2010 clutch help, will not disengage

[DonFitzwater]

That is adding injury to a big helping of insult! Wow, that's a bad time.

 

[RVTRKN]

Any updates?

 

[sag2]

Update from Friday, they stacked the aftermarket and DMF assemblies next to each other. The OEM setup measure 1/2" taller to the disc center and fingers than the aftermarket flywheel and pressure plate. The added distance to the plate would explain why the bearing retainer contacted the clutch plate when first assembled. Sounds like the customer is really ****** as the truck has been down a couple of months now.
Also found out the truck was purchased used at auction and the engine serial number matches the VIN of the truck. One theory was there were two possible engines for this MY, but looks like the truck has the OEM engine.
So there is more to the story but we just have not learned it yet. My advise was just replace the AM clutch with another and call it a day.

 

[NIsaacs]

Update from Friday, they stacked the aftermarket and DMF assemblies next to each other. The OEM setup measure 1/2" taller to the disc center and fingers than the aftermarket flywheel and pressure plate. The added distance to the plate would explain why the bearing retainer contacted the clutch plate when first assembled. Sounds like the customer is really ****** as the truck has been down a couple of months now.
Also found out the truck was purchased used at auction and the engine serial number matches the VIN of the truck. One theory was there were two possible engines for this MY, but looks like the truck has the OEM engine.
So there is more to the story but we just have not learned it yet. My advise was just replace the AM clutch with another and call it a day.

Any clutch, aftermarket or oem should fit the application (2010). If they buy an aftermarket clutch for this truck (2010) I don't think it will fit. The clutch that was removed might be anything. Since it was an auction buy it might have been wrecked (remember the broken transmission case). I would take some measurements of the engine adapter, maybe it was broken in the (hypothetical wreck) and changed out with who knows what.

Nick

 

[GCroyle]

Sag2,

Pic's would help, but here is the "master reference" dimension when you are comparing two systems. Don't compare heights at the component for component level, it must be measured as a system. So a G56 OE measurement wound need the adapter plate, then DMF, disc and cover ASSEMBLED. Measure from what would be the crank contact surface to the release bearing contact at the diaphragm. Now repeat the same installed stacked dimension for the other system, but if it is a direct bolt to crank SF system, you must eliminate the drive plate as its not used AND measure from the crank flange face of the SF, not the raised SF pilot flange.

Comparing the system stacked height of a complete DMF vs. a correctly designed solid system should yield almost identical system stack heights.

AFAIK, the G56 DMF has one supplier if bought from Dodge or any aftermarket supplier. They most likely have gone thru minor revisions, assumed like AA->AB->AC etc.

 

[sag2]

OK, stopped by the shop last Thursday. Truck was together but you can't see anything. the old case was sitting there so I suggested again they cut out the bottom of the bell housing so they can see in to see what's happening. Also took the new DMF and assembled, placed in press and depressed the fingers until the disk was free. Total travel of the fingers was less than 1/2". They didn't have time to install so I left. Called me Friday and said the disc releases and then locks up again. GCroyle, sound familiar? So my guess is the clutch was releasing with the transmission installed, but they were ignoring the "depress the pedal slowly and see if it releases before the pedal hits the floor" advise.
So then they say the replacement OEM slave "blew out" so they replaced it with an aftermarket assembly. So now the question is what is making the slave over stroke?

 

[RVTRKN]

We're you able to compare the old case to the new case, to see if there is a casting issue causing the main shaft to sit cocked eyed in the throw out bearing?

 

[GCroyle]

Sag2,

Forum diagnostics lacks the ability to be hands on, we're all relying on someones observations and maybe a pic or two.

The hydro's are really pretty straightforward, create hydraulic pressure and fluid displacement to control the position of the release bearing UNDER the DRIVERS control.

"So now the question is what is making the slave over stroke?"

What if you pushed a brake pedal with a caliper off of the rotor and no pads either, nothing to stop the piston, easy I think, it blows the piston out. How can it happen on an external clutch slave cylinder? The diaphragm spring pushes the bearing back, compresses the slv cyl fluid goes back to reservoir. But what if the bearing CAN'T go back to its starting point, fully engaged clutch and hydro's retracted as normal? Next release cycle it just pushes it out farther and this hyper extending continues to failure.

