Guns, Bows, Shooting Sports, and Hunting 338/378 reloads

[Joseph Donnelly]

I still have a Mark X Mauser action modified for a 338/378 and also a BBK action, but on to the topic; I discussed load development for the . 338/378 in Handloader #141, Sep-Oct 1989. Back then, the 300 Barnes copper jacketed bullet was about all that was available in that weight. Here are some max loads and velocities in a 26. 8" barrel (T powders are Thunderbird military surplus):

T5020, 124 gr, 2998 fps

T5070, 114, 2857

IMR7828, 96, 2805

H-870, 111, 2849

H-5010, 110, 2866

 

[HHhuntitall]

HH, No Research:{, Just an idea I have, from passed on tradition and adding up results of my limited shooting experience(compared to yours).

The Sierra Game King is one of the most accurate lead tipped bullets available. Consistency is the problem here even with perfectly formed ogives, out of the box! Otherwise we would be shooting matches with them!

Lead cored . 22's and 6mm's can be blown up before they hit the target. Ive seen that with 105 Gr. Speers fired from a 6X284. Those that entered the target at 300 yards were surrounded by a halo of lead that penetrated the target leaving significant lead smears around the holes.

I know this is VERY SUBJECTIVE! JMO. Temperature of the projectile in flight would determine the existence of a liquidus/solidus condition on the surface of the exposed tip. Allowing for centifugal force( to counter act centripetal force) and air flow to erode the tip. Again this is just my Un-SWAG:-laf!

Maybe WE should do a research project!!!!!Oo.

GregH

GHarm, it would seem logical, yes, but in the videos and research I have read, the bullet doesn't develope the amount of heat needed to melt the lead and burn off the tip... . the halo around the bullet entering the target was an indicator of the bullet seperating. The copper jacket was spinning off, due to overstabilization of a fast twist in a fast caliber. Calculate the RPMs of that 6mm bullet!!! What was the twist? 1:9? At 3400 fps, that's 377. 77 RPS, times 60 secs, so 22,666. 66RPM, if I calculated that right..... That doesn't sound that bad to me, but if you go to 3600fps... that's 24,000RPM... . that's when the bullets start to come apart if the jackets aren't very good..... I can see the lead tip seperating at that RPM.....



What kind of experiement did you have in mind?

I still have a Mark X Mauser action modified for a 338/378 and also a BBK action, but on to the topic; I discussed load development for the . 338/378 in Handloader #141, Sep-Oct 1989. Back then, the 300 Barnes copper jacketed bullet was about all that was available in that weight. Here are some max loads and velocities in a 26. 8" barrel (T powders are Thunderbird military surplus):

T5020, 124 gr, 2998 fps

T5070, 114, 2857

IMR7828, 96, 2805

H-870, 111, 2849

H-5010, 110, 2866

WOW, 5020... . haven't seen any of that in a few years!! I've still got some stashes of 5010..... Widener's still has quite a bit of it, the last time I talked to them..... I'm surprised you didn't ever break 3,000FPS..... Were those bullets Flat based, thick jacketed?

 

[GHarman]

HH!

My 6mm-284 barrel was a 1-10" twist at 30" long.

I still got fair groups out of that 105 Gr. Speer bullet! For a hunting style bullet? Quarter size at 300 yards. However, each hole and the group in general was surrounded by a halo of lead smears and holes. I did not chronograph the load, this was way back in the early 1970's. Oehler had not offered a reasonably cheap chronograph, yet!



YES, it was a screamin' zonker! I could tell you stories about "ground zero" in a "P" Dog town and 80 Gr. Remington Power loct hollow points loaded in front of huge quantities of H-4831:-lafOo.

Bullet RPM; MV X Twist (expressed as 12/X {with x being the actual twist rate}) X 60 = Revolutions per Minute.

Example; 3000 FPS x 12/10 X 60sec = 216,000 RPM.

My estimated velocity for the 105 Gr. 6mm bullet was 3400 FPS(it could have been 3500 FPS at a stretch? but just a guess!)

3400 FPS X 12/10 X 60sec = 244,800 RPM.

What do ya think?

Hmmm? An experiment to prove or disprove my humble theoryOo. !

GregH

 

[HHhuntitall]

DUH!! I knew that didn't look right when I figured it in my head... . the numbers were too low!! I just couldn't mentally picture the formulae... . I was using the reverse order, dividing the FPS... . anyway... .



