AmsOil and Soot

[amsoilman]

I posted this article once before, but for those of you that didn't read it, here it is again.



This should answer DonM's question regarding the size material that does harm to an engine, as the tests were conducted by two large Companies who are concerned with oil filtration and most likely spent alot of money to perform these tests.

According to the (SAE) Society Of Automotive Engineers paper 881825, AC Spark Plug and Detroit Diesel Corp. performed a joint study of the relationship between the level of engine oil filtration and Engine wear rates, and found finer filtration reduced the rate of Engine wear.



Diesel and Gasoline Engine wear rates were established by building a Diesel and Gasoline Engine with fully inspected wear components and inspecting them after the test. In both Engines, the upper and lower main bearings, oil rings and compression rings were inspected. In the Diesel Engine, the cam lobe profile and cylinders were also inspected, while the piston pin bushings, piston pins and cylinder liners of the Gasoline engine were inspected.



The total test duration was eight hours. To accelerate wear, 50 grams of AC Fine Test Dust was added, in slurry form, to the crank case every hour.



Diesel Engine wear tests were performed using filters with high efficiency ratings for particle sizes: 40 Microns, 8. 5 Microns and 7 Microns.



Gasoline Engines wear tests were performed using filters with high efficiency ratings for particle sizes of the following sizes: 40 Microns, 30 Microns and 15 Microns.



ANALYSIS



The researchers found clearances in the Diesel and Gasoline Engines varied between 2 and 22 Microns during engine operations. That means particles in the 2 to 22 Micron size range are most likely to damage Engine parts. Particles smaller than 2 Microns will slip through the clearances without damaging bearing surfaces.



CONLUSIONS



The researchers drew the following conclusions:



Abrasive Engine wear can be substantially reduced with an increase in single pass efficiency. Compared to a 40-Micron filter, Engine wear was reduced by 50 percent with 30-Micron filtration. Likewise, wear was reduced by 70 percent with 15-Micron filtration.



Controlling the abrasive contaminants in the range of 2 to 22 Microns in the lube oil is necessary for controlling Engine wear, and "The Micron rating of a filter as established in a single pass efficiency type test, does an excellent job indicating the filter's ability to remove abrasive particles in the Engine lube oil system.



The smallest particles most popular "full Flow" filters capture with high efficiency are sized 25 to 40 Microns, depending on the filter brand.

Wayne

amsoilman

 

[amsoilman]

If *I* approached you with an offer to SELL you this fabulous "miracle oil", and showed you that out-of-the-bottle, it "only" contained an added 136 ppm iron, 37 ppm chrome, and all those OTHER percentages of contaminents indicated in analysis listed above, YOU would GLADLY fork over *3 times* the cost of "regular" oil, and proceed to happily pour the stuff I was selling into yer crankcase?

Gary-KJ6Q,

I don't beleive any oil, "Miricale" or not has any of the metals you mentioned in them when new! Perhaps you don't understand... ... this is used oil were looking at here!



Wayne

amsoilman

 

[Midnite]

I may be wrong, but it looks to me like some are missing the point that the metals--ie, iron, chrome, lead, etc. are measured in *Parts Per Million*. These are particles so small that even a filter that was 100% effective at a *TENTH* of a micron wouldn't get any. In fact, if you simply stirred a bucket of new oil with a new, clean camshaft, chemical analysis of that oil would show a very small spike in iron content. This is why there's another line in the analysis report showing "insolubles"--ie, solids. Let's get real--just sneezing in the general direction of the dipstick tube is going to cause more engine wear than 136ppm iron in solution in the oil.



The metals content in an oil analysis report isn't a measurement of how "dirty" the oil is--it's more accurately a measurement of the length of time the oil has been in the engine.



Mike

 

[Vaughn MacKenzie]

Drawson: You commented about using ER in your engine. Did you do any analysis before adding the ER? I find it interesting how you have such low wear metal counts. I read the threads last year about ER but haven't seen any followup comments on it. Have you been running it since it was brought up back then? Do you think it has helped your wear metal numbers?



JJW-ND: You're my kind of guy, running long drains on Amsoil and Stratapores . I am on my first run of 5W30 but after 10k miles my Iron count was little higher than running the 15W40, so I'm not sure if I'll stay with the 5W30 due to higher cost.

