Guns, Bows, Shooting Sports, and Hunting 12 guage slugs vs a bear?

[crobertson1]

Here is the story about Greg Brush that I received in an e-mail:



"This guy lives just outside of Soldotna.



Friends,



Have I got a story for you guys!

King season is over, and since I had a day off before silvers start, I

Thought I would go for a walk! This occurred at 11:16 am this morning

(Sunday), just 2/10 of a mile from my house, ON OUR ROAD while walking

My dogs (trying to get in shape for hunting season, ironically!) for the

Record this is in residential area-not back in the woods, no

Bow hunting, no stealth occurring...



I heard a twig snap, and looked back... full on charge-a huge brownie,

Ears back, head low and motorin' full speed! Came with zero warning; no

Woof, no popping of the teeth, no standing up, nothing like what you

Think or see on TV! It charged from less than 20 yards and was on me in

About one-second! Totally surreal-I just started shooting in the general

Direction, and praise God that my second shot (or was it my third?)

Rolled him at 5 feet and he skidded to a stop 10 feet BEYOND where I was

Shooting from-I actually sidestepped him and fell over backwards on the

Last shot, and his momentum carried him to a stop past where I fired my

First shot!



It was a prehistoric old boar-no teeth, no fat-weighed between 900-1000

Lbs and took five men to DRAG it onto a tilt-bed trailer! Big bear-its

Paw measured out at about 9 1/2 footer!



Never-ever-thought "it" would happen to me! Its always some other smuck,

Right?





Well, no bull- I am still high on adrenaline, with my gut in a Knot.



Feels like I did 10000 crunches without stopping! Almost puked for

An hour after, had the burps and couldn't even stand up as the troopers

Conducted their investigation! Totally wiped me out-cant even put that

Feeling into words, by far the most emotion I have ever felt at once!



No doubt that God was with me, as I brought my Ruger . 454 Casull (and

Some "hot" 350 grain solids) just for the heck of it, and managed to

Draw and snap shoot (pointed, never even aimed!) from the hip! Total

Luck shot!



All I can say is Praise God for my safety and for choosing to leave the

Wife and kids at home on this walk! Got a charter tomorrow, so gonna TRY



Talk to ya soon, -Greg"



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[THoltz]

A fishing buddy of mine from Alaska said their standard offensive weapon is a 12 gauge shotgun alernately loaded with 00 buckshot, slug, 00 buckshot, slug, etc.



I would get a shotgun with a full stock for added stability.

 

[HHhuntitall]

Just some numbers for you to consider;

Federal factory 12ga 2 3/4" 1 1/8oz lead slug has 2630ftlbs of muzzle energy

Federal factory 12ga 2 3/4" saboted slug has 2490ftlbs of muzzle energy.

Handloaded at top pressure specifications for a carbine RIFLE, a . 44 Remington Magnum using a 240gr Sierra Jacketed Hollow Core bullet, produces 1604ftlbs energy at the muzzle.

As comparison, a . 458 Winchester Magnum(often used on dangerous game, including bears), using 300gr Sierra Hollowpoints, produces 4330ftlbs of muzzle energy.



Now, which would you rather have on your side? Not mentioning you could use 3" magnum loads in many 12ga, picking up a few hundred ft lbs of energy... ... although I wouldn't want to use those in a pistol grip, but if you HAD to smoke Smokey... .

 

[Midnite]

Muzzle energy isn't the whole picture. As I mentioned before, a typical factory lead slug is pure lead and very soft, and because of this you'd get very limited penetration on a big brown bear. Blackies are small enough that it would probably do okay.

A lot of you guys are really smitten with the 12 gauge, but you'll find very few guides in Alaska that carry them in bear country, even in thick timber. What they do carry are . 45-70 Marlin Guide Guns, and bolt guns in . 375 H&H, the various . 416s (. 416 Rigby, . 416 Taylor, etc. ) and . 458 Win Mag or . 458 Lott.