Suggest a true hands on inspection of:

Guide tube. Fine tooth comb time.
Fork. Part No. in lower left when installed on trans?
Pivot ball.
Bearing collar. Was it greased at install so it slides correctly?

This is not the time for assumptions, gotta start over.

"Called me Friday and said the disc releases and then locks up again. GCroyle, sound familiar?"

Overtravel, or SAC has over stroked and is out of operational range for disc thickness. Any witness marks under d-spring from contact to damper? Remember we've seen the bearing OD contact the d-spring previously in a pic. Overtravel, or SAC out of range.

Gary

 

[South Bend Clutch]

You cannot use after market hydraulics with the factory clutch in the G56 transmission or you will get over sroke. You can only use the 2005.5 to present hydraulics as they are designed to work with the DMF and self adjusting clutch.

Peter

 

[sag2]

OK, hope these help. When I got there they had the aftermarket master/slave installed. Question, why is the AM installed? Answer, cuz the OEM one "blew" out. Question, what does "blew" out mean? The slave push rod came out the end and the fluid leaked out.
So then they proceed to tell me how when they installed the OEM unit and depressed the pedal it would not break off the push rod plastic retainer. That sounds like it had air trapped. So the tech cuts off the plastic retainer and installs the slave. After a few pushes of the pedal the clutch does not release and fluid comes out of the bell housing.
The old and new transmission case measure the same. Measured from bearing retainer surface to bell housing, both the same. See photos of DMF to adapter housing, adapter housing thickness, clutch pedal (sorry for the dark interior shot) and clutch.
Still having a hard time with why the bearing retainer had to be cut 1/2" to clear the clutch plate. Looking at how it assembles it would appear the adapter plate is 1/2 thinner than needs to be.
So they did not have a new master/slave so ordered another new one. They are going to assemble it all, and depress the clutch slowly this time to see what happens. One thing we noted was when you step on the pedal to the floor, the push rod big end bottoms and contacts the master and tries to push it off to the side. Almost seems like the master sticks into the firewall too far.
I'm no clutch expert, but I have to assume the distance traveled by the slave at full pedal travel is calculated by the engineers to be the correct distance to release the clutch on a properly assembled clutch? Measured again and the TO bearing needs to move between 3/8" and 1/2" to release the clutch plate. Measuring the slave end of the fork, it needs to travel just over 1" to move the TO bearing 1/2".
Also even though it would appear the clutch has been over centered multiple times, when in the press it still releases correctly with 1/2' of movement of the fingers.

Thoughts?

 

[NIsaacs]

In the first picture of the bearing retainer to bell housing face, it's 2.750", the cross bar is touching the input shaft splines....on the second picture (last pic posted) the distance is 3.250" and the bar is about .500" from the splines...What's that about, did I miss something? Good pictures!

Nick

 

[RVTRKN]

The owner must have the patience of Job. I've seen the difference noted as well? If all the parts were ordered by the VIN, then it's the installation of the OEM parts. I had a shop convert my DMF to a SMF and remember the SBC master cylinder had to be adapted at the firewall, maybe there's a plate missing that the OEM MC bolts up to.

 

[GCroyle]

Sag2,

This pic clearly shows fork to cover contact at SOME time in its life. This would have made noise and likely pedal pulsation thumpathumpathumpa.

Can we get a couple of shots of the release bearing and fork please? Any chance to put this fork side by side with a new or known good fork and snap pics?

Nick's got a good question, I didn't see an explanation for it.

I can get my hands on a used drive plate to measure crank to DMF mounting standoff if you need it, also a pic of the drive plate being used, both sides.

Really need to see the bearing collar bore and VERIFY it slides free and easy installed with the fork in the correct orientation.

Hydro's look like stock G56, MC attached with clip and part number on line.

Still pondering.

 

[mwilson]

thumpathumpathumpa.......

Have you been studying how to speak Mainer???? I'm getting a little weepy 'cause I'm so proud of you for tackling a foreign language ......

 

[sag2]

Sorry, didn't grab a photo of the fork or TO bearing. It does slide free and is properly orientated. One tech did say they tried to turn it around but had to mouse the TO to the arm to get it to work. It had an aftermarket arm, but now has the OEM arm and bearing.

