Supertech DEF production date

[JR]

12.5 gallons/hour is really high.

60 mph at 8 mpg is only 7.5 gal/hr of fuel.

It is high but not impossible. Accelerating with a heavy load or climbing a grade for example. Also I'm sure the 2% is average and not linear, so my math is likely off.

 

[TCDiesel]

I'm going to question the chemistry of the bold statements above. It is true that not all of the oxygen gets used in combustion of diesel fuel in the cylinder. SOME of the O2 gets converted to NOx (combines with N2) and some passes through the entire exhaust system as O2..... Especially when an operator takes his/her foot off the accelerator, plenty of oxygen gets pumped though the entire exhaust system because unlike gas engines (especially with throttle bodies) the diesel engine completely defuels itself when coasting. (Not sure if it completely defuels when actively regenerating) The oxygen has to be present in the DPF for proper functionality.

CH4 is methane gas and would immediately burn with O2. So it would not combine with anything else. (Especially not extremely inert NOx.) The urea only needs heat to change to NH3 it doesn't combine with H2 or CH4 to do that. That is why you do get an ammonia smell when opening a DEF bottle because it can change to NH3 slowly even without exhaust heat. In fact, ammonia is a gas but when dissolved in water it is ammonium hydroxide NH4OH. H2 and O2 will not combine with anything other than themselves because hydrogen gas is very explosive and highly reactive in the presence of Oxygen gas. So i call out the chemistry cited above as wrong.

I could have used technical names, instead I used My own Short Abbreviations.

Not going to waste My time with You Newsa. You should just continue believing that DEF is some type of magic potion...

I certainly have no longing to Drop down School teacher level, its just more classroom puzzlement.

 

[TCDiesel]

I forgot to Add how Much Hydrogen gas is going to be created at 1/2 OZ Per Mile, and the process to create the gas is NOT possible in any exhaust system.

 

[sag2]

Absolutely, No need to do 0%, My data was accurate at near 0 NOx at 10 to 17%.

Here's how the Near NOx gets reduced in Bluetech engines , The EGR returns exhaust gases to intake to lower the Flame temp ( This is the greatest reduction in NOx ) after combustion the majority of gases travel to the SCR Catalyst, their is a NOx senor in the Turbine outlet to measure the NOx before the SCR/DPF the Precious metal react with the gases and the NOx to an element of Nitrogen the DEF, H2O CH4 reacts with the left over NOx, the water vaporizes to H, and O, the H mixes with the NOx to form AM, all the urea does covert the NOx to near 0 PPM. whatever leftover Urea converts to N and O, the left over H goes out the Tail pipe to reform as H2O.... BAME clean tail pipe emissions for generations to come....

Sag2 ,whats Odd is FCA diagnostic and testing what to use the... refractometer ... NOT WITECH readings of the Urea Sensor, I checked the Dealership records The Parts dept has NEVER sold the Urea sensor in connection with the tank, no one in the service dept has ever diagnose a bad Urea sensor. Have you ever ran into the codes with good DEF and Bad Sensor?

Their No Sensor(s) after the DEF injector, If the system cannot lower the NOx (NOx sensor 2 ) to program defaults it triggers codes or the DEF feed Pressures to DEF Injector or the DEF heat sensor all trigger codes, Or Bad connections to interrupt comm signals, Bad connections are 1/2 of SCR/DEF codes....So Dia-electric all of them or its only time if you live in areas that promote corrosion or water get past the grommets.

Absolutely, No need to do 0%, My data was accurate at near 0 NOx at 10 to 17%.

Here's how the Near NOx gets reduced in Bluetech engines , The EGR returns exhaust gases to intake to lower the Flame temp ( This is the greatest reduction in NOx ) after combustion the majority of gases travel to the SCR Catalyst, their is a NOx senor in the Turbine outlet to measure the NOx before the SCR/DPF the Precious metal react with the gases and the NOx to an element of Nitrogen the DEF, H2O CH4 reacts with the left over NOx, the water vaporizes to H, and O, the H mixes with the NOx to form AM, all the urea does covert the NOx to near 0 PPM. whatever leftover Urea converts to N and O, the left over H goes out the Tail pipe to reform as H2O.... BAME clean tail pipe emissions for generations to come....

