I'm sticking to CI-4+ engine oil

[amsoilman]

Here's something not commented here enough regarding at least the Chevron DELO lubes - and probably their latest CJ stuff as well - there are a number of refiners marketing "CI" and "CJ" graded oils - but Chevron is at least ONE that rates theirs as "ISOSYN".



What does that mean? Here's a couple of explanations:







Another:







I've seen a number of synthetic lube friction (wear scar) comparisons - but NEVER any comparing against Chevron DELO 400 CI4-Plus - wonder why? :-laf



How about it Wayne - got any up your sleeve? :-laf

Here is one comparison of "wear" that was done a few years back. The Amsoil (HDD) Heavy Duty Diesel 5W-30 was being compared to the 15W-40 oils to show the 30 grade was giving good wear results compared to a

heavier grade oil.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Here is one comparison of "wear" that was done a few years back. The Amsoil (HDD) Heavy Duty Diesel 5W-30 was being compared to the 15W-40 oils to show the 30 grade was giving good wear results compared to a

heavier grade oil.

YUP - I think that one has been around for a while - mid-'90's as I recall, and is pretty dated - I'd love to see one that clearly specified exactly WHICH grade of the DELO 15/40's was used - but seriously doubt it was the CI4-Plus. Nor are we ever likely to see one, since the DELO version is now obsolete - But I truly feel the DELO CI4-Plus was about as close to Amsoil, or any of the synthetics as a dino-based oil ever has come on the more common wear-related fronts.



As to the validity of the 4-ball wear test used by some outfits, including Amsoil as "proof" of the excellence of their particular brand, here's what Mobil sez, in regards to Royal Purple claims:

Question:

Oil Film Strength of Mobil 1 Compared with Royal Purple



Does Mobil 1 have less oil film strength than Royal Purple? I have seen many times the friction test of oils using the machine that test the oil film, test result shows that Royal Purple has more friction protection that Mobil 1 does, seeing these results makes me think that Mobil 1 is lacking some benefits, therefore Royal Purple has the better protection of all.

-- Guillermo Tristani, Miami, OR



Answer:

There are certain oils in the market today that use EP (extreme pressure) additives in their engine oil that are really designed for gear oils and not engine oils. Extreme pressure additives are typically not used in engine oils for a number of reasons but the most important is because they can cause engine corrosion over time. The rigs being used in these demonstrations are primarily designed for industrial applications like gear oils where extreme pressure is an important performance feature you need. These demonstration rigs have very little to do with modern engines and that is the reason that market leading oils in the industry perform poorly in these tests

Good info - or a "cover yer arse" sidestep? You decide...



A related "test" bit from a familiar source, came to this conclusion:

Diesel Oil Comparison Test



https://www.turbodieselregister.com/TDR57_Oil.pdf



This is from Bob is the Oil guy. This report is recently posted and take a look at the "best oil" section...



Price API Performance Category

$/gal. Oil # Brand/Description My Estimate Actual



Best

9. 98 1 Cummins/Valvoline Premium Blue 15W40 CI-4 plus CI-4 plus

17. 36 8 Shell Rotella T Synthetic 5W40 CI-4 plus CI-4 plus

21. 89 12 Cummins/Valvoline Premium Blue Syn. 5W40 CI-4 plus CI-4 plus

9. 98 13 Pennzoil Long Life 15W40 CI-4 plus CI-4 plus

10. 88 14 Chevron Delo 400 15W40 CI-4 plus CI-4 plus

35. 00 20 Red Line Diesel Synthetic 15W40 CI-4 plus CI-4



Good

10. 36 2 NAPA Universal Fleet Plus 15W40 CI-4 CI-4

25. 70 10 Amsoil 5W40 CI-4 CI-4 plus

13. 51 15 Caterpillar DEO 15W40 CI-4 CI-4 plus

12. 68 16 John Deere Plus-50 15W40 CI-4 CI-4

19. 99 18 Lucas 15/40 Magnum 15W40 CI-4 CI-4



Satisfactory

9. 68 3 Mobil Delvac 1300 Super 15W40 CI-4 plus CI-4 plus

7. 68 5 Wal Mart Super Tech Universal 15W40 CI-4 CI-4

9. 52 6 Castrol GTX Diesel 15W40 CI-4 CI-4

9. 52 7 Motorcraft Super Duty 15W40 CI-4 plus CI-4 plus

9. 99 19 Pilot Premium HD 15W40 CI-4 CI-4

12. 00 21 LiquiMoly Diesel Special 15W40 CI-4 CF-4



Ho-Hum (least favorite)

10. 96 4 Shell Rotella T Triple Protection 15W40 CJ-4 CJ-4

27. 55 9 Amsoil Premium Synthetic 5W40 CJ-4 CJ-4

10. 80 11 Castrol Tection 15W40 CJ-4 CJ-4

12. 99 17 Chevron Delo 400 LE 15W40 CJ-4 CJ-4

As it stands now, I consider the CJ stuff to be a step backwards in the name of EPA dictates and emissions controls - and currently removes a significant percentage of the longer term stability and wear protection as to it's usage in older, pre-3rd generation trucks.



