2016 3500 Aisin poor throttle response

[Ram4Sam]

I think Greg owes us all an apology........:-laf

Sam

 

[SnoKing]

I couldn't agree more, maybe at that one magical computer controlled moment it will actually produce that power? Unleash it. If the trans can't handle it build one that can. Increasing the power numbers only to have it neutered by torque management isn't an honest approach.

Then you need a heavier driveline, U-joints, differential, wheels on and on. Other than ego's there is little reason to go beyond where we currently at. SNOKING

 

[KCJackson1]

Then you need a heavier driveline, U-joints, differential, wheels on and on. Other than ego's there is little reason to go beyond where we currently at. SNOKING

Which would apply to all the diesel trucks and the costs can be spread over scale. Ford and GM don't offer multiple outputs like Ram does, and only have to put together one set of drivetrain equipment - the only differences are axle ratios and driveshaft length for the wheelbase changes. If Ram contracts Cummins for a 425/925 B6.7 for all diesel pickups, there'd be the one set of transmission, transfer case, differentials, etc. I understand there's still a market for the handshaker, but unless FCA is willing to buy Eaton/Fuller units, the G56 will continue to result in a serious chokehold on engine power.

 

[Newsa]

I understand there's still a market for the handshaker, but unless FCA is willing to buy Eaton/Fuller units, the G56 will continue to result in a serious chokehold on engine power.

Not experiencing a need for any more torque here. But I've only towed up to 16,000 lbs (gooseneck). Torque Management in the manual trannies seems to only be present up to 35 mph plus or minus a few mph. That's what it seems anyway. No dead pedal, either. Just gradually increasing available torque as the speed increases.

The 2500's don't need more torque (heftier transmission) because of their reduced tow rating. The truck does everything I need it to and more.

 

[kthaxton]

I wish we had somebody here that knew definitively, how and when torque management is active. There seems to be a lot of assumptions and some seem rather illogical.

My assumption:
Torque is limited at start from stop (initial acceleration) and......
between shifts.

Some say (assume? know for fact?) that full torque is only utilized (as needed) in 4th - 6th gears. This seems logical as in the lower gears, you don't need it as much.

In the end, however it works, I am fine with it. Maybe its because I still feel spoiled because my 2015 is my first Diesel and coming from a gas 1/2 ton, I am still in awe at how well my "low" output Cummins handles a load. While I have mild dead pedal (and I'm somewhat used to it), it is still an amazing truck......plus.....do we even KNOW that dead pedal is the result of TM? Perhaps it is the sum of several micro-second delays in the electronics from a drive-by-wire throttle system, fueling, etc.?

To those that feel like it is a waste to have all that torque and "not be able to use it", I think are being a bit dramatic. Even if it is utilized as I described above......the upper gears is where you really need it anyway since you don't have as much gear reduction working for you.

 

[KCJackson1]

To those that feel like it is a waste to have all that torque and "not be able to use it", I think are being a bit dramatic. Even if it is utilized as I described above......the upper gears is where you really need it anyway since you don't have as much gear reduction working for you.

Ideally, the point of extra transmission gears is to allow taller (lower numerically) axle ratios to go with the extra power. However, there is still a very strong mentality of "I need 4.10/4.30/4.56 to get the job done". True when you only had 3 or 4 transmission gears, but as you note, the 6 speeds have enough multiplication in the early ranges that a 4.10 is overkill for virtually any job a pickup is safely capable of handling. Because drivers are used to the "pull" they felt with weaker engines and 4.10s and many still want it, TM is necessary or the truck would wind itself around its own driveshaft when you romp on the go pedal the way you did with older rigs.

If you had a 12-valve with 4.10s and trade for a new 900/Aisin, why would you still need that 4.10 ratio? You have more than double the torque just from the engine, and you have both an extra lower gear and an extra overdrive gear. That's part of FCA's mindset for only offering the 3.42 in SRW trucks.