Sag2 ,whats Odd is FCA diagnostic and testing what to use the... refractometer ... NOT WITECH readings of the Urea Sensor, I checked the Dealership records The Parts dept has NEVER sold the Urea sensor in connection with the tank, no one in the service dept has ever diagnose a bad Urea sensor. Have you ever ran into the codes with good DEF and Bad Sensor?

Their No Sensor(s) after the DEF injector, If the system cannot lower the NOx (NOx sensor 2 ) to program defaults it triggers codes or the DEF feed Pressures to DEF Injector or the DEF heat sensor all trigger codes, Or Bad connections to interrupt comm signals, Bad connections are 1/2 of SCR/DEF codes....So Dia-electric all of them or its only time if you live in areas that promote corrosion or water get past the grommets.

Here is a simple description that I use for my students. It really does not get any more complex (well the chemistry does, but the result is the same) than this. This is one of the slides I use from my textbook from CDX Publications, Light Vehicle Diesel Engines by Gus Wright. ISBN-978-1-284-14509-0. The bottom line is you need enough Urea which is converted to Ammonia to react with the NOx to convert it into the harmless gasses coming out of the tailpipe. If you don't have enough to do the chemical reaction all the NOx will not be converted and some will still come out as NOx. I'm going to make another assumption that under lower load conditions the DEF injector can deliver enough to make the chemical reaction, but under heavy loads where NOx is really high, if the DEF concentration gets too low the complete conversion will not take place. It is simple chemistry.

 

[TCDiesel]

So Sag2 Your teaching is misleading and incorrect, If You would like, come to Minnesota at Your expense I will provide the Fuel analyzer, Your just passing on info without...... First testing the info, You still have NOT provide any info other then what read, YOU have NOT put forth any effort other than non-tested info.

Also YOU do NOT provide any NOx levels prior and after the SCR or the tail Pipe Statics... If you support loop hole testing, that's the diagram I would recommend, I would like to attended your classroom...I won't be so easily fooled as students. CA is one of that last States I care to pay to visit. I may be compelled if you accept the challenge.

Sag2 please explain WHY FCA instructions demand you use other sources to measure DEF concentration.

Sag2 why don't you put forth the effort for your students and Test Your Sources, Until you provide the data that is credible evidence on tail pipe statics..... your just passing info form unreliable sources.

Members and Readers 32.5 % is a hoax pure and simple. Also even at 32.5% under certain conditions some NOx escape.

Go here https://www.epa.gov/vehicle-and-fuel-emissions-testing/national-vehicle-and-fuel-emissions-laboratory-nvfel-0 all of the regulations state Urea Based ...No law or rule on 32.5%

 

[Newsa]

So Sag2 Your teaching is misleading and incorrect, If You would like, come to Minnesota at Your expense I will provide the Fuel analyzer, Your just passing on info without...... First testing the info, You still have NOT provide any info other then what read, YOU have NOT put forth any effort other than non-tested info.

Also YOU do NOT provide any NOx levels prior and after the SCR or the tail Pipe Statics... If you support loop hole testing, that's the diagram I would recommend, I would like to attended your classroom...I won't be so easily fooled as students. CA is one of that last States I care to pay to visit. I may be compelled if you accept the challenge.

Sag2 please explain WHY FCA instructions demand you use other sources to measure DEF concentration.

Sag2 why don't you put forth the effort for your students and Test Your Sources, Until you provide the data that is credible evidence on tail pipe statics..... your just passing info form unreliable sources.

Members and Readers 32.5 % is a hoax pure and simple. Also even at 32.5% under certain conditions some NOx escape.

Go here https://www.epa.gov/vehicle-and-fuel-emissions-testing/national-vehicle-and-fuel-emissions-laboratory-nvfel-0 all of the regulations state Urea Based ...No law or rule on 32.5%

Sag2,

Your teachings have been rejected.

Now you know how Jesus must've felt.

 

[TCDiesel]

Newsa. Its teaching alright...Your keystrokes Like usual, have little to No value concerning the matter being discuss.

Jesus, Heal every person that came to Him regardless of their background or affiliations, He answer all of his opposers with truthful and correct replies.

What's the matter Newsa , you could not find the answer to My questions? or the effort, and the best you can do is use a man's Name, O I see , your just envious , Jesus teachings benefited his listeners , Something your not capable of when your agenda is Status quo.