BUT, I'm living in the past, and the DELO version CI4-Plus is pretty much history - but I'd sure snatch up several cases of the stuff, if I ever happened to stumble across it somewhere, sometime...

 

[AABEN]

I am with you Gary C J is a big move back. This is what are government has brought on us

 

[DodgeWarlock]

CI-4 spec Valvoline Premium Blue is still available under the name Premium Blue Classic. Unfortunatrely it must be bought in 5gal buckets or larger.



My local NAPA was supposed to be able to get it for me but, after 2 months wait I cancelled the order and went to Wal-mart SuperTech. So far it seems fine. I've sampled this oil change and just need to ship it off.



If you have a Valvoline distributor local you might have better luck.

 

[amsoilman]

YUP - I think that one has been around for a while - mid-'90's as I recall, and is pretty dated - I'd love to see one that clearly specified exactly WHICH grade of the DELO 15/40's was used - but seriously doubt it was the CI4-Plus. Nor are we ever likely to see one, since the DELO version is now obsolete - But I truly feel the DELO CI4-Plus was about as close to Amsoil, or any of the synthetics as a dino-based oil ever has come on the more common wear-related fronts.



As to the validity of the 4-ball wear test used by some outfits, including Amsoil as "proof" of the excellence of their particular brand, here's what Mobil sez, in regards to Royal Purple claims:





Good info - or a "cover yer arse" sidestep? You decide...



A related "test" bit from a familiar source, came to this conclusion:







As it stands now, I consider the CJ stuff to be a step backwards in the name of EPA dictates and emissions controls - and currently removes a significant percentage of the longer term stability and wear protection as to it's usage in older, pre-3rd generation trucks.



BUT, I'm living in the past, and the DELO version CI4-Plus is pretty much history - but I'd sure snatch up several cases of the stuff, if I ever happened to stumble across it somewhere, sometime...

Yes GAry, the 4-ball wear test I posted is "Dated" as you say, as the (HDD) Heavy Duty Diesel 5W-30 oil did not come out until 1997 sometime. And of course CI-4 or CI-4PLUS were not around at that time, as they came later. CH-4 came around 1998, and the CI-4 PLUS around 2002 as I recall.



The 4-Ball testing Amsoil is using is an ASTM test: D4172-94 Standard Test Method for Wear Preventive Characteristics

of Lubricating Fluid (Four-Ball Method)



Here is a synopsis of the test:



Copyright 2000 AMERICAN SOCIETY FOR TESTING AND MATERIALS, West Conshohocken, PA. All rights reserved.



1. Scope



1. 1 This test method covers a procedure for making a preliminary evaluation of the anti-wear properties of fluid lubricants in sliding contact by means of the Four-Ball Wear Test Machine. Evaluation of lubricating grease using the same machine is detailed in Test Method D2266.



Wayne

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Wayne, I guess a more direct approach/question where the "4-ball" test is concerned - especially since Mobil stated that particular test was primarily for gear lubes and similar where characteristics differ significantly from that of purely ENGINE lubes - is, do ANY major oil refiners use that particular test to evaluate and advertise their engine oils? (*I* sure haven't seen any!) OR, is it as Mobil claims, primarily for test and evaluation of gear lubes and similar where different operating characteristics and lube requirements exist?



If it IS primarily for gear lubes - and use pretty much restricted to those type tests by most lube producers, WHY does Amsoil - and apparently Royal Purple use that test on their *engine oils* - and then rely upon the results as a major advertising tool?



Should buyers be looking for, and satisfied with an engine lube largely because it provides substantial gear lube characteristics? Not a trick question, there ARE gear trains in many engine types - as well as various direct sliding metal-to-metal contacts - such as in the camshaft/valvetrain - just not sure I'd necessarily be satisfied with an engine lube that placed greater emphasis upon the gear-type characteristics, than what the rest of the engine required - as the Amsoil focus upon gear train test methods and advertising might imply...



