a mess.



Do you guys have any tips for welding over part of an existing bead without just making a very wide cover bead? Does that question even make sense?



Ryan[/QUOTE]



Ryan, When you start your arc and go back to the start to begin the weld, it is quick, there should be very little, if any, weld metal in the arc strike area.

Filling in your stops just requires a little dwell time with a little swirl to eliminate the crater. There are many ways to deal with tacks, especially in multiple pass welds. In single pass welds, you either burn 'em out by feathering them with a grinder or just feather the tie in edge, start the arc come bach to the thick part of the tack, or the trailing edge of the crater stop on the tack and start your bead. This depends on the joint, Groove, Fillet or lap, the technique used.



Jason does have an interesting background, doesnt He!

 

[GHarman]

DJW, There are those that have a natural affinity for hand eye coordination and they never loose it. There are some, like me, who loose it if they dont use it. Nerves and health can have a serious effect also.

There have been alot of new rods, power supplies, processes and improvements on processes developed in the last 20 years. GregH

 

[Coalsmoke]

oops, forgot to include the link to the pics..... Cummins Page

Looking good in those top pictures there. Just keep practicing and work on the consistency a bit, but really you are doing a fine job. A good method of testing at home is simple destructive testing with a big hammer. Weld two plates together and beat them apart. Look at how they failed and why. Did the weld break, did the weld tear out of the HAZ (heat affected zone), are there inclusions such as slag entrapment, or porosity that are weakening the bead, is there undercut along side of the bead that is giving the plate a place to break and not bend, and on and on goes the list. Besides, sometimes its fun to just get out that big hammer and pound on a piece of steel :-laf You're doing great, keep on trucking



All this talk of steel weights, I simply remember this. Most alloy steels I deal with on a regular basis are in the range of 0. 283lbs per cubic inch. That's a relatively easy number to remember and its easy to find the volume of dimensional steel. It's interesting to read about all these different methods people have developed.

 

[Coalsmoke]

I've been trying to catch up on all these new posts, so if I missed something just ask again. Sorry

As usual, Coalsmoke, posting pictures of welding equipment generates some questions.



What are the two welders on your cart? One of your welding cables looks like it's got some sort of abrasion-resistant sleeve over it. What is that? That's a nice looking swing-arm lamp you've got mounted there... anything special about it? I assume the tubes on the sides are electrode holders. What electrodes do you have in there, and are they all 36"? How in the world does one weld with a 36" electrode hanging off the stinger!?



The tubes you're welding - are those aluminum or stainless? I notice you've got a series of short beads on those - did you eventually join them into 1 continuous bead, or did they stay as they are in the picture? What kind of welding helmet is that on the stool?



My welder is a little Maxstar 150 (so tiny and portable that it comes with a shoulder strap!), but I'm thinking I should make myself a little cart for it. Seems like "The Thing" for welders to have.



Ryan

No worries on all the questions. I'll just answer them in order:



1. The top welder is Lincoln's new (2007) Power Mig 180 mig / wire feed welder. For its size it often amazes me with what it can do.



2. The bottom setup is a Miller Dynasty 300DX fully featured tig welder, one of the last one's Miller made in 06/07 year. it's the jewel of the shop and really is an amazing machine, some days I think it is much smarter than myself



3. It is sitting on a cooler system (Miller's Coolmate). This system circulates water through the tig torch to keep it from melting down internally. Tig welding is a whole different ball game. This fancy torch requires 3 hoses / lines run to it, water in, water out, and gas+power in. Naturally these lines are expensive to replace, so I have a cover on mine. That's what that black covered cable is. It keeps those lines form being cut and burnt.



4. The lamp is nothing special, just a soft white 60W bulb to help me see where I'm working.



5. You are right, the tubes are electrode holders, and they are all 36" long, but you don't use a stinger like with stick welding, instead you use a high voltage tig torch to create the weld heat and then feed the filler in with the other hand. A foot pedal (or other control device) allows you to control the amperage while doing this. IMHO, tig welding is an art in itself.

In the 8 tubes are varieties of aluminum filler rod, steel filler rod and stainless filler rod.



6. The tubes I'm welding are in fact aluminum, 5052 to be exact. The welds are finished in that photo, as not everything requires full pen and full coverage. Sometimes the hardest thing can be knowing when you've got enough weld (without prints of course).



7. That helmet is Miller's new Digital Elite, the nicest helmet I've ever used in fact. I have a Speedglas I use for field work though, don't like to take the pretty Elite outside in the mud.



8. The Maxstar is a good little box. DO what works best for you. If a cart doesn't make sense then don't make one. If you want one, go for it. Make it cool

 

[GiesJ]

Thanks for everyone's kind words. It's nice to be able to contribute here and not be talking about lame VP44s...