How do you like CTC labs? It seems someone commented they are not as consistent as some other labs (who knows). What all do they measure and how expensive? I use Oil Analyzers but on soot and fuel percent it just comes up "<1. 0%. " I would like more specific numbers. Do they measure TBN? I assume they do Oxidation & NOX.



Vaughn

 

[JJW_ND]

CTC has been good to me!

They have been a good lab. Cheap sample kits... $95 for 10 postage paid includes TBN. I will try to attach a picture of a summary. If not I will send it your way Vaughn!



My reporting of Soot above was to show how little of it shows up. My oil is very very very black with 20K on it. But only 0. 4% soot.



jjw

ND

 

[drawson]

ER

Vaughn, Towing I have seen lower trans(5 speed) temps, not a whole lot but 10-15 deg. And looking back through all my Oil reports the metal wear numbers slowed down.



Oil and wear comparing between vehicles, driving habits, climate, temp, and how the vehicle is used, has alot more to do with measurements.



I drive 22 miles to work and back everyday, only 6 blocks of city driving(stop and go) then 4 miles of 45 MPH and the rest is 60-70 MPH. And on almost every weekend I shoot matches from 35-60 miles away one way mostly freeway at speed up to 80.



Now when you compare this to someone that does relitively short trips and alot more stop and go driving. I would except him to have more wear metal than mine. There are just too many variables. What I look for is a pattern and when I see something change I go after it and try to get it back in line. I have noticed that the three winter I have been running this oil that in the winter months the percent of fuel goes up and then back down as sson as it gets warm. I know that I idle longer before shut down in the summer. I have a theory on why this is but it goes against the common theory.



I got my new oil(5W/30 ser 3000) yesterday and when I change it sometime this week ER will be going in with itOo.

 

[Vaughn MacKenzie]

Thanks JJW_ND. That is cheaper than what I'm paying for OA (about $14).



Drawson, your driving habits in the winter are better than mine are. In fact, I realized the other day I ran a half tank of fuel all in town and only spent maybe 6 miles of it in 6th gear! About 80% of that was under operating temp and 40% below the point where the temp gauge registers . My drive to work is 3. 5 miles. Not to worry, I took a little road trip this week to make up for it.



Vaughn

 

[JJW_ND]

Don M....your going to like this!

Had some time today to call CTC and talk to an analysist (their term) about my sample and general questions. I asked what the Soot value (they measure in Percent) would have to be before they flagged it. The first flag criteria is A = Abnormal. This might require a corrective action that might not mean dump the oil. The Other flag is C =Critical. Never had one of these. The analysist said he look it up in his "book" asked what the engine was (Cummins) and what series (B) and he said 3 to 3. 5% . That is THREE to THREE point five percent. I rechecked as I did not believe him and he said it was indeed that high and was for the entire Cummins B,C,N11 etc.



Remenber, Labs test, stationaries, all types of impletments as well as on road trucks like ours.



He said anything under 1. 0% was very clean buring and a very low reading.



In my case, I never went above 0. 1% until the last December (2000) with a 0. 2% (30+ samples take by this time) and the last sample I just got back which was 0. 4%.



Here is CTCs phone number if you want to ask them yourself: 800-726-5400.



jjw

ND

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Wayne sez:



"Gary-KJ6Q,

I don't beleive any oil, "Miricale" or not has any of the metals you mentioned in them when new! Perhaps you don't understand... ... this is used oil were looking at here! "





ACTUALLY Wayne, I think it's YOU who misunderstand - my POINT is, if you wouldn't buy a NEW motor oil containing high percentages of iron and other contaminants in it for your engine, WHY would you willing leave the OLD contaminated stuff in there for so long?



If you wouldn't consider oil that contaminated suitable when NEW, WHY would you consider it perfectly OK after it't been in your engine for a year or more?



And for the the "shakers and quakers" over these discussions - this s largely in fun, and as a matter of friendly debate - few minds will be changed here - and few of us intend any offense by our views or comments. As long as we keep it clean, and personal abuse out, no real harm is being done - and no one forces ANYONE to read this stuff!

