AmsOil and Soot

[Gary - K7GLD]

Now *I* am getting confused as well - it SOUNDS like Lee, and Wayne, are claiming that soot ppm measures in oil analysis will be LOWER by the simple act if encouraging MORE but SMALLER soot particles...



SEEMS to ME, that the actual SOOT CONTENT and percentages will be the SAME, as far as actual volume is concerned, only that the individual particle sizes will be different!



SORTA like the guy ordering pizza - and when the waiter aked if he wanted the pizza cut into 4 or 6 slices, te guy sez "better cut it into 4 slices, I don't think I can eat 6"...



ALSO, wonder why it's considered BETTER for soot particles to be "individually suspended" in the lubricant at under 1 micron sizes, and continue to circulate, rather than encouraging it to bond with other soot particles and then be filtered OUT of the oil by an efficient filter? I know *I* would rather take steps to have it REMOVED, than encourage it to remain, regardless of size...

 

[DocStressor]

I think I understand your confusion, Gary. Let me try to clear things up. Soot content is measured as a percentage of the total weight of the oil. Oil weighs a little less than 1000 gm per liter. 11 quarts = ~ 10 liter. So a crankcase containing 1% soot is holding about 100 gm of soot in suspension. Check out the total capacity of the best oil filters and you will find that they only hold maybe 30 gm of material before plugging up. So you can see that it is not practical to try to filter soot out of diesel oil. When the total amount of accumulated soot exceeds the capacity of the additives, the soot particles rapidly aggregate to a size that CAN be removed by the filter and filters plugs up over a short time. Agglomerated soot also precipitates out on engine surfaces before it can be filtered out, which can lead to clogged oil passage and catastrophic engine failure. But this should not be a problem with a CH-4 rated oil that is either changed on regular basis or tested by oil analysis.



The flow characteristics and lubricating properties of the oil is affected by the size of the suspended particles more than the total mass of suspended material (up to a point). This is because large particles impede the flow of the oil more than a similar mass of smaller particles. Please don’t ask me to explain the physics behind this or we will bore everyone to death. While large particles increase viscosity, they also increase the internal friction of the oil. That means that more heat is generated in tight places like bearings and cam/follower surfaces. This local heating can cause the local viscosity to drop precipitously and allow metal to metal contact. Large soot particles >5-10 microns can also be abrasive since hard wear metal particles (iron for example) can aggregate with the soot. Oil with plenty of remaining detergent capacity containing up to 1% soot particles under 1 micron in size is almost as good a lubricant as fresh oil. So it doesn’t make sense to change out oil just because it is black. BTW, oil containing 0. 05% soot is just as black as oil with 5%. You need to do an oil analysis to known how much soot you have. But the Cummins is not a very sooty engine (wait til next year), and soot should never be a problem even out to 10,000 miles or more.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

SO, if I am interpreting your response correctly, there IS no diiference in *real* soot content when more/less dispersent is in effect, only the relative SIZE of the particles...



PLUS, one major reason to disperse soot particles is due to potential overburdening of commonly employed oil filters - which returns me to the thought that a LARGER capacity or more frequently changed "regular" one would handle the soot accumulation with less need for dispersants - and leaving the stuff to continue to circulate thru the engine...



Yeah - I know - the theory is that the "dispersed" soot particles are too SMALL to do harm - but *I* would still rather have it outta there!

 

[FD5]

My results

Oil analysis on 1/2/02 with 26,400 miles on oil, 257k on truck.

Viscosity @ 100c 16. 9

Soot <1%

TBN 12. 9

Fuel <1%

Iron 19

Chromium 2

Lead 4

Copper 9

Tin 1

Aluminum 7

Nickel 0

Silicon 5



Oil suitable for continued use change oil filters (which I did) resample next interval

 

[fest3er]

Originally posted by Gary - KJ6Q

... Yeah - I know - the theory is that the "dispersed" soot particles are too SMALL to do harm - but *I* would still rather have it outta there!

So you need a 2 GPH pump to run your engine lube through a sub-micron filter and change the filter weekly, or daily if you are truly paranoid.



Also, turn your pump down to minimize soot production.



Jes' tryin' t' be he'pful.



Fest3er

 

[Ted Constantine]

FD5,



What is you filter set up and at what intervals are you changing it or them. I am trying to figure out what people have made work.



Ted

 

[Pit Bull]

Anybody ever check out what the levels were on a dino oil like 15w40 Rotella T after 5000 miles using the Mopar filter?