Here's the math of it...
12-valve/47RE - 420 lb-ft x 2.45 first gear x 4.10 axle = 4218.9
ISB 800/68RFE - 800 lb-ft x 3.23 first gear x 3.42 axle = 8837.28 <--double the theoretical pulling power
ISB 900/Aisin - 900 lb-ft x 3.75 first gear x 3.42 axle = 11542.5 <--almost triple the theoretical pulling power
Unless you're dragging the entire neighborhood around every day, this is plenty. But the "4.10 fans" are still out there and TM has to keep them from destroying the truck (and themselves). Most people aren't willing to re-learn how to drive when the new truck is far more capable than the one they had. TM will likely continue to be used to force that change in habit.

 

[GrantP]

Then you need a heavier driveline, U-joints, differential, wheels on and on. Other than ego's there is little reason to go beyond where we currently at. SNOKING

That is essentially my point, beef up the rest of the drivetrain to handle the advertised power in all conditions. I agree that the power ratings don't really need to go up, just let us use what we have whenever we want it.

 

[SnoKing]

That is essentially my point, beef up the rest of the drivetrain to handle the advertised power in all conditions. I agree that the power ratings don't really need to go up, just let us use what we have whenever we want it.

My 2001.5 was around 325/650 at rear wheels, which is similar to what my 2015 has if you convert to crank numbers for the 2001.5. Towing, no comparison and the 2015 weighs a 1000 lbs more, and the old one had 4.10 gears. If it would have had the Aisin I have today and the 3.42 and some tuning to bring the power in at lower RPM it would most likely perform similarly.

 

[RustyJC]

The truck in my signature is turning about 1750 RPM at 65 MPH - my normal towing speed - in 6th gear with a 4.10 axle ratio. That works out very well with our 19,000 lb GVWR 5th wheel. Plus I have the advantage of LOW 1st and 2nd gear overall gearing for starting from rest on steep slopes. The 4.10s work just fine for me, thanks.

Rusty

 

[SnoKing]

The truck in my signature is turning about 1750 RPM at 65 MPH - my normal towing speed - in 6th gear with a 4.10 axle ratio. That works out very well with our 19,000 lb GVWR 5th wheel. Plus I have the advantage of LOW 1st and 2nd gear overall gearing for starting from rest on steep slopes. The 4.10s work just fine for me, thanks.

Rusty

Want to come and run bobtail from Phoenix to Palm Springs (300 miles) at 75-85 MPH with traffic????

 

[RustyJC]

Want to come and run bobtail from Phoenix to Palm Springs (300 miles) at 75-85 MPH with traffic????

It has no problem cruising 75 to 85 MPH. In fact, when I bought it in Alabama, I had a 500+ mile run back to the Houston area on I-10 at 75+ MPH. The double overdrive 6-speed automatics (68RFE and Aisin AS69RC) make 4.10s a very livable axle ratio for both running loaded and empty. My previous truck was a 2011 Ram 3500 duallie with 68RFE and 4.10s, so I knew what to expect and searched out a truck with 4.10s when I purchased this one.

Rusty

 

[kthaxton]

That is essentially my point, beef up the rest of the drivetrain to handle the advertised power in all conditions. I agree that the power ratings don't really need to go up, just let us use what we have whenever we want it.

These drivetrains are already very stout, it would be impractical to add even more weight and expense.

When exactly do you "need" more torque when you aren't getting it? Do you "need" to beat other vehicles off the line when you are towing a trailer?

I get my torque when I need it.....climbing a grade, with a load, in 5th or 6th gear, allowing me to maintain or even exceed the speed limit. Sometimes passing lesser passenger vehicles. This still makes me giddy.

 

[Cummins12V98]

Took a trip two days ago from Palm Springs to Yuma and back. Drove the speed limit with cruise on, varied from 65-70. Truck scales at about 10K. Per EVIC 16.4 so reality could be as low as 16. Can't complain my 77 GMC Shorty 1/2 ton 2wd would be dead on 16 at about 1/2 the weight.

