What am I getting into?

[Patrick Dolan]

I have upfitted a couple of Rams for my best bud, and really liked his '03 3500 Dual Cab for its utility, but he has an in-house mechanic so I haven't actually done any work on that truck. Until now. My trusty '97 K15 6.5 pretty much used up now, so I bought the 3500 for my DD/chore truck.

I think I will need a fuel pressure gauge? Is there a warning light setup anyone uses to warn of impending lift pump failure? Am I correct in assuming this is kind of Big Deal #1? There is about 140k miles on the truck, and other than I think one lift pump failure, nothing else seems to have gone wrong.

The gearbox is another deal. 5th gear syncro is shot, and has been forever. What is the cure and where do I get the parts (this is an NV gearbox, not so??). What else needs replacing when I am in there. Clutch was long ago changed out for dual disc, so nothing to change there.

Anything esle in engine/trans I need to worry about or look at?

 

[Wayne M.]

Hello and welcome.
Ok so I’m understanding that you now have a 2003 5.9, 6 speed (NV5600) truck.
Regarding the gear clash, I would make sure the clutch hydraulics are good, and I would do a fluid change. Use Pennzoil Synchromesh oil. That was the factory fill. Some recommend overfilling the transmission by removing the shifter and putting extra fluid in after it comes out of the fill plug in the case.
I understand your concern for the lift pump, but on this (Common rail fuel system) engine, it’s not that big a deal, like it is on a 2nd gen truck. There are gauges and I think BD still makes the low pressure light kit you can get at Geno’s garage.
The big issue is the fuel filtration, or lack of from the factory. These fuel injectors need the best protection you can afford. There are many fuel filtration kits available to solve the issue. Search the 3rd gen forum for research on this. It should be your main concern. If you live in a cold climate, I recommend a kit that keeps the filters under the hood.

 

[Patrick Dolan]

Hello and welcome.
Ok so I’m understanding that you now have a 2003 5.9, 6 speed (NV5600) truck.
Regarding the gear clash, I would make sure the clutch hydraulics are good, and I would do a fluid change. Use Pennzoil Synchromesh oil. That was the factory fill. Some recommend overfilling the transmission by removing the shifter and putting extra fluid in after it comes out of the fill plug in the case.
I understand your concern for the lift pump, but on this (Common rail fuel system) engine, it’s not that big a deal, like it is on a 2nd gen truck. There are gauges and I think BD still makes the low pressure light kit you can get at Geno’s garage.
The big issue is the fuel filtration, or lack of from the factory. These fuel injectors need the best protection you can afford. There are many fuel filtration kits available to solve the issue. Search the 3rd gen forum for research on this. It should be your main concern. If you live in a cold climate, I recommend a kit that keeps the filters under the hood.

Thanks for the reply, Wayne.

No, the gearbox is not suffering lube or clutch issues, 5th gear syncro is totally shot. Looking for source of NV parts aftermarket. I have jobber account for my Euro cars, but have been away from turning wrenches on the trucks for a long time (modifying, yes, repairing, not so much). Also, have done some GM and Ford (OK, if you have a Powerjoke, A LOT of fixing!!! but a long time back) but have only upfitted new Dodges. Very different story living with the long term stuff.

I had assumed a lift pump failure would raise hell with the HPCR pump as well. When one of these goes sideways in a VW, you end up replacing the whole fuel system from metal particle contamination. Will look into filtration. Don't imagine a set of injectors are exactly cheap for this engine.

And, yes, cold weather considerations are huge part of setting a vehicle up to live around here. I run Delvac 1 in most of my diesels (can't on the newer VWs), put a little silicone heater pad under the batteries (cold enough here they won't take any charge when at worst temps) and of course we have some kind of block heaters in pretty much everything.

 

[Wayne M.]