Are there no BETTER and more pertinent oil industry tests available SPECIFICALLY designed and accepted specifically for engine lubes? IF so, where can THOSE test results by major dino and synthetic producers be seen?



NOTE - lest any here misinterpret my intent or comments where Wayne and Amsoil are concerned - Wayne is one of the most honest and courteous gentlemen on this board, and has my TOTAL respect and friendship - I use Amsoil in about EVERY internal combustion engine I have except my truck - and I buy it all from WAYNE!

 

[amsoilman]

Wayne, I guess a more direct approach/question where the "4-ball" test is concerned - especially since Mobil stated that particular test was primarily for gear lubes and similar where characteristics differ significantly from that of purely ENGINE lubes - is, do ANY major oil refiners use that particular test to evaluate and advertise their engine oils? (*I* sure haven't seen any!) OR, is it as Mobil claims, primarily for test and evaluation of gear lubes and similar where different operating characteristics and lube requirements exist?



If it IS primarily for gear lubes - and use pretty much restricted to those type tests by most lube producers, WHY does Amsoil - and apparently Royal Purple use that test on their *engine oils* - and then rely upon the results as a major advertising tool?



Should buyers be looking for, and satisfied with an engine lube largely because it provides substantial gear lube characteristics? Not a trick question, there ARE gear trains in many engine types - as well as various direct sliding metal-to-metal contacts - such as in the camshaft/valvetrain - just not sure I'd necessarily be satisfied with an engine lube that placed greater emphasis upon the gear-type characteristics, than what the rest of the engine required - as the Amsoil focus upon gear train test methods and advertising might imply...



Are there no BETTER and more pertinent oil industry tests available SPECIFICALLY designed and accepted specifically for engine lubes? IF so, where can THOSE test results by major dino and synthetic producers be seen?



NOTE - lest any here misinterpret my intent or comments where Wayne and Amsoil are concerned - Wayne is one of the most honest and courteous gentlemen on this board, and has my TOTAL respect and friendship - I use Amsoil in about EVERY internal combustion engine I have except my truck - and I buy it all from WAYNE!

Gary,

If you will look at the last sentance in 1. 1 it says the same Four-Ball Wear Test Machine is used for grease, but it refferences a differnt test method, ie. D-2266. There are many testing apperatuses that most anyone can get to test "wear" characteristics, such as the V-Block machine, where one pulls on a handle that puts pressure against a rolling bearing, but the only tests used by Amsoil Inc. , are the (ASTM) "American Standards Testing & Measures", and the (ISO) International Testing Organization. These two organizations set the standards, then any independent laboratory, can run the tests using the standards set forth in each test.

As to any other tests used for new oils, yes there are many.



Just to give you an idea, here is a link to the Motorcycle oils study done for Amsoil Inc. Keep in mind, each oil is tested using the same standards for the designated test, so you get "Apples to Apples" comparisons.



Also remember, in this document, the testing was done by an independent lab, paid for by Amsoil Inc.



Here is the link: White Paper - A Study of Motorcycle Oils



"click" on the poicture to open the document.



Wayne

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

NOT to be a nit-picker... :-laf

As to any other tests used for new oils, yes there are many.

And, THAT, was the basic question - if other refiners DO commonly use other tests for quality and performance of their oils, why does Amsoil insist on the 4-ball test for theirs?



Are other refiners selecting different test methods because those make THEIR oils look better?



OR,



Does Amsoil use the 4-ball test because it makes THEIRS look better?



In any event, it creates natural questions when ONE outfit uses ONE test method for their product, while most competitors are apparently using a different one...

 

[amsoilman]

NOT to be a nit-picker... :-laf







And, THAT, was the basic question - if other refiners DO commonly use other tests for quality and performance of their oils, why does Amsoil insist on the 4-ball test for theirs?



Are other refiners selecting different test methods because those make THEIR oils look better?



OR,



Does Amsoil use the 4-ball test because it makes THEIRS look better?



In any event, it creates natural questions when ONE outfit uses ONE test method for their product, while most competitors are apparently using a different one...

Gary,

All oil manufactures have to follow certain guidelines when they formulate an oil/lube, so the ASTM standards are used to set the testing procedures, so all laboratories can test oils/lubes, using the same exact procedures outlined in the test. For example, each Engine lmanufacturer has there own specifications, such as the Cummins CES-20081 spec. for the newest 6. 7L engine. A specific ASTM test procedure would have to be used for testing it, in order for the oil Company to list it on the container label.