 

[sag2]

They attempted to install a new OEM master/slave. In this photo the shipping/retainer plastic clip is still on it. Found a dealer with an adapter plate in stock, will call in the morning and have them measure the thickness. It has to be it, nothing else makes any sense.

 

[NIsaacs]

In the picture of the slave cylinder, it that as far as it will go by slight hand pressure? Do you have any free play in the fork? If it is pushed all the way back up against the bell housing by contact of the through out bearing and pressure plate fingers, you still have a mis-match depth issue. Since the slave will self center, that is the only thing I can think of that would cause an over stroke.

Nick

 

[GCroyle]

Sag2,

Had a new drive plate, measured from crank contact surface to DMF mounting surface where the 8 bolt holes are, 11.9mm.

I have not measured the new fork to slave cylinder mounting face setback dimension. But the picture looks absolutely correct for the initial slave cylinder installation position.
You have to push the slave cylinder in or pull it in SLIGHTLY with the nuts. This establishes the release bearing preload that comes from the spring in the slave cylinder.

If you ever install an external slave cylinder and DO NOT have to push it in, I'd be concerned and need to know the application to comment further.

This SAC, has anyone reset it after all of these installation attempts and overstroking? I've lost count, need a spread sheet.

Gary

 

[GCroyle]

thumpathumpathumpa.......

Have you been studying how to speak Mainer???? I'm getting a little weepy 'cause I'm so proud of you for tackling a foreign language ......

Mike,

Not sure if that a compliment or insult to my confused Midwest, Southwest, Mid-South and now Southern residences.

You'ns, Ya'll, Hey have a nice day.

Gary

Born a Yankee, working on Redneck merit badges.

 

[GCroyle]

Wth!

Sag2,

This one caught me off guard, happened this afternoon on a tech call.

G56, our non self adjusting clutch, AND new sourced online what I really believe to have been the OEM hydraulic system, OK what's the issue?

Installer/Owner/Driver states the clutch pedal comes almost all the way up before the clutch engages. Huh, almost all the way up before engagement? OK folks this is a new one on me, nothing is adding up so far. The most common, hydraulic clutch statement is it starts to pull right off of the floorboard, it's not completely releasing

Does the clutch slip? NO
Shifts OK, Yes
Any other symptoms? Yeah, the clutch bearing is smelling, makes a metal burning smell.
What? Not the stinking smell of burned facings, Nope.
Does the bearing make noise? Not reported.

OK, is this one on Candid Camera? It ain't adding up.

I have one suggestion and I'm not sure what triggered the suggestion but I suggested to remove the slave cylinder and by hand fully compress the slave cylinder just to check the hydros to make sure the tappet valve in the MC was open and allowing fluid to freely flow back into the MC and reservoir.OK, I'll try it, mostly just to rule out any problem with the hydro's.

The afternoon continues to unfold.

Hi Gary, remember me with the G56 and high pedal engagement? Can't forget you, yes.

Well, I removed the SLV CYL and compressed it like you suggested. Frankly don't remember if he reported any sensation while compressing SLV CYL. I reinstalled it, pushed the clutch pedal and NOW, ALL IS NORMAL! Pedal position relative to clutch action, as expected, no more high engagement. What happened?

Theory: A foreign object was lodged right at the fluid supply and return port and wasn't allowing the system to return the fluid somehow but it managed to keep pushing the bearing out farther and farther. What about the smell? That's still a puzzle but if the overtravel caused the diaphragm spring to contact the top of the disc's retainer plate, that metal to metal might have made the smell, but the jury is still out on that one.

My next suggestion, get a turkey baster and suck out ALL of the fluid in the reservoir, look for foreign object, clean reservoir and top off. Also, advised that any white grease found in the fluid is assembly grease and not a fragment of any internal component like a seal.

Can I prove all aspects of this story, well I didn't service the truck and its pretty seldom that tech support gets return calls like this one. Most shop techs just move on.

In your case, it might take a spread sheet to keep track of all of the installs and situations but the pics you have provided show release stroke overtravel at some time and the tech call absolutely described a situation that matches with over travel.

Need popcorn.

Gary