The HPFP in this case is a CP3, and they’re probably the most robust of them all. Again, you have a vast resource here on the TDR for research and catching up on HPFP and injector topics.
on the trans, parts can be tough to get From what I’ve read. I haven’t had a reason to buy anything internal for mine yet, but by happens-chance I’ve seen a lot right on Rock Auto. Still I urge you to do a fluid drop and refill with the proper oil, just so you know what’s in there. The 5600 is sensitive to fluid quality.

 

[sag2]

A great resource is Standard Transmission and Gear in Ft. Worth TX. Joe Donnelly had a write up in one of the prior issues on the work they did on his transmission.
They offer 15% off for TDR members and have been a long time advertiser in the magazine.

 

[DavidC]

The ISSPRO fuel pressure gauge has a red light for warnings built in. The downside is you have to buy the program cable/software to program it. Geno's has both.

 

[BigPapa]

I agree with Wayne, fuel pressure to the CP3 isn't as critical as the VP44. If I'm not mistaken, the Duramax ran a CP3 without a supply or lift pump at all.

I would suggest you keep a #4 Injector Line and a wrench to put it on in the glove box. Cummins Part Number is 5289447.

Here's a link to Joe's write up from Geno's Blog:

http://blog.genosgarage.com/wordpress1/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/TDR67_MyNV5600.pdf

On your transmission, you may have a fluid issue after all. From what I understand, at least on the NV4500, synchro problems typically stem from running the wrong fluid. The NV4500 fluid is Castrol Syntorq which is a GL-4 fluid. Most Gear Oils now are GL-5 and fellows make the mistake that Gear Oil is like Engine Oil, the numbers change and are backwards compatible, CJ-4>CK-4>CL-4, etc. This is not the case with Gear Oils. There are additives or chemicals in GL-5 that deteriorates the friction material on the synchros of the NV4500. This may not be the case with the NV5600 and I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong. I'm finding that New Venture trannies are very particular about what fluids they require. When I had an NV4500 I ran Amsoil MTG which was GL-4, was specifically labelled for use in the NV4500, and cheaper and more readily available in my area than the Mopar or GM Syntorq. I'm sure they have a similar product for the NV5600.

 

[Wayne M.]

The factory fill for a 5600 is pennzoil Syncromesh. I just looked it up. It’s $9.99 a bottle at Advance auto parts.

 

[Patrick Dolan]

The factory fill for a 5600 is pennzoil Syncromesh. I just looked it up. It’s $9.99 a bottle at Advance auto parts.

Just to set the record straight about GL-4 vs. GL-5 gear oils: BOTH use sulphur/phosphorus compounds as EP additives (Extreme Pressure). Sulphur can be aggressive at corroding copper alloys (such as brass or bronze syncro rings). The difference is that there is a lot more of such EP additives in GL-5 oils, thus why many diffs run that, but gearboxes often only GL-4.

I understand what you are suggesting in running higher oil level. Yes, this is a direct exposure of design defect, and while a crude way to get around it, should offer a bit more cooling. Not sure why NV gearboxes have so much trouble with syncros, but they sure seem to. Not looking forward to having to rip this one apart, but I guess that's the cost of doing (NV) business.

BTW: before anyone makes a crack about how bad these gearboxes are: I have replaced 3 ZF 6 speeds in 200,000 miles on my F-450 at a mere 250 HP. It tows very heavy, and has been used as an aux gearbox test machine, so got watched very closely by some very experienced engineers, and I have spent a LOT of time with fully instrumented gearbox, aux box and diff doing testing.

Bottom line is: these are LIGHT duty trucks with medium duty engines and "tow ratings" (written by the advertising/marketing people I imagine). If you use the power that the engines have, you had better have some aux cooling, some REALLY good full synth lube, and the budget to replace the box once in a while.

 

[HPSimpson]

Welcome to TDR the Cummins Ram trucks the folks on this form who knowlege and experience on repairs and prevention to your truck.

 

[Wayne M.]

Good luck, Mr. Dolan.