If I wanted to defeat the DEF , it would only take a phone call and Some $$$$ to make a plug in device to send 32.5% to the DEF module.... and It would be totally legal. Their are NO laws or rules that apply. At present unless someone can provide the data that the Quality Sensor target value is 32.5% it just detects the presents of Urea. Why should Makers concern themselves with any standard that even the EPA does NOT recognize, the EPA is only concerned with the tail pipe emissions, its up to the makers to hit those targets weather its 10% or 50% concentration.

Here's the EES https://nepis.epa.gov/Exe/ZyPDF.cgi?Dockey=P100O9ZJ.pdf

API just set this 32.5%..... NVFEL just used this standard in their testing. Yes I have contacted them with My findings, Still waiting for a reply....its only been over 3.5 years.

 

[RVTRKN]

TC, your answers don’t mean a thing, we have warranty to maintain. You may be right or wrong, but it still doesn’t change that fact. Bullying Sag2 won’t change it either. Do want you want on your truck, I don’t care, it’s yours.

 

[TCDiesel]

TC, your answers don’t mean a thing, we have warranty to maintain. You may be right or wrong, but it still doesn’t change that fact. Bullying Sag2 won’t change it either. Do want you want on your truck, I don’t care, it’s yours.

Warranty another Matter, Bullying, If you call mild criticism Bullying that's your opinion, I'm sure Sag2 can handle it.

In the Fluid ,Lubricant section its states API cert. ISO 22241. Again a standard (API), water, not the problem, its the Urea that causes failure of the DEF system. you could run 100% DW and the system would not fail other than mechanical or wear, the system has less chance of failure and longer life with LOWER concentrates of Urea.

If your comfortable with 32.5% By all means keep using it.

 

[RVTRKN]

I’ll keep my warranty.

 

[SnoKing]

I’ll keep my warranty.

And Walmart will continue to keep my empty Peak Blue DEF boxes to recycle!

 

[TCDiesel]

And Walmart will continue to keep my empty Peak Blue DEF boxes to recycle!

It bugs Me when I see recyclables in trash Cans.

On My job sites My policy is NO recyclables in Company Dump containers, If I need to remove them, their go's the bonus for that Job. I provide recyclable containers.

 

[sag2]

You are correct that I have no first hand proof that running less than 32.5% Urea has any positive or negative effect on NOx reduction. But the chemistry is there and it does not lie. In order to reduce NOX levels to the level set by law, there has to be enough Ammonia introduced to the SCR CAT for the chemical reaction to take place. Virtually every manufacturer has chosen to use DEF to reduce NOx emissions to the levels required by the EPA or CARB. If you could reduce the concentration to whatever each customer thought was best, there would be no way to constantly meet any emission standard set by the EPA or CARB. In order for the emissions to be met there has to be a standard for the U.S. industry to use. I'm not sure who set the 32.5% standard, but from what your saying every manufacturer who uses DEF for the reduction of NOx was hoodwinked by the people who set the 32.5% standard. I can't comment about anyone but FCA, but I can say that the engineers I know at FCA are pretty smart, and also sure they are smarter than you and I. I have a hard time believing that thousands of engineers in the transportation industry are that stupid that they agreed to engineer their products to a standard that was totally baseless.


I want to be clear that I have never said you had to have 32.5% for the system to work. If that was true there would be CEL's and broken vehicles all over the country. There has to be some leeway. I'm saying that at some concentration the system will cease to function as designed and NOx levels will not meet the standards set.


So I will continue my test by reducing the concentration until the truck reports a problem with NOx reduction. I am 100% certain that at some level the truck will not be able to meet the target, but what that level is I don't know yet. And I certainly am not advocating that anyone else follows yours or my actions. I'm doing this as a teaching moment to hopefully show that our trucks are pretty smart, and are able to accurately detect the emissions systems are functioning as designed. Even after I prove or disprove the theory I will return to using commercially available 32.5% DEF, as that is what FCA advises I use in my truck. Not sure about you, but I still think they are smarter than me.


As to why FCA in their diagnostic requires you to use an alternate method to determine DEF concentration, it is quite simple. You use the refractometer to confirm that the concentration meets the specification of 32.5%, or that it is more or less than that to confirm the fault. If you had an oil pressure light on would you replace the engine, or would you install a known good gauge to confirm the fault was the engine or the engine monitoring system? Based on your theory you would just replace it without further diagnosis.