If you feel you absolutely have to carry a 12 gauge in brown bear country, do NOT use normal slugs--use sabot or Brenneke slugs. If you're going up against black bears, it probably doesn't matter that much.

Mike

 

[HHhuntitall]

Midnite,

That's something to be considered for sure. The penetration on a 12ga saboted slug would be almost a foot(12", yes) in difference versus the lead slug in ballistic gelatin, used to simulate soft tissue and demonstrate wound channel characteristics. It would be close to 6-15" difference between it and the 458 Win mag, depending on bullet selection, with the . 458 being much deeper. However, there is little difference in saboted bullet slugs in shotguns and a lever action 45. 70, performance wise at the muzzle, with factory ammunition. The penetration is key on larger bears, as they have massive bone structures and extremely tough hides for survival. Lead slugs, would, however, do a massive amount of damage... . Plated buckshot might be an alternative, as it would penetrate fairly well, and in a wider pattern. That would, I think, make a good chance for a fatal heart or brain penetration. I ,myself, prefer brain shots on bears, they don't get up. But then, my experience is limited to smaller, black bears, large cats, and cattle.

 

[MVenditti]

bears and mountain Lions

I choose the gatling gun from Movie Predator. That combined with crappin my pants should kill the appetite of any predator. lol

 

[BGlidewell]

This has been a good thread!



I remember reading at article in a hunting magazine years ago that stated that a 20ga was enough to kill anything on our continent.



12ga slugs would be my choice.

 

[HHhuntitall]

Venditti,



Reminds me of a joke... .

A new guy at the zoo goes down and is being shown around. He's doing pretty well until they come to the lion. He asks,"What do you do if he starts getting agressive?" The current zookeeper says,"That's a good question. If he starts coming at you, you yell as loud as you can and stand your ground. " The new guys asks,"Well, what if he keeps coming?" The currrent zookeeper replies,"Well, you hit him up side the head with your bucket as hard as you can. " The new guys asks,"Well, what if that doesn't stop him?" The current zookeeper says,"Well, you turn around and grab a handful of crap and sling it in his eyes and run like hell!" The new guy asks,"Well, what if there's not a pile of crap right there?" The zookeeper smiles and replies,"OH, don't worry, there will be!!"

 

[Ol'TrailDog]

My theory behind alternating buckshot and slugs in my 12ga bear gun is just plumb hoping the buckshot blinds the sucker, or perhaps even penetrates the brain via the eye socket if I'm lucky beyond my wildest imagination.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Muzzle energy isn't the whole picture. As I mentioned before, a typical factory lead slug is pure lead and very soft, and because of this you'd get very limited penetration on a big brown bear. Blackies are small enough that it would probably do okay.



A lot of you guys are really smitten with the 12 gauge, but you'll find very few guides in Alaska that carry them in bear country, even in thick timber. What they do carry are . 45-70 Marlin Guide Guns, and bolt guns in . 375 H&H, the various . 416s (. 416 Rigby, . 416 Taylor, etc. ) and . 458 Win Mag or . 458 Lott.



If you feel you absolutely have to carry a 12 gauge in brown bear country, do NOT use normal slugs--use sabot or Brenneke slugs. If you're going up against black bears, it probably doesn't matter that much.



Mike

Guide use - guns that are likely meant to be multi-purpose, might NOT be the choice of guys only looking for a specific use defense, say, out on camping/fishing trips in remote areas known to be bear country (sorta what THIS thread is about) - in those cases, something lethal to a BEAR is the primary consideration, not longer range hunting or game hunting use...

 

[MVenditti]

Good one.

 

[Grizzly]

Remember, anytime you go after a bear, especially a grizzly, with any handgun or rifle, always save the last bullet.

Just in case you don't get the bear.

 

[Midnite]

Guide use - guns that are likely meant to be multi-purpose, might NOT be the choice of guys only looking for a specific use defense, say, out on camping/fishing trips in remote areas known to be bear country (sorta what THIS thread is about) - in those cases, something lethal to a BEAR is the primary consideration, not longer range hunting or game hunting use...