The ASTM is the recognized organization by all oil companies that I know of. If you were to get on youtube, you can see other test methods that are being used for "wear", but they are NOT recognized by the oil industry, as they can be manipulated in several ways, and they are not repeatable, as there are no standards for those kind of tests.

I have seen all kinds of apparatuses that show how good some "oil additives" will lessen wear on roller bearings, but here again, these kinds of tests are bogus!

As far as the 4-ball wear test that Amsoil uses (one of many) for their engine oils, If one of the oil manufactures listed on the test result wanted to dispute it, they certainly would.

 

[tmacod]

Gary,



After looking at the the past issues and the info on the TDR, I am choosing the CI-4 oils. I am running JD Plus 50. Interestingly all of the boys at the John Deere shop were running the same in their dodge chevy and fords for years, as well as their heavy hauler trucks.

 

[Ncostello]

I use Amsoil in about EVERY internal combustion engine I have except my truck

Well then... what's it gonna take to get you past this last holdout?

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Well then... what's it gonna take to get you past this last holdout?

OH, how about $$$$$$$? :-laf:-laf



A quart here for a Honda Generator - another quart there for the outboard, and then the Onan in the motorhome - is one thing - but *3 GALLONS* in the Cummins is something else altogether! :-laf

 

[amsoilman]

OH, how about $$$$$$$? :-laf:-laf



A quart here for a Honda Generator - another quart there for the outboard, and then the Onan in the motorhome - is one thing - but *3 GALLONS* in the Cummins is something else altogether! :-laf

Hey there Gary, if you'd "Change your mind, instead of your oil", the Amsoil would be very inexpensive!:-laf Seriously, if used as per the Amsoil recommendations, as they have for over 37 years, this oil is very inexpensive!

 

[baur]

I was just at Wal-Mart and the only CI-4 still on the shelves there is their store brand. Is it any good? I picked up enough for my next change but I'm going to wait to hear from you guys if I should actually use it. Price was good at $8. 50/gal.

I've been using the Wal Mart Super Tech CI-4+ oil ever since it was rated quite well in one of the TDR lube oil articles that coincided with the expiry of my power-train warranty. I had been happy to see that the dreaded CJ rating remained off of those jugs even after showing up on all the other brands... until late last month when I found there was but a single gallon jug left without the CJ at my Wal Mart.



In my quest for a new source, I have found that my local Costco carries 55 gallon drums of Citgo CI-4 (NOT "+") for $355. I think this would be a much better option than any CJ oil, but am still looking for "+" oil while my stash holds out.

 

[bheiting]

My local Cummins distributor (Cummins NPower - White Bear Lake, MN) still has
Valvoline Premium Blue Classic 15W40, CI4+ in stock. I would guess it's available
at Cummins in other locations as well.

In regards to Amsoil or any other oil, according to John Martin in the TDR oil
evaluation, today, the base stocks are a commodity. In other words there isn't a
meaningful difference between dino or synthetic base for oil. OK, the syn. will flow
better in the cold. What matters, especially for diesels, is the additive package.
Because Amsoil only had an "average" additive package, it was rated "average".
For that reason Amsoil or any other oil should not be run past the manufacturers
service recommendations, unless a lab test proves a longer change interval is warranted.

 

[rbattelle]

Anyone recently purchase Premium Blue Classic? Are JD and Cat still selling the CI-4+ stuff?

Today was oil change day for me, but I discovered I had only 2 gallons of CI-4+ in my stockpile, so I'm scrambling to find some.

-Ryan

 

[abdiver]

I am down to 3 gal of Costco's Delo CI-4 So I am starting to scramble anyone & everyone please tell me where to go.

 

[CWright]

D-A Lubricant Co. In Indianapolis Indaina. Still makes C-I4+. Will ship right to your door, price is reasonable. I have been using it for about 3 years works great. Their phone is

1-800-645 5823. Look them up on the internet they have a lot of good products.



Clayton

 

[bheiting]

I am down to 3 gal of Costco's Delo CI-4 So I am starting to scramble anyone & everyone please tell me where to go.

Valvoline still makes the Premium Blue Classic(the best oil you can buy), and it comes in 5 gal pails. Perhaps drums as well, check Valvoline web site. NAPA should be able to get it. As far as I know, all Cummins distributors stock it.

 

[amsoilman]

I am down to 3 gal of Costco's Delo CI-4 So I am starting to scramble anyone & everyone please tell me where to go.

AMSOIL still markets the CI-4+, and is readily available.