Got a high speed camera? All these digital cameras floating around, any of them got a super fast lense? Anyone?

 

[GHarman]

HHhuntitall!

No Duh! I couldnt handle the load your carrying You are entitled to a whoops, once in a while!

Just don't let it happen again



My camera is not adjustable for lens speed. Other than about 6 preset "idiot light" positions. It would require a fairly sophisticated trigger screen and very high speed camera.

My thoughts on this erosion of the exposed lead tip in flight, are based on these observations and conclusions;

The bullet holes in the target were round. Which means the bullets were stable, in flight, through the target. A completely molten core would preclude rotation. IMHO, a fluid core would not rotate at the same rpm as the jacket A molten core would act as a damper and create an unstable condition. The bullet would also, with a high degree of probability, never reach the target with a molten core.

Now picture 3 round holes with a halo of lead spatter and small ragged holes around the bullet holes.

I dont know if it could be duplicated today. I dont have a spare 6mm Barrel to burn out. However, I do have a 6mm/284 Die set with a 25/284 step sizing die:-laf!

What do you think of this?

GregH

 

[HHhuntitall]

Well, lack of sleep and I usually do Ok as partners, but I do get stupid the longer the week gets... . Oh, sorry, stupid's not a nice word... . Un-intelligent, then... . I'll try hard not to let that happen again, but.....



As for a . 243Win chambered barrel, I have a decent one I had to pull as it wasn't lapped very good, and was pretty tight. It tore the jackets off the 105 Bergers pretty bad... . but!! I think you'd find the splatter around the hole would be the lead tip and part of the front jacket. It started to mushroom, slinging the lead out, albiet it wasn't molten, I don't think... . I've seen a lot of them do it in the brush. Dad and I experimented with a lot of different calibers and bullets shooting through shinery(shrub oak) at targets... . the Barnes were the best, hands down, made at that time. I also used some Speer FMJs that worked pretty good, but they sucked on deer... . they just punched a round hole!! The Nosler Partitions came in a close second, as the partition base would push through the brush like a super-sonic mini-howitzer!!



As a thought, how hot is lead when it melts? Would that make paper smoke and smolder like welding slag? I don't think it was molten when it hit... .



Molten cored bullets do exist. I've seen some, and thank God I was behind the breach when they went downrange... . They were cored with stabalized Mercury(whatever that is... . ), and were pretty lethal on watermelons and crows!! The theory was that if a person got shot with it, even if they survived the initial bullet damage, they wouldn't survive the mercury poisoning... . The difficulty in making prohibits them being made in mass quantities and they certainly aren't readily available to the civilian market. They have no game hunting applications, obviously. I believe they were made in intermediate calibers such as . 308 and . 355, and use an overly thick copper jacket, reverse swaged and fully copper coated on the base... . Also, they were thought to not over penetrate, such as in a crowd, reducing collateral damage... ... I have never fired any, though. Apparently, my security clearance is limited... . OH, some of those were sub-sonic, as well... ... very quiet... . and people wonder why I'm paranoid!!!



I'll have to look, but I think I also have a Lilja barrel that's a 9 ring barrel in . 243... . It shot good, but never would compete at 600yds... . :{

 

[GHarman]

HH!

Pure lead melts at 621. 5*F. Paper smolders at a lower temperature!

Hmmm, a LILJA that isnt competitive? Can you send it back and get a replacement?

GregH

 

[BIGNASTY]

HH and Greg



What the best way to get a NEW BARRELL TO SHOOT. Break in procedures Its a LiLja SS

 

[GHarman]

Hey BIG!
There are various techniques. Heres a contrarian view that is especially understandable considering the big bore cannern you have!
How to Break-in a Barrel

Lilja does not prescribe a break-in procedure.