I hope it is clear that for guys just welding for themselves that things from the Code still are good things to know exist. Like the fact that 2G and 3G qualifications exist. I'm not a welder, so I don't know which is easier (and I am sure some personal preference comes to play) but knowing that welding vertically and horizontally are essentially mutually exclusive from a qualification standpoint may help when you are given an opportunity to weld one or the other.



Example - if you have done a ton of vertical (3G) and need to do a horizontal joint, it might be a good idea to practice before welding on your production piece.



Also - the most range of qualification comes from welding full pen pipe to pipe at 45°. This is called 6G. You essentially have vertical, horizontal and overhead in one coupon. This is an especially common test for our welders.



Since Coalsmoke mentioned TIG (Tungsten Inert Gas) or GTAW (Gas Tungsten Arc Welding), here's a great picture of a 8" Sch 40 pipe welded with GTAW. 100% Argon here and 70S-6 wire.



IMO, GTAW welding requires the most coordination and artistic skill. One foot on the ground, one foot on the pedal, one hand running the TIG torch (walking or rockin' the cup) and one feeding filler metal. Look at the symmetry and consistency of this pass:



#ad




I've seen the new Miller Digital shields, they are impressive! I have, thanks to a generous gift from my Miller rep, last year's auto-darkening shield. One last suggestion to guys in areas where there are mfg reps and welding supply houses. Develop a relationship with these places. Great sources of information on technique and equipment. Ask questions, find out about product demos and 'schools' that are put on from time to time. There is some free and low cost literature out there; don't be afraid to ask.





Hope that helps some!

Jason

 

[GHarman]

Jason, Nice picture of the 8" GTAW pipe. Your up-to-date technical expertise is highly valuedOo. .

Coalsmoke must be getting closer to the end of his tunnel. Hey Bud, Looks like your shop equipment is ready for any situation that may present itself. I do "COVET" this new equipment, but what I have will have to do for now. It may be all I ever need. If I must size reduce my shop and shed tools (May the LORD Forbid). There will have to be a compromise:-laf. GregH

 

[Coalsmoke]

One last suggestion to guys in areas where there are mfg reps and welding supply houses. Develop a relationship with these places. Great sources of information on technique and equipment. Ask questions, find out about product demos and 'schools' that are put on from time to time. There is some free and low cost literature out there; don't be afraid to ask.

I agree.

Jason, Nice picture of the 8" GTAW pipe. Your up-to-date technical expertise is highly valuedOo. .
Coalsmoke must be getting closer to the end of his tunnel. Hey Bud, Looks like your shop equipment is ready for any situation that may present itself. I do "COVET" this new equipment, but what I have will have to do for now. It may be all I ever need. If I must size reduce my shop and shed tools (May the LORD Forbid). There will have to be a compromise:-laf. GregH

haha, yes, LIGHT AT THE END OF THE TUNNEL (and its not a freight train either). Today my shop is officially closed. Got the last customer's job out the door yesterday afternoon after working on it 7 days a week for the past 3 weeks. There's a pretty '08 3500 in patriot blue out there somewhere with my name on it :-laf

In business I would always strive to stay versatile. Lots of stuff on wheels, 8/3 extension cords if needed etc. But on the personal user level, its a bit overkill. That top Power Mig is in my opinion a machine that just about every person interested in welding should consider. But, for the personal level, the Miller Tig might be a little overkill. At $8,000 its a fairly big chunk of change to tie up unless its making money. That said, this one has more or less paid for itself, so now I don't feel so bad about keeping it around. I have seen good welders produce good results on a $2500 tig machine. But, there are always trade offs, what this machine does with 45A input at 220V, it will take an older non-inverter style machine about 90-110A at 220V. That's a lot of juice. For the entry level tig, a Synchrowave 200 would be something for a person to look at.

 

[GHarman]

Metallurgy and filler metals

Hey All, Here is a biggie! You can learn to "manipulate the electrode" like Michaelangelo, but you still need to learn about the metals you are working with. Metallurgy is a very big part of welding. It also is a very big seperator of those that do what they are told without question and those that can be a second line of defense for themselves and/or their employer. You have heard the old addage "measure twice, cut once". It can also be translated as "you gotta know your stuff, Pilgrim!!" Situation; You have a broken auger shaft for a stock feeder. You have 6011 electrodes and an AC welder. What do you do? During prep you grind out the crack on one side of the shaft making a V-groove. It is stuck in feed, wont rotate on the delivery side of the shaft. You notice the sparks have a very fine starburst effect. There is no support manufacturer to contact for instructions. Tell me how you would handle this! GregH

 

[GHarman]

Syncrowave 350, 1989 vintage

Coalsmoke, My shop GTA/SMAW powersupply is pictured in post 158, page 11 of this thread. It is a 1st generation Inverter/rectifier hybred with all the bells and whistles. It is very smooth and has done everything I needed, 'cept portability. Weight is in excess of 500# and Input power is 230V @ 100A. Needless to say, it is hard wired into its own shutoff type fuse box. GregH