Timken Clutch Release bearing, NV5600

[Darkbloodmon]

Yep, I ran Amsoil for 40k intervals and my NV5600 liked it, just thought I’d ask

If I had clean containers I would've reused it but I was short at the time. I'll try for 40K this next interval. If you ever need to replace the rear output seal clean out the rear output housing before installing a new seal. I found there were a lot of wear material deposits collected back there that didn't find their way back to the belly near the magnet.

 

[GCroyle]

Foot on floorboard and noise goes away, bearing doesn’t sound like culprit. That’s heaviest load on bearing. Bad bearing should be screaming.

any chance for a video of noise and post to YouTube ? Film it showing clutch pedal view door open so it picks up trans noise and shows pedal position. Up down repeat a few cycles.

Some clutch discs do a great job of controlling gear noise filtering it out. Then other types of discs are more tractor grade crude and strong high torque capacity. But they don’t filter noise well. They sound more like a tin can with nuts and bolts in it just rolling around when engine is running and clutch engaged pedal up.

 

[Darkbloodmon]

Foot on floorboard and noise goes away, bearing doesn’t sound like culprit. That’s heaviest load on bearing. Bad bearing should be screaming.

any chance for a video of noise and post to YouTube ? Film it showing clutch pedal view door open so it picks up trans noise and shows pedal position. Up down repeat a few cycles.

Some clutch discs do a great job of controlling gear noise filtering it out. Then other types of discs are more tractor grade crude and strong high torque capacity. But they don’t filter noise well. They sound more like a tin can with nuts and bolts in it just rolling around when engine is running and clutch engaged pedal up.

Sure i'll grab a video.

 

[Darkbloodmon]

Sure i'll grab a video.

Vidya, I recommend head phones. I do apologize about the vertical screen, it drives me crazy when people do it.

 

[GCroyle]

DBM,

Send that to your clutch supplier and ask for comments from them. I looked at your link to supplier, that's a classic 8 spring HD damper. Their picture covered up a couple of springs so I could not see if all 8 the same or if they slipped in a soft spring to act as a small simple predamper. I made one for me that way and it really helped knock down the rattle. It's built tough but doesn't have ability to filter out gear noise like OE design does.

The design of the torsion damper springs, internal friction elements and how far it can rotate internally is the most challenging element of a traditional clutch system. It's like a marriage counselor between engine and trans.

Also I read the description in your link, I don't think they addressed any gear noise description, quiet as original, slightly noisy or get ear plugs etc.

These discs have been used for decades in medium duty trucks and up heavy transmissions. I bet it will/can get quieter as it gets used litterally breaking in and wearing off burrs and sharp stamped edges.

Contact supplier and consult with them that video is good.

Gary

 

[BigPapa]

Could a lot of the transmission noise be from the Short Shifter he's installed and commented on in another thread?

Update on the Core shifter.

No spacer plate is used during installation of this shifter and because of that there is more engine and transmission noise that you can hear.

 

[Darkbloodmon]

Could a lot of the transmission noise be from the Short Shifter he's installed and commented on in another thread?

This is a totally different noise from the short shifter, I could just hear the engine and trans more after installing it and a few hours of drive time.

This grinding noise creates a vibration you can feel in the cab and on the pedal. Clutch in: near quiet, clutch out: and the noise over powers the engine. I've had family members who drive with me on a daily basis listen to make sure my ears aren't biased, and they can tell a difference standing a few feet away from the truck.

 

[Darkbloodmon]

DBM,

Send that to your clutch supplier and ask for comments from them. I looked at your link to supplier, that's a classic 8 spring HD damper. Their picture covered up a couple of springs so I could not see if all 8 the same or if they slipped in a soft spring to act as a small simple predamper. I made one for me that way and it really helped knock down the rattle. It's built tough but doesn't have ability to filter out gear noise like OE design does.

The design of the torsion damper springs, internal friction elements and how far it can rotate internally is the most challenging element of a traditional clutch system. It's like a marriage counselor between engine and trans.