 

[2016HO]

I know what you mean it sucks pulling on a on ramp and having no throttle response. I got a call from my servicing dealer today just hours after I traded my ram off for a super duty that they now want it next week because the engineers of my Aisin truck want to evaluate the over whelming complaints related to these trucks. So I told them they would have to go to the Ford dealer they didn't seem to like that. I told them that I have bought 6 brand new Rams in the last 15 years and when I brought in my 16 and they had it for almost 2 weeks just trying to figure out the problem and they wouldn't even give me a loaner truck not even a used one, so why should I give it back to them they didn't know what to say or even try to make amends. I'm totally done with Ram in the next few years I will be trading off my remaining 4 Rams for either Fords or Chevys which is a shame since I always did have good luck with the Cummins and still think its the best diesel.Just plain poor customer relations.

 

[SnoKing]

" I always did have good luck with the Cummins and still think its the best diesel"

#ad

 

[Newsa]

The question remains about this problem. Is it Ram or Aisin or a third party outsourcer who has quality control problems. Some experience the problem. Others don't. And the ones who do experience it, experience it to different degrees.

Or maybe if you have the power take off or snow group, it comes with programming that doesn't have the problem? (or another feature that has different programming)



Snoking, you already admitted that your truck would be in the boneyard if it experienced a 3-5 second delay. 2016HO just took your advise. It' Ram's fault for not correcting a situation where the transmission doesn't put the power to the road. Cummins power does no good if it's not put to the road in a timely manner.

 

[GrantP]

If you had a 12-valve with 4.10s and trade for a new 900/Aisin, why would you still need that 4.10 ratio? You have more than double the torque just from the engine, and you have both an extra lower gear and an extra overdrive gear. That's part of FCA's mindset for only offering the 3.42 in SRW trucks.

Here's the math of it...
12-valve/47RE - 420 lb-ft x 2.45 first gear x 4.10 axle = 4218.9
ISB 800/68RFE - 800 lb-ft x 3.23 first gear x 3.42 axle = 8837.28 <--double the theoretical pulling power
ISB 900/Aisin - 900 lb-ft x 3.75 first gear x 3.42 axle = 11542.5 <--almost triple the theoretical pulling power
Unless you're dragging the entire neighborhood around every day, this is plenty. But the "4.10 fans" are still out there and TM has to keep them from destroying the truck (and themselves). Most people aren't willing to re-learn how to drive when the new truck is far more capable than the one they had. TM will likely continue to be used to force that change in habit.

Put me in the 4.10 fan club, I want the option because I know any truck I own is going to have larger than stock tires.

 

[kthaxton]

It' Ram's fault for not correcting a situation where the transmission doesn't put the power to the road. Cummins power does no good if it's not put to the road in a timely manner.

If the transmission was simply not "putting power to the road" we'd hear the engine revving, with no movement. The engine has the delay, not the trans.

Soooo many positive and negative engine performance characteristics falsely attributed to the Aisin transmission on this site......sigh.......

 

[TCDiesel]

Go rent a Penske or Ryder truck with the 6.7 or any engine for that matter W Allison or Eaton ATs, same pedal delay. If you want fast Buy Ford D-max, be prepare for years of Blue Oval and GM Bondage , A water pump on the 6.7 is $250.00 OE and 20 minutes to change on Single ALT, Both Blue and GM 2-6Hrs and $450.00, those little fuel connections on the Blue and GM you think are $20/30 Will be $50/150. Aisin,Allison, and Blue are about the same $, the 68RFE parts are less then the 3.

 

[brillmtb]

Oh great, I just ordered my 2017 with the Aisin after all the other threads about how great the transmission is. I noticed on my 03 that with a smarty junior that the throttle response was much improved. Is this issue above something that can be corrected by programming or cant you do this aftermarket with the newer trucks