 

[Cummins Corvette]

Gary- I'm with ya. Mine gets black and I change it. Black = contaminated = bad.

 

[Don M]

JJW,

the soot detection method they use is IMO the best way. I said so in an earlier post.

Not sure what book he was reading from, but if you feel comfy running 3% soot, its your truck.

I realize your soot levels are low and will prolly never get that high.

Like Gary said earlier, we are never gonna change anyones mind here.



Don~

 

[Sled Puller]

If you have to dump a product (like STP) into your oil, to get the wear protection where you want it, --maybe you are not using the right oil!LOL!

But we are not going to change any minds here!



Gene

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

I've carefully avoided the "issue" of oil QUALITY here, because I remain FULLY convinced of the clear superiority of synthetics - yeah, even that nasty 'ol Amsoil (API certification or no!)!



My 2 primary concerns are COST, and my steadfast resistance to resort to extended oil changes as a crutch to mitigate that expense. My truck, using plain 'ol dino oil, changed at 5-7000 miles will most certainly outlast ME and the truck's body, so *I* see little point in spending significant $$$ to make it last even longer, assuming that it WOULD with synthetics and extended oil changes...



YUP, several bottles of STP, along with the dino oil I currently use is LOTS cheaper than the same change would be with a good synthetic. And *I* use the STP for the additional zinc, and sealing/scuff resistance and additional film strength I feel it provides. 2 times in the past - one with my current Dodge/Cummins, I had a SERIOUS overheating problem that I'm convinced would have destroyed an untreated engine - our old Ford Falcon, with the 302 V8 was the first, and it was still operational at 135,000 miles when we sold it, never had the heads off.



Last summer, my Cummins got so hot due to an apparent thermostat problem that it seized up and the starter wouldn't even crank it over until it cooled down... It is running as well today as it did before that incident, and an oil analysis AFTER that incident displayed the LOWEST contaminent numbers YET!



Did the STP provide extra protection in either of the above incidents? Shucks, *I* don't know for sure - but it sure didn't seem to HURT any!



What I *DO KNOW*, is that even with the STP added, and EXCELLENT oil analysis results, there's NO WAY my oil stays in my crankcase more than 7000 miles or so!

 

[Mark_Kendrick]

The color of the oil can be a good inicator of how dirty it is for the most part.



I put my Dual-bypass setup on last month and the oil stayed sparkling clean for 300+ mi of easy hwy driving. I then bought a truck in Arkansas and hauled a heavy 30ft gooseneck 400 mi to get it. loaded up and came back. I went 400 mi at 800# over GCVWR as fast as I could make it run. when I got back the oil was very black. Now, at 5k on the oil it has cleared up considerably. I have not tested it but my seat of the pants indicators are good and I'm getting ready to test it before I make some major fueling mods.

 

[JJW_ND]

Issue 35 and New motors

While I did not want to believe the CTC lab and 3% soot being normal, I see the same number referenced in issue 35. Seems like the new EGR motors might run soot up to 10%.



I can tell you oil looks just as black at 0. 1% as it does at 0. 4%. If you would never have it tested, you would think you left it in to long. It appears that even a 1 to 1. 5% is not bad but probably hard to attain with a 12V.



Brought back up becase I keep seeing black oil referred to as bad.



I wonder what oil with 10% soot looks like.



I think we don't reallize how clean these EPA banned motors really are.



jjw

ND

 

[Don M]

3% soot is getting very high IMO. Most extended drain intervals from the big OEm's for over the road trucks dont go to 3%.

For oil that returns to sevice in an extended drain programs the high is 1. 5%. For some two stroke diesels it is less than 1%, its . 8%.



I wonder if some folks feel the soot is ok at 3% and continuing service.



Check some other info in the issue 35 on page 86 and read their iron content at 15,000 miles. It was 114ppm. Kinda high IMO.

Further evidence that the extended drain stuff is playing with fire in our Cummins/Dodge trucks with the tiny little 11 quart pan.



Don~

 

[DocStressor]

I just finished reading SAE Technical Paper 2000-01-1993, which compares a conventional 15W-40 oil with Mobil Delvac 1 synthetic. The studies were all based on engine bench tests rather than field data. The take home messages seem to be:



1. The amount of soot an oil can hold while still providing in spec lubrication properties depends on both the type of oil (conventional vs synthetic) and the type of filter used (paper vs synthetic mixture).



