2010 clutch help, will not disengage

[Bob V]

If the master Cylinder is not fully returning so the cup is not past the fill port, and the slave was installed extended it COULD cause a over extend. the slave should move in somewhat easily with the master mounted in the truck.

 

[sag2]

And now the rest of the story.

Actually Peter nailed it way back in post 10. I asked them back then to verify there was no spacer. I stopped by today again on a test drive and the truck was still on the hoist. We were comparing again and my partner got on the phone with one of Peters guys who again pointed out that some if not all AM clutch set up's to replace DMF require a spacer on the back of the crank. As we were talking the tech said "but if there was a 1/2 spacer the starter would not engage the ring gear. Damn, another small clue missed! I look at the ring gear and the teeth are already starting to wear on the leading edge where the starter drive was only making about 3/16 contact with the tooth. That's when I said pull it ALL the way apart so I can see for myself. Sure enough, the spacer I asked about was there. The tech said "that had to be OEM as look how nice it fits." So that also explains the 1/2 having to be cut off the bearing retainer and the over stroke of the slave cylinder. Thanks to Peter and Gary for all their help on this one. They really gave some good input and pointed out everything we needed to know. It's great to have vendors here that are always willing to help.
In defense of the technician, this was the first DMF clutch he had done, and I have to agree, the spacer fit nicely to the flex plate, and looked like it should be there.
The flex plate bolts they had were too long so we could not bolt it all up to confirm, but it appears to be the problem. I'm sure the customer will be glad to have his truck back, and the dealer has a lot of duplicate new parts lying on the bench.
If you have not seen this part before, it is about 4" in diameter, and the flywheel bolts go through the eight holes. It pilots on the crank, and the flywheel pilots on the spacer.

 

[RVTRKN]

Sag2,

Popcorn is getting cold, any updates?

Gary

Hey, just wanted to let everyone know there's fresh popcorn in the break room. :-laf

Even though Sag2 is defending the techs that did this job, with the literature that is available to them, as well as exploded part views to compare with, I'm surprised they missed that. The next bonehead move was to allow an inexperienced tech (on that setup) work on it after complications. The service manager should have stepped in after the 2nd attempt failed, and brought in a tech that has worked on DMF's. It's not like they don't fail and never need replacement. I blame the Service Manager on this one.

Now what's going to happen when it fails in 35K miles like they can do. That is our delima who owns a G56. I'll be converting to a NV5600 as soon as my G56 fails.

 

[RustyJC]

Well, darn. This is like the end of a soap opera. What am I going to watch/read now??? #@$%! :-laf

Rusty

 

[mwilson]

It has been addicting for sure, kinda' like my fondness for Shonda Rhimes Thursday night ABC shows......

Something simple can cause a whole lot of trouble for sure.

There has been some real class and experience shown on this thread. I enjoyed learning about this.

 

[GCroyle]

Sag2,

I guess I'll start by saying, I'm darn near speechless.

Really glad someone challenged it from the starting point, the crank and putting things in order.

If you guys could only listen in on clutch tech calls I think you'd soon realize that anything that can be done wrong will be done wrong sooner or later and as we try to unravel the mess with a crappy cordless phone and an impact gun rattl'n away in the background and the "tech" or DIY'er assuring us, oh yeah I know its right because-------fill in the blank with whatever.

I'm still trying to figure out what bolts they used to I guess convert back to a DMF based system cause any solid FW system bolts would most likely have been too long.

Paul Harvey just waved his hand and walked away.

Gary

 

[GCroyle]

He called me today and confirmed the flex plate can only go on the way it is installed, and no shim between it and the crank as Peter suggested there could be..

And Sag2 specifically asked them to check for this exact possible as Peter pointed out, and they didn't find it. Wow.

I don't think the forum could hold all the horror stories that supplier tech lines try to deal with.

 

[mwilson]

Maybe the word "Shim" instead of "Spacer" threw the tech off of the rails. He possibly envisioned something in the .020 range instead of a 1/2" chunk of iron.

I know that we are constantly battling with terminology when dealing with both customers and techs. One of the common issues is the use of the word "compressor"...

Old school parts men will look up the air compressor first instead of asking "Do you want an air compressor OR an A/C compressor?"....as A/C was a rarity on trucks up here back in the day.

 

[RVTRKN]

I've been on the other end when I changed out a timing chain on a 318 back in 92, I could not get the damn thing to run right and tore the front end down three times to check and triple check my timing marks. When I took it to a shop for diagnoses, and I got ARE YOU SURE YOU DIDNT DO SOMETHING WRONG? The weirdest thing happened when they started the engine, it ran perfect! It turned out the crude early computer in the air filter had a bad connection. They found it in 10min, the problem started in a minor rough running engine, classic worn timing chain and was worn when removed. It never ran better after that, we bought it with 90K miles on it.