I may not be the smartest guy around, and I'm for sure not the best instructor around. But until you have documented published information that is accepted by the industry, that the entire industry and the EPA and CARB have it all wrong, my students will continue to be taught the "lies" in every textbook I have reviewed or use for my classes.

 

[TCDiesel]

Sag2, I will posses the Fuel analyzer again this winter, Just to Busy Now, I will document and share the results.

This Standard needs to be challenged.... It took the EPA over 2 years after I publicly published the 3.0 would Fail on road Testing. How would I know this info without the data. Not only was I correct , I was dead on WHY it would fail... I didn't think it was necessary at the Time to record and video the results... I won't make the same mistake.

I also have Fiat data on the 3.0 back to 2013...... So FCA and even their leaders claimed I was Wrong, I was correct and FCA is now going to pay over $300+ in civil penalties.

Until YOU test your teachings , You are just passing on Possibly incorrect info, and all the keystrokes or verbal teaching will NOT change that.

FCA other sources to confirm what, You have NOT provided the target info, I have the same access as You, and I cannot find it.

You claim the EPA, find Me 32.5% on any EPA document... I don't recognize CARB, if they Have a problem With TC Diesel or Me, I will do battle with them in Court.

 

[Newsa]

I also have Fiat data on the 3.0 back to 2013......

How did you do that? It wasn't introduced to the US until the 2014 ecodiesel model year.

 

[TCDiesel]

I want to be clear that I have never said you had to have 32.5% for the system to work. If that was true there would be CEL's and broken vehicles all over the country. There has to be some leeway. I'm saying that at some concentration the system will cease to function as designed and NOx levels will not meet the standards set.

Their is and I already posted that 10-17% is could for 95% of Driving, the 3.0VM about the best test mule on the pavement in America, its fifthly dirty engine in its current config, That why FCA cheated, and your putting faith in the same Lair's.

You cannot inject enough DEF on a standalone setup, If the EGR (In head or external) and SCR is not used in conjunction with the DEF would in effective. DEF is NOT the primary source of NOx elimination. In fact the EPA recognize Ammonia as the only source on a standalone setup on reduction of NOx.

 

[TCDiesel]

The first year of the ecodiesel


How did you do that? It wasn't introduced to the US until the 2014 model year.

Someone care enough to leak the info to Me VIA flash drive, I posted the 3.0 failure rate 250+ per Month (2016) before it became public, So far I have over 1000 pages of Fiat internal communications about half is now public. I recognize most of the Info as private and I'm not going to share it with the likes of )(**(^&. Anyone is welcome to view it here at My home or office.

 

[sag2]

You claim the EPA, find Me 32.5% on any EPA document... I don't recognize CARB, if they Have a problem With TC Diesel or Me, I will do battle with them in Court.

I believe you that the EPA does not say you have to use 32.5% urea. What they do say is you have to meet the emissions specification. They then leave it up to the industry to find technology that gets their product to meet the standard. So people smarter than me landed on the 32.5% specification that the entire industry would utilize. If everyone used their own concentration how would the market support it? Would you have to purchase your DEF from the dealer because Ford decided they wanted 20%, FCA wanted 32.5%, and Chevy wanted 28%?
It would be a logistical nightmare for the industry and customers.
It would be the same thing if each manufacturer selected other than 87 minimum octane for their gas engines. What if one manufacturer decided they needed 82 or 100 octane? How would the industry handle it?

 

[TCDiesel]

I believe you that the EPA does not say you have to use 32.5% urea. What they do say is you have to meet the emissions specification. They then leave it up to the industry to find technology that gets their product to meet the standard. So people smarter than me landed on the 32.5% specification that the entire industry would utilize. If everyone used their own concentration how would the market support it? Would you have to purchase your DEF from the dealer because Ford decided they wanted 20%, FCA wanted 32.5%, and Chevy wanted 28%?
It would be a logistical nightmare for the industry and customers.
It would be the same thing if each manufacturer selected other than 87 minimum octane for their gas engines. What if one manufacturer decided they needed 82 or 100 octane? How would the industry handle it?

I agree, So they let API set the standard and charge $, API gets .001 of every gallon sold plus $7500, For Cert and depending on size Annul fee's.

 

[TCDiesel]

Sag2 I'm enjoying the conversation, But I have to go GTG, will be back later today or tomorrow.