Also I read the description in your link, I don't think they addressed any gear noise description, quiet as original, slightly noisy or get ear plugs etc.

These discs have been used for decades in medium duty trucks and up heavy transmissions. I bet it will/can get quieter as it gets used litterally breaking in and wearing off burrs and sharp stamped edges.

Contact supplier and consult with them that video is good.

Gary

Since all the components in the housing are wearable items that can be replaced am I potentially doing any damage to the transmission driving it as is?

Ill send them an email and give them a call about it before I take it out for a heat cycle.

I wasn't able to post pictures of the clutch or pressure plate here because of file size, thankfully I still had some before install. You can few them on my Instagram the post is titled "Clutch noise trouble shooting"

 

[Darkbloodmon]

Just got off the phone with Phoenix Friction, this noise is not normal by any means, It's not a break in procedure feature till it settles. I mentioned all the components I used on it in conjunction with their clutch and pressure plate. Rep I spoke to did jump on Southbend's adjustable hydro being the cause but he wasn't as convinced when I explained how it worked in that it only adjusts the pedal travel and not the plunger travel on the fork. Never the less I'll give south bend a call to confirm this as they have the shortest warranty window of all the components in this clutch job.

I sent the rep a follow up email of all the components used with part numbers on this job and a link to the video.

Either way he agrees this is not normal, something is mechanically wrong and when the trans comes out there should be rather obvious signs of what is wrong.

So I won't be getting a heat cycle on this for a test drive.....

 

[MGreer]

DBM, hate to see the trouble you're having. I don't know if this is the same on the 03 as it is on the 04 MY. I assume it is. The fork can be installed wrong, end to end. This will throw off the position of the release bearing and not let the bearing pivot/rock on the fork like it should. If you were unaware of this, pay close attention to the fork position if you end up pulling the transmission back out.

 

[Darkbloodmon]

DBM, hate to see the trouble you're having. I don't know if this is the same on the 03 as it is on the 04 MY. I assume it is. The fork can be installed wrong, end to end. This will throw off the position of the release bearing and not let the bearing pivot/rock on the fork like it should. If you were unaware of this, pay close attention to the fork position if you end up pulling the transmission back out.

It is the same, p/n on the fork needs to be in the bottom left position. Valid point, as meticulous as I was with this install, cleaning all the threads, using Loctite, and marking the bolts after torqueing I could've over looked this. Everything is on the table at this point because something is drastically wrong.

The trans will be coming out and I'll be taking a swath of pictures as to what caused this so everyone else can avoid my mistake(s)

 

[Darkbloodmon]

Just got off the phone with SouthBend

The parts I'm using are OE spec for fit and function

For those following I'm using SouthBend's roller bearing flywheel P/N : 1670104-6

As well as SouthBend's adjustable hydro assembly P/N : HYD-X-750

As I assumed and as the rep confirmed the adjustable hydro is only for pedal travel/pedal height, it has no affect on the rod travel of the plunger on the clutch fork.

The flywheel is OE spec in all dimensions except for the pilot bearing being a pressed HD roller bearing with the same internal dimensions for the input shaft.

Safe to say the SBC components can be ruled out and that there isn't anything left but to pull it and take pictures.

 

[Tuesdak]

Update for those wondering how to reseal the input housing on an NV5600.

http://blog.genosgarage.com/wordpress1/2012/05/tdr-64-rebuilding-the-nv5600-transmission/

I would guess the noise is from ... you may have changed the shimmed NV5600 mainshaft clearances by different gasket or sealer thickness. The link above discusses it. It took two shops to get mine done right for just a clutch change. Very few places can get these transmissions rebuilt well.

 

[Darkbloodmon]

http://blog.genosgarage.com/wordpress1/2012/05/tdr-64-rebuilding-the-nv5600-transmission/

I would guess the noise is from ... you may have changed the shimmed NV5600 mainshaft clearances by different gasket or sealer thickness. The link above discusses it. It took two shops to get mine done right for just a clutch change. Very few places can get these transmissions rebuilt well.