 

[GCroyle]

If the master Cylinder is not fully returning so the cup is not past the fill port,

Bob,

One minor clarification, these master cylinders don't have a cup / fill port relationship like some clutch master cylinders or brake master cylinders. This one uses an internal "tappet valve" that is open with the pedal up and closes at about 1/8" push rod stroke. But the same net result may be possible, just a design variation.

Your observation is a good one to keep in the memory tool box.

Gary

 

[GCroyle]

I know that we are constantly battling with terminology when dealing with both customers and techs. .

Mike,

Ours would be is the clutch engaged or released?

SAE defines Engaged as pedal up, Released as pedal down.

I've used 3 pints of DOT 3, I know its bled. Next caller please.

Gary

 

[sag2]

I think what may have thrown them off was item 22. It correctly shows on the clutch side of the flex plate, and we use the same type of part on many gas engines. I think it comes down to attention to detail, and not being familiar with DMF and aftermarket parts. The dealership does not see many diesels and this was the first DMF they had done. It still does not explain not following pretty simple instructions like "are there any spacers on the end of the crank?"


View attachment parts_graphics_itemlist4519654208913998099.pdf

 

[sag2]

Sag2,




I'm still trying to figure out what bolts they used to I guess convert back to a DMF based system cause any solid FW system bolts would most likely have been too long.


Gary

The tech said he ordered OEM bolts that were supposed to be in there when I was there yesterday, but they were too long for just the flex plate when we tried to assemble it correctly. The SM also said he saw the bolts charged out on the RO. The reason the long bolts worked was they had it all assembled with the spacer. I'm going to guess that there are eight new (shorter) flex plate bolts in a tool box, unused because they were too short to assemble it they way they did!

 

[GCroyle]

Sag2,

Item 22 is a master washer or RING, CLAMPING on the package we have. Just for grins I checked and its OD is greater than the stamped pilot cup on the engine side of the drive plate, so I's say impossible to install on wrong side. Oh wait, impossible is an incorrect term.

Also here are the NV5600 FW bolt and G56 drive plate bolts side by side with underhead measurements.

All in all an interesting set of circumstances.

Gary

 

[sag2]

You won't believe this, now the starter drive will not engage the ring gear. The starter motor just spins. He shimmed the starter out three washers and the drive engages now. This truck just does not want to get fixed!

 

[GCroyle]

Sag2,

Not sure what to say, but if they would have told you they put washers on the starter to move it out, this would have been over a long time ago. Also is it time for the shop boss to review his job competency level? Spacing a starter with washers?

Happy Saturday.

 

[jhenderson]

I'm sure it's for test fit purposes only. This should serve as a reminder when dealing with repair facilities. When you don't know what the Guy before you has done it can be an exhausting experience. I've seen some very strange things in my buddies shop. Just yesterday a guy dropped off a set of SBC heads with a couple of rocker studs pulled. Steve started asking questions but the fellow didn't have answers because he bought the motor torn down. Digging into things he found the obvious, coil bind because of too much cam lift. But that's not all. The hydraulic lifters were all collapsed. Not really! Somebody disassembled them and removed the springs and plungers, apparently to try to convert the to sold lifters. Some things you just can't make up.

 

[RVTRKN]

As I have posted, I believe the service manager is at fault here, and his competency should be questioned. The tech with no experience doing the job was a poor choice, but as noted by Sag2 it's a small dealership. The Service manager should have farmed the job out to a dealership that has an experienced shop that works with these trucks. Me being a DIY, would be understandable that I could get lost in this conversion back to OEM, but a dealership has no excuse. This dealership should not charge this customer one dime, after all the time that has elapsed on this repair with the loss of the vehicle to the customer. I sure hope we don't see a six page post on the inability of this shop figuring out how to install a starter.

 

[GCroyle]

Currently on a VW TDI forum there is a thread about a TDI owner buying a solid FW conversion and having a dealership install the parts for him. In my opinion a recipe for disaster akin to taking your steak to a restaurant and then having them cook it. The parts were furnished by a VW version of a Geno's.

The shop stated they were having problems and the cover bolt circle doesn't match the flywheel. No problem we drilled the cover bolts holes until they fit. More issues ensued after that, mater is unresolved. But instead of contacting the owner who furnished the clutch and seeking tech support, they took it upon themselves to drill the cover to force a fit.

Incompetent hogwash.

 

[TFucili]

At our shop we turn down "basket cases" and machines that "three of my buddies, and two other shops" have taken a swing at already on a daily basis. You almost always end up with a black-eye.