2. The best combination for longevity is synthetic oil with a synthetic filter medium.



3. The viscosity of the conventional oil increased very rapidly once soot levels reached 5% and the filters quickly became clogged. Filters with synthetic media (microglass or Statapore?) took significantly longer to become plugged.



4. The synthetic oil continued to function within viscosity specs with up to 7. 3% soot content.



It is clear that the ability of the oil to keep small soot particles from agglomerating into larger particles, which leads to both increased viscosity and to filter clogging, is the determining factor for soot cutoff limits. These limits will vary with the type and brand of oil that you are using.



So 2-3% soot should not be too harmful, particularly when using a synthetic oil (I assume that Amsoil and Delvac 1 have similar dispersant properties). However, the TDI people has been correlating >2% soot with premature cam lobe wear, even with synthetic oil. Of course the tolerances of the little TDI engines are different from a Cummins. Soot content can affect the laminar flow properties of oil under hydrodynamic lubrication conditions which would make the oil run hotter in bearings, etc. So in general you want to keep soot levels low for maximum lubrication effectiveness. 2% seems like a conservative upper limit from what I have been able to determine.

 

[Don M]

Lee Weber wrote: "However, the TDI people has been correlating >2% soot with premature cam lobe wear, even with synthetic oil. Of course the tolerances of the little TDI engines are different from a Cummins. "



How are the cam lobe tolerance numbers different on either engine Im confused here. The cam lobes rub on the tappets or lifters right? No matter which engine it is.



How do synthetic base stocks and Dino base stocks make a difference in soot clumping? The additives do this, right?



Don~

 

[DocStressor]

Don -- There has been an ongoing debate on the TDI board about the cause of premature camshaft wear. These engines have cooled EGR systems and small crankcase capacities which result in faster rates of soot accumulation than in the Cummins. They also have overhead cams and operate at much higher rpm than our engines. The standard drain interval is 10,000 miles and synthetic oil is required by the factory to go that distance. So TDIs are excellent test beds for diesel oil performance since the engines are really stressed. Cam damage has been reported in TDI engines running xW-30W (rather than the recommended xW-40 weight), primarily those running even longer drain intervals using bypass filters. A good running TDI accumulates just under 2% soot after 10K miles. Longer drain intervals result in even higher levels of soot. Some folks blame the cam wear on the use of lower viscosity oil and others suspect it to be the result of high soot levels. Either factor reduces the ability of an oil to maintain a lubricant “wedge” between rotating metal parts. So when I indicated that the tolerances were different in the TDI, I really meant that the forces acting to break down an oil film in an overhead camshaft turning in a 4000+ rpm TDI engine are greater than in our overbuilt, pushrod Cummins toodling along at not much more that 2000 rpm.



The ability of an oil to hold soot in suspension is a function of both the additive package and the base oils. Synthetics such as Delvac 1 and Amsoil are blends of Group IV PAOs and Group V polyol esters. The ratio of this blend is critical and must be matched to the addpack in order to keep everything in solution. But this is relatively easy to do with synthetics since the components can simply be mixed together in different ratios to find out which works best. Metallic detergents and non-metallic dispersants coat small soot particles and keep them from interacting to form larger particles. The ester components of synthetic base oil, unlike the PAOs, are polar molecules that keep the coated soot particles in solution. Apparently an optimized blend of PAO/ester keeps everything suspended better than the stuff that comes out of the ground.

 

[amsoilman]

Lee,

very good explaination on the oil and the additives keeping the soot levels down by not letting them "aglomerate" as fast. Like I tried to say before, No Oil FIlter Will Take out Soot, as the Soot Particles are too small!



In earlier days(Before 1990) Diesel Engine oil would become BLACK in ten minutes after changing! Did we change the oil just because it was BLACK! No we did not! If we had changed just because the oil was BLACK, we would have changed oil very often! Now... ..... it wasn't only the oil that has become better... ... ... but also the engine designs have become better as well. Not nearly as much "blow-by" past the rings.



Wayne

amsoilman