Kreiger, however provides this information;
Break-In & Cleaning

What ever you decide to do? Fire one and clean several times and move to fire a group of 3 and clean? Would reduce excessive barrel wear, however you should see a settling down after 25-50 rounds, maybe less?
The cleaning technique is the most important process.
I would not use any bronze brushes in your new barrel. Use the plastic bore brushes and your best bore cleaner. Let the chemical do the work. Use a bore guide and clean from the breach to the muzzle. Do not stroke the brush in the barrel! Push it out of the muzzle, remove the brush and withdraw the rod. Dont forget to remove the brake and clean it after your shooting session. Make sure you use some antisieze or moly grease on the muzzle brake threads to prevent gauling during removal for cleaning and reinstallation.
Make sure you remove all bore solution/oil before shooting or storing. An ammonia based solution can ruin a stainless Steel barrel if left in the barrel very long or used when the barrel is hot. The heat will accelerate the corrosivity of the ammonia. If you use automotive brake cleaner to clean your brushes and gun parts? Make sure it is the non chlorinated type. Chlorine is also hazardous to Stainless Steel. I like to use Kano Kroil in addition to a more aggressive bore cleaner. It will help remove carbon as well as dilute bore cleaner residue, making it easier to remove.
Dont use an aluminum cleaning rod! Use a one piece, high quality coated or Graphite rod. (some folks have ideas about bore rods that are as devisive as the argument about what is the best all around big game cartridge:-laf)
Put a small smear of moly grease on your locking lugs, periodically. Not to much!
Have fun with your new Cannern!
Be careful!
GregH
I'm sure HHhuntitall can add more to this list with his own recommendations!
Remember; A clean dry bore with a light coat of oil before storing. Remove the oil before shooting.

IMPORTANT! IMHO! Break down your old loads! Dont shoot them in the new chamber. They could be to hot? Check your pulled down brass in the new chamber. Make sure they fit. If not? FL. resize and try again!
If they do? Start at the bottom of the loading data you have been using. Shoot one and Check for pressure signs. Clean and move up the load if pressure signs are normal!

 

[GHarman]

BIG! Make a bullet seating depth tool. Take a fired case and resize it. Use a jewelers saw and split the neck 4 ways (or 3 ways). It will act as a collet. The bullet, seated in the neck of this case will seat to the depth correct with the length of the throat, when chambered, allowing you to precisely adjust your seating depth by comparing measurements of loaded ammo. This can be as precise or as rough a system as you desire! If greater seating depth precision is required? Another tool is necessary.

Bullet bearing surfaces are not relevant to overall length of the loaded round. The overall length is only relevant to bullets of the same type in the same lot.

Hope this is not confusing? GregH

 

[BIGNASTY]

Naaa I got ya Greg on the reloading!!!! Im ok with all of it im just not as tuned up on the gun build and you and HH. Give me a rifle and I can do the reloading for it. Back in CA I was the chapter president of the Royal Order Of the Red Mist. :-laf We would shoot ground squirrels (calif's version of the PD) used a 223 and 22-250. Would like to start talking to someone about GROUND HOGS I have a 220 swift and a 243 and a 25/06 that I think would make short work of ground hogs





Took the wife ground squirrel shooting one time she was looking at it threw a spotting scope ahhhhh how cute BOOOOM your one sick dude BIG :-laf

 

[HHhuntitall]

GHarm, not to be a jerk, but Dan's got it hidden in his somewhat vast website..... Lilja's barrel break in reccomendations: Lilja Precision Rifle Barrels - Centerfire Maintenance



As for a bore cleaner, I'm gonna go for this: New for 2007



I've used every concoction you can imagine, from Ed's Red Bore shine, to JB-paste, to Hoppe's #9... . Sharp Shooter beats 'em all, hand's down, across town. I don't even use a brush on my good barrels, anymore. I use a nylon brush on the factory, hammer-forged barrels, but the good lapped, Lilja, Krieger, Broughton, etc. , barrels don't need it. This stuff will take it out. You can clean a barrel with Hoppe's, then run a patch of Sharp Shooter though it, and you'll find more blue on the patches, indicating copper fouling. I experimented with this stuff, comparing Hoppe's #9, Sweet's 7. 62 (super-high ammonia content), and various foaming bore cleaners. I put the product directly on the bullet jackets of various bullets I've recovered, and took pictures of what happened. The Sweet's turned a little blue and ran off, the Hoppes almost had a blue tint, the foaming bore cleaner kinda sorta turned the jacket a little dark, but the Sharp-Shooter turned the jacket a bright copper color and ran off a blood-blue, thick, rich color!!! That's what I'm looking for!! And it's a metal protectant?!?!? It won't rust or corrode, and actually protects metal?!?!? You can leave it in the bore?!?! I'm in!!