I wouldn't be so quick to assume that Gary! The primary purpose of a hunting guide's weapon (and I'm thinking specifically of Alaskan hunting guides in brown bear country here, which is the same context in which I made the statement about Marlin Guide Guns) is to provide a finishing shot, or to provide solid protection in the event he and his client are surprised by a bear. Remember, the client may never have even been hunting before, or only hunted whitetail or antelope, and the guide is responsible for the client's safety (much like you with your family, right?)



I'm not saying you should go out and buy some shoulder-cannon appropriate for hunting cape buffalo in Africa, or something like that, but I think most people recommending the 12 gauge over a rifle don't understand the importance of penetration. Hunting guides certainly do, and I think it's very telling that they tend to choose short, handy, large bore rifles instead of shotguns.



BTW, I had completely missed that you moved from California to Oregon--when did that happen?



Mike

 

[Midnite]

Gary, I had to go back and reread your original question since this thread has drifted so much and you seemed primarily concerned with black bear. Even with black bear, penetration is a concern and I think buckshot of any type would be a poor choice. Ol'TrailDog has a very good point about buckshot--it will only be effective if it happens to hit the brain through a soft spot like the eye socket (and if you're that lucky, please buy me a lottery ticket). With a good slug--NOT the crappy pure lead ones, if you don't get a brain or spinal cord hit, you at least have a good chance of breaking bone and stopping the bear that way.



Your concern of distance accuracy with slugs I don't think is warranted in the self-defense role you describe--you won't be engaging anything at 100 yards, it'll be up close and personal.



Regardless, this thread is 5 years old, and you most likely got what you were looking for back then.



Mike

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Your concern of distance accuracy with slugs I don't think is warranted in the self-defense role you describe--you won't be engaging anything at 100 yards, it'll be up close and personal.



Regardless, this thread is 5 years old, and you most likely got what you were looking for back then.



Mike

YUP - I was primarily wondering how effective the Mossberg 500 police-type riot gun 12 ga. I have would be on a bear, since we RV camp in some pretty isolated wilderness area spots. Opinions vary as expected - but enough with some good experience to back them up, seem to think the 12 ga. will hold it's own against something as large and determined as a bear - at least as well as anything else I might want to carry for the job - and I already HAVE the Mossberg...







Good discussion guys - probably helped a few other guys as well! :-laf

 

[HHhuntitall]

I remember reading somewhere that the world record Polar bear was killed in 1960 by a native northern girl as the bear was trying to eat her pet seal and coming into her house. She killed him with a 22-250, I believe, or like a . 222 Rem. Shot placement is key!!

 

[MVenditti]

I was reading a comparison of velocities of different calibers such as m16 etc and the 22-250 was much more than the others. I know it is small caliber but the difference was amazing. I'm not a gun wiz but even something that small that travels at those speeds gotta hurt lol.

 

[crobertson1]

I have a question. Will a 9mm take care of an adult mountain lion?

 

[Midnite]

Sure, but it's nothing I'd choose to take with me into mountain lion country. If it's all you have, definitely carry it, but it's certainly not ideal.

Mike

 

[HHhuntitall]

I have a question. Will a 9mm take care of an adult mountain lion?

Sure it will, but I can't think of any situation where I'd deliberately go after one with just a 9mm. A small, young male, which is most likely what would attack a human, would probably die just fine by 9. Cats tend to run when injured by their prey, so just one good shot should get them away from you. I certainly wouldn't follow it into the brush with just a 9mm. I've killed many hogs, coyotes, and various other game with my 9mm, but I usually carry it for finishing game, not as a primary weapon to engage predators. But ALWAYS remember, this is a predator your using this pistol on, it has weapons, too, along with great speed, strength, and edurance.



Hopefully, you'll never know,

God bless,



Casey