 

[Patrick Dolan]

I agree with Wayne, fuel pressure to the CP3 isn't as critical as the VP44. If I'm not mistaken, the Duramax ran a CP3 without a supply or lift pump at all.

I would suggest you keep a #4 Injector Line and a wrench to put it on in the glove box. Cummins Part Number is 5289447.

Here's a link to Joe's write up from Geno's Blog:

http://blog.genosgarage.com/wordpress1/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/TDR67_MyNV5600.pdf

Scott: thanks for that link. Told me a lot about this "new to me" gearbox. Makes me wonder how to deal with it when I finally have to pull it out - as shipping stuff from here to TX is not that easy (or cheap).

 

[cerberusiam]

Where exactly are you located? Shipping is the only way these days, too easy to get caught in the pandemic craziness. Blumenthal's in OKC and Standard Transmission in Texas are your 2 choices. Right now Texas is a mess, Oklahoma is much better but would not advise travel right now.

Since you are new to the CTD suggest you get used to the norms of the engine and trans. To do that you need gauges to see what is going on; analog boost, rail pressure, EGT, and lift pump pressure at the CP-3 inlet. Suggest you also invest in AutoEnginuity software with the Dodge feature pack, that will give you code reader that will clear codes, logging capability, and needed tests for the CTD in a Dodge truck. ISSPRO gauges will allow you to set limits and a tattle tale light, the analog setup gives you consistency against what the ECM sees in its sensors. Electronics on a 17 year old truck will be the weak spot so trusting then is not advised.

If the lift pump has been moved form the back of the filter to the tank you should be good for stockish power. Check that first and then decide what you want for a lift pump, internal or external. You want to maintain a minimum of 3 psi at the CP-3 inlet at all times, when pressure drops below that is when problems can show up. If you follow the general rules for gear rotor pumps then you want a constant 18-20 psi at the CP-3 inlet to limit cavitation which is what will kill these CP-3 pumps quickly. That was the downfall of the GM system with a lack of an LP, tended to shell the HP pump a lot sooner. Plus a simple LP on a GM product was worth 25-30 HP.

The AutoEnginuity will allow you view injector performance and run tests so get that first and see where the injection system really stands for performance. Pretty much guess you will need upper and lower VC gaskets and maybe even o-rings or new injector harness due to leaks. At that point you can check the rail lines and see if they demand replacing.

 

[Patrick Dolan]

Cerb: I am near Saskatoon SK, and shipping stuff across the border is an expensive PITA. Not in a hurry to deal with this, as up to my ears in "catchup" projects at home and on farm due to being gone for last 10 summers. Winter is my flexible time, and a -40 morning gives me a good excuse to head South. I have F450 and FLD120 for heavy stuff in the meantime, as this thing is taking over duties my K15 (and my wife's Q7) have been doing for a while. I am sort-of retired from what has been my summer contracting work (but have actually done MORE days for them in the 3 years since "leaving") and it some times takes me down to the Tulsa office, and that would be a good chance to throw a gearbox into the trailer and have it done while I am on the job. Opportunity will trump schedule unless catastrophic failure intervenes.

Your post brings me much closer to getting a good picture of this powertrain, but notice you made no mention of fuel filtration? I have this same concern over similar Bosch pump in Q7. For the oil I work with now, I go well below 1 micron absolute rating, but all of those filters are HUGE (as in way too big for a truck, never mind a car). Our experience in the VW world is an HP pump failure contaminates the whole system and is a major disaster ($6k+). My solution as a former tribologist has been to use a Canola oil based fuel additive (one of our kids wrote her thesis on the lube properties, VERY impressive) but the company manufacturing went under, so I am now looking to sub-micron filtration BEFORE the pump - that does nothing to protect the rest of the system if the HP pump fails. Any suggestions on who makes a really small, really good filter???