Naaa I got ya Greg on the reloading!!!! Im ok with all of it im just not as tuned up on the gun build and you and HH. Give me a rifle and I can do the reloading for it. Back in CA I was the chapter president of the Royal Order Of the Red Mist. :-laf We would shoot ground squirrels (calif's version of the PD) used a 223 and 22-250. Would like to start talking to someone about GROUND HOGS I have a 220 swift and a 243 and a 25/06 that I think would make short work of ground hogs





Took the wife ground squirrel shooting one time she was looking at it threw a spotting scope ahhhhh how cute BOOOOM your one sick dude BIG :-laf

BWAAAA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA :gasp: HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA :clunk: :thudonground: Ouch, HA HA HA HA HA HA HA... ... ... . :getupoffground: he he he he he he he he, that's funny right there!!! That sounds like something someone in my family would do ... ... are we kin?!?

HH!

Pure lead melts at 621. 5*F. Paper smolders at a lower temperature!

Hmmm, a LILJA that isnt competitive? Can you send it back and get a replacement?

GregH

Unfortunately, Lilja can't guarantee accuracy, and I understand. They don't really know me, and I can't say we're best friends, so no, I can't send it back. And it's accurate, it's just not as accurate as I'd like it to be. I've let two different people, besides myself, reload and shoot it, I've recrowned it, tried various bullets, loadings, powders, etc, and it just won't pound out the X-ring. A little wind, a little error, and it's really, really hard to hit the 10ring, let alone the X..... It's a good practice rifle... . BUT..... I'm about to unscrew it, and since it's a heavy contour, I'm not going to be able to use it on a sporter rifle, sooooo... ... . Want to borrow it? I'm gonna take tomorrow off, so it wouldn't take much to unscrew it and bring it with me, if you want to play with it.....

 

[GHarman]

HH, Thanks! You are absolutely correct. I couldnt find it until I used your link!



I am amazed that he wont guarantee accuracy!

All I have is a 6MM BR Reamer. No . 243 or 6X284 reamers. If you want to pull that tube and rechamber it? I'll loan you those 6X284 Thacker dies. I'm not planning on any more 6mm's and presently have enough projects to bury me:{ for a while!

I may be able to accomplish the same thing with a 1-8" twist tube chambered for the 22/250. using the 63 gr semi spitzer's.





BIG, the LILJA Breakin procedure is in the link HH provided the last post!

I'll have to look in to that bore cleaner, too. I've tried a few, my-own-self!



HH, Lookin forward to seein' ya!

GregH

 

[HHhuntitall]

GHarm, thanks for the offer, but I think I'll leave the 243 chamber in it, for now... . I don't really need it, right now. I was hoping someday I'll get a lathe, and maybe I can get an offset tailstock, and I can contour it down some. It'd make a fine hunting barrel, I'm sure. I just thought if you wanted to play with it, you could, as I won't be using it.



OH, and it seems Lilja feels about the same way Krieger does about cleaning and break in procedures..... I know Tim at Broughton prescribes the same treatment, so that appears to be the industry non-standard... :-laf

 

[BIGNASTY]

Thanks for the maintenance info and break in procedures.

BIG

 

[Joseph Donnelly]

"WOW, 5020... . haven't seen any of that in a few years!! I've still got some stashes of 5010..... Widener's still has quite a bit of it, the last time I talked to them..... I'm surprised you didn't ever break 3,000FPS..... Were those bullets Flat based, thick jacketed? "



Those velocities were uncorrected so actual muzzle velocity was a bit over 3000. Iirc, the bullets were . 049" copper jacketed Barnes.

And, the barrel was "too short. " I next tried a 31" barrel and got another 200 fps in general.

 

[HHhuntitall]

Yep, that slow powder likes a long barrel... . I get the same result with my . 284s... @ 200fps with 4" barrel. Kinda like that stroke under the piston!!

 

[Joseph Donnelly]

I have a NULA . 284 with a 28" barrel, and call it a . 284 magnum. It gives over 2800 with the 175 Hornady and 3100 fps with the 154 Hornady.

 

[HHhuntitall]

I get the NULA, New Ultralight Arms, but what's the chamber spec? I've got a reamer Dad designed that's a . 284 improved, where we pulled some of the taper out of the chamber walls and slightly lengthened it for capacity... ... It works well, as does the . 280 Rem Improved he designed..... I don't like the fireforming brass, much... . lose some barrel life there, but what's a rifle made for?

 

[Joseph Donnelly]

It is a standard . 284 Winchester chamber. The factory cartridge is alreay pressy much "improved" with 35 degree shoulder and minimum body taper. The extra velocity comes from the long barrel and somewhat from modern powder (Rel 22 for the 154 gr, although H4831 works fine with the 175).