I would've loved to have found this before I replaced my input shaft seal it would've discouraged me from messing with it. I think you may be right., I found a picture of my clutch housing preassembled ready to drop in and my fork is facing the correct position, I marked it on the face I'll post a picture below. You can barely make it out but the part number is in the bottom left, I marked the H on that end mimicking the OEM markings of the used one.

This is what frustrates me I try to be thorough and end up screwing myself over. Doing the most and getting the least. I sourced my input seal and sealant from Torque King 4x4 and called numerous times leaving many messages waiting for a call back on the correct procedure for resealing this retainer. Nothing, no call backs. So I end up going to the least reputable place for information other than watching others fail before you do. YouTube, I'm talking to this guy who rebuilt them and he said after the transmission is built and shimmed as long as you put it back you don't need any more and less shims. Just a simple remove, reseal and replace.

I should've just used oil to hold the shim for assembly, I'll attempt to ask Cody Albrecht of Super Stick Transmissions and get a definitive answer. I may have just boned myself from a clutch job to a trans rebuild.

 

[GCroyle]

I'm sticking with the torsion damper is not filtering out the Cummins pulsations just passing them straight thru to the NV5600. Gear teeth just slapping back and forth.

Care to ask Phoenix for a copy of the torsion damper curve for the disc they supplied? That curve plots angular displacement vs torque, it's the signature of what the damper does. Look at an OE NV5600 disc, see all the different springs they get compressed in a progressive fashion, little bit of torque to twist X degrees, more for x+2, still more for x+4 degrees etc. Hydro's are on the sidelines for this issue.

If you had any way to put an OE disc on an input shaft like it was clamped in a vise and can't turn, now slide the disc down on the shaft. Gloves on, now try to rotate the facings and watch the damper springs compress and the disc rotates.

MANY years ago at Sachs we had a fancy MB car disc and progressive staged damper for show and tell but they took out the real springs and put piano wire springs in it. You could easily see the piano wire type springs inside this mock up and you had a handle in the splines. Hold disc and twist the shaft and see the damper flex thru it's operational range.

But cannot rule out damaged damper or a damper that is not functioning correctly. And just as a CYA for my .02$ this is assuming a correctly functioning NV5600 with no underlying problems.

I installed an 8 spring damper disc like yours in my 2005 years ago that was the crude simple version an ordinary 8 spring w/o any sensitive damper. I took it back out the next day too noisy for my taste.

 

[Darkbloodmon]

Care to ask Phoenix for a copy of the torsion damper curve for the disc they supplied?

I could ask but I can't really do much with that information. At most they'll ask for their clutch back to test it verify weather it's in spec before sending me out a new one. This is on the assumption that their clutch component(s) are bad. A company with near 30 years of commercial and industrial experience in clutch and brake components with major business contracts from UPS, Fedex, Wonderbread etc. What are the chances that I scored the one clutch designed to function in the complete opposite manner of what im experiencing?

This isn't an aggressive clutch, It's according to them the smoothest gauging clutch they have to offer. This noise isn't normal. "This Phoenix Friction Kevlar clutch guarantees a chatter free engagement, and is without a doubt the smoothest engaging clutch on the market today".

I'm of the opinion that I screwed this up opening the input seal retaining housing.

If you had any way to put an OE disc on an input shaft like it was clamped in a vise and can't turn, now slide the disc down on the shaft. Gloves on, now try to rotate the facings and watch the damper springs compress and the disc rotates.

I examined the old disc when I had it out, it had more play and give on the retainer that sits on the splines than the new one. New disc had no play that I could move by hand on the same retainer. Keep in mind our conversation trying to Identify the mfg. date on the old clutch I think it was around 07 give or take and this was an OEM Mopar organic supplied by LUK. I know for a fact that this truck was used previously to tow; my bed is riddled with holes and my frame with weld on brackets for a 5th wheel mount. The clutch that came out of it is most likely the 2nd it's had and it's been used up until I got it with it's blown out non existent rear shocks.