In anticipation of your next return question: No, I have not had the opportunity to do a failure analysis of a VW HPFP to ascertain if these are lube failures or contamination induced failures. VW themselves ALWAYS claims that the failures are due to the customer doing something such as fueling with gasoline that cause the failures, but the numbers are far, far too big to claim it was all a "dumb customer" (or "dumb dealer" as I was always subject to) mistake instead of an arrogant engineer screwup.

 

[Wayne M.]

The issue with 3gen Ram fuel filtration boils down to Daimler Chrysler (at the time) undercutting the Cummins spec for filtration. Cummins just let DCX have their way. So unless this truck was updated, you’ll need to do it to bring the system up to spec.
If you’ll look at a true medium Cummins 5.9 application of that era, you’ll see a spin on water seperator or similar Racor unit, and a Cummins filtration 2 micron spin on mounted near the CP3.
These kits I reccomended you look at that give you that 2 micron filtration that’s originally missing.

 

[Patrick Dolan]

The issue with 3gen Ram fuel filtration boils down to Daimler Chrysler (at the time) undercutting the Cummins spec for filtration. Cummins just let DCX have their way. So unless this truck was updated, you’ll need to do it to bring the system up to spec.
If you’ll look at a true medium Cummins 5.9 application of that era, you’ll see a spin on water seperator or similar Racor unit, and a Cummins filtration 2 micron spin on mounted near the CP3.
These kits I reccomended you look at that give you that 2 micron filtration that’s originally missing.

Thanks. That I will do immediately.

 

[Wayne M.]

FYI, here’s my interpretation of the issue, and what I designed for my own truck. It’s been flawless.

https://www.turbodieselregister.com/threads/final-fuel-filtration.247515/#post-2390075

Since I did this, there’s an updated filter- 5814, but there are many filters in this application.

 

[cerberusiam]

If you schedule with Blumenthal's you may be able to do a swap old for a reman quickly if that fits needs. Whether they can rebuild one in your time frame of stay is a question for them. They do not like to give time frames until they look at what is needed.

I did not mention filtration because it is a given on anything but the 2013+ trucks, more and better filters. The CP-3 does not like solids greater than 3 um so that is the target. Water filtration is as much stripped out as can be done, additional WS and existing best WS in the stoick filter housing as possible. Filters and additive package will pretty cure the CP-3 failures, aside from a massive load of bad fuel.

Were the VW failures the CP-3.x or CP-4.x versions? The CP-4 compromise is turning out as bad as the VP-44 mistake, they are ultra-picky about fuel.

Yes, if a HPFP grenades it is replace everything from CP-3 to injectors, even messes up the rial and sensors with fine metal in it.

 

[Patrick Dolan]

From what I understand about the VW HPFP failures (I have watched from afar in the VE pump world...that never seems to fail) they were CP4x from 2009-14 on the 4 cylinder cars (not sure about the 3.0, as I just started with those). The mode of failure was the cam / roller galling and the contaminants from that scoring the piston and bore...but no way of knowing which came first: the horse or the cart. It SEEMS that bio-D (by that I meant B5) cars did a lot better than "dry" ULSD engines.

 

[Tuesdak]

The NV5600 is a slow shifting transmission because all the gears are meshed and spinning all the time. It drops into gear only when it's ready and you can't sports car force it. You have a lot of mass to change speed on each gear change. Further it's hard on oil by shearing it down about every 30K miles. Every rebuild should have the rear bearing lube mod machined into the case that, now retired, Richard of Standard Transmission (Arizona) came up with. Than maybe you can run the stock oil level.

The heavier clutch means more mass to change RPM against a shot 3rd gear syncro. IMO sounds like it's time for a rebuild.

As the article indicates it's a complex transmission to rebuild so choose carefully where you have it done.

One of the biggest improvements you can do is fix the sloppy shifting feel by replacing the bushing on the shifter.

https://core-shifters.com/products/...ot-ball-cup-bushing-99-05-dodge-ram-2500-3500