I installed an 8 spring damper disc like yours

This one is a 16 spring, there are smaller internal ones of the larger 8, it may be hard to tell from the pictures.

assuming a correctly functioning NV5600 with no underlying problems.

I can't say I've had problems with the trans at all on the previous clutch, For what it's worth I taught myself stick on this truck so I can't compare it to anything else as a baseline but I'm very in tune with how it feels and operates, there isn't a sound or vibration I'm not aware off. I have a daily drivers log full of date, and time stamped trips every time I turn the key and cut it off. I'm on my third notebook since ownership, I don't ignore sounds or symptoms I write them down. Everything was nominal on the transmission side before I tore it apart.

I don't doubt your experience or advise, I really appreciate it, but i'll be the first one to call human error and blame myself for this.

Everything lines up, everything I did on this clutch job was text book other than the input shaft seal replacement.

 

[bcbender]

FWIW,.. I tore into my NV5600 when the input shaft was worn beyond use due to running w/o a pilot bearing for many many miles. As mentioned they are complicated transmissions, Once I found out that I had to replace the input shaft and its a first in / last out part I took a stab at it.. very heavy parts and alot of fun to remove the gear train from the case as it has to be done as an assembly... After many frustrating nights I ended up sending it to Blumenthal in OK, they rebuild them for FCA, other than being costly it came back better than ever, no more noise and rumbling, and a 2y warranty. I hope you find the problem and its not the trans, but gasket thickness can change the bearing pre-load, Did you use anaerobic sealant as recommended in the repair manual?

 

[Darkbloodmon]

Did you use anaerobic sealant as recommended in the repair manual?

Yes, anaerobic sealant was used, same as factory. New oil guide used, shim was not changed, housing bolts we're torqued to sepc, orange Loctite used on all the bolts OEM ones were gobbed with blue. I was not able to find any text on this procedure, my 03 FSM only provided the torque spec for the housing retainer. Where I think I messed up is using small dabs of anaerobic sealant to hold the shim in place for assembly.

Everything else I did was text book by the T, thank fully I had pictures of the preassembled clutch fork assembly to confirm I didn't flip it, the only other thing I can think of being wrong on the clutch side of the install is if I flipped the disc backwards. I don't think this is the case though; the raised and non raised sides of the disc are very distinct.

I'll give Blumental a call and a few other shops on this procedure and see what they say, Are there any reputable shops in the South East?

 

[bcbender]

Assuming it all went back together right it should be ok but not sure if sealant behind the shim could be enough to throw then endplay out of wack? stupid question but the countershaft oil guide and any shims made it back in right? On mine, I talked to the guys at Blumenthal many days (and nights) before they talked me into sending them the trans. They may be able to help you diagnose also if its something little, I found them to be very helpful hence the reason I broke down and sent it to them.. I ended up with a worn mainshaft and input shaft due to the lack of a pilot bearing for so long and towing heavy in 6th. Ended up replacing the input shaft, main shaft, 3rd and 4th gear and input on the counter, plus soft parts.. But is was all good after that. .

 

[Tuesdak]

I would give @GCroyle damper spring suggestion more weight here.

When I did a SB clutch it was noisier esp. in a drive through, but, nothing like you have. Further how many miles on this NV5600 and how does it shift? IMO people change clutches and forget the trans syncro's and bearings also wear out. Esp. when the oil gets sheared down in viscosity in 30K miles or so. The fellow (Richard Poels of Standard Transmission and Gear) who came out with the lube mods appears to have retired and closed his Arizona shop. They still have their Texas location. I had my trans rebuilt there as it was notchy into 3rd and a PIA for reverse. The syncro's were worn "flat" and the bearings were starting to mark up. It shifted a lot better after a rebuild.

Again you can have two problems, but, the noise could be just the clutch damper.