 

[DocStressor]

The soot level is a function of combustion efficiency, not the type of oil used. If you tow heavy and/or use big injectors or a fueling box, soot will accumulate faster. A friend of mine tows a heavy 5ver with 2001 HO Cummins. His truck lets out a belch of black smoke when he shifts and his oil turns black after the first 100 miles. I talked him into an oil analysis and his 15W-40 Rotella came back with <1% soot after 5K miles. The oil was suitable for continued use. Like I said, neither the 12 valve or 24 valve Cummins makes much soot compared to some other diesels. Look at 5D5's results after 26K. The next generation engines should have EGR and will require CI-4 rated oils that can hold even more soot than current CH-4 oils.

 

[FD5]

Ted,

I have the Amsoil dual full flow/by-pass filter set up using 15w40 heavy duty diesel and marine oil with 26,400 on the oil and a first filter change recommendation. I plan to change the full flow filter at 12,500 and the by-pass filter at 25,000.

 

[Pit Bull]

Lee, when do you think we will see the CH-I oil hit the store shelves?

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

From another, similar thread:



To EACH reader in this thread, I pose this question:



ASSUMING we will obtain the approximately 400,000 miles the Cummins is good for, even on conventional dino oils,



1. How many miles per year will you put on your engine?

2. How long do you REALLY think you will keep your truck?

3. How many MORE miles do you think your engine will last with any of the available synthetics?



finally:



4. Do you REALLY think that with the actual MILES, and length of time YOU will keep your truck, you will obtain any significant benefit from the higher priced synthetics, than you would with a competing top brand dino oil?



CLUE:



At the usual average of 12,000 miles per year MOST of us put on our trucks, it will take *33. 3 years* to wear out the Cummins - what was the LAST vehicle YOU kept that long?



OR, do you just want the engine to last longer so the NEXT owner(s) get a "better deal"?



What shape do you figure the REST of the truck will be in after 33 years and 400,000 miles? Is there REALLY much point in the added expense of synthetics, when the engine will either outlive YOU, or the truck body - or BOTH?



Be honest now - most of this synthetics stuff, as it applies to the VAST majority of us, is BRAGGING rights and that warm and fuzzy feeling that "using the very best" gives us, and has little to do with PRACTICAL or real-life obtainable benefits!

 

[FD5]

In the 26,400 miles I have spent less than $109 which includes make up oil, 2 filters, and 2 oil analysis and kept 22 gallons of used oil from having to be disposed of along with filters based on 3,000 mile change intervals. I'll stay with the synthetics and oil analysis.

 

[Mark_Kendrick]

Gary,

Since 11/00 I have put 34K miles on my truck. I ended up stopping before trips to get oil changed. at 28k(11/01) I put in the Dual bypass kit and now ... 6k later I would be needing an oil change. I have synthetic though. . so in three years when I'm ready to change the oil give me a call.

 

[fest3er]

...

1. How many miles per year will you put on your engine?

2. How long do you REALLY think you will keep your truck?

3. How many MORE miles do you think your engine will last with any of the available synthetics?



finally:



4. Do you REALLY think that with the actual MILES, and length of time YOU will keep your truck, you will obtain any significant benefit from the higher priced synthetics, than you would with a competing top brand dino oil?

1. Averaging 25K per year so far.

2. 'Til it falls apart or cannot be made to pass safety inspections.

3. Irrelevant.

4. Yes.



If your only criterion is money, then use the cheapest oil you can get. However, if your criteria involve 1) reducing the risk of premature engine wear, 2) minimizing the time (and number of times) you spend changing oil, 3) want the best lubrication and filtration for your engine, and 4) want the peace of mind that comes with knowing you've done the best you can to ensure the engine never fails, then you should go with bypass filtration, synthetic oils, extended drain intervals and oil analysis.



No one can possibly understand the benefits of synthetic lubes, bypass filtration and oil analysis if they've trained their minds to spring shut like a steel trap at the barest hint of a new idea. Further, no one who rejects scientific testing, practical results and measured engineering data can ever hope to understand those benefits either.



But someone who had an open mind and is willing and eager to learn *can* learn the benefits of synthetic lubes, bypass filtration and oil analysis and can then determine for himself just how to handle the lubrication needs of his vehicle.



I do what I do to keep my truck running reliably in nearly any circumstances. And I really don't care if anyone else thinks I'm crazy, insane or just plain stupid for doing what I do. Neither do I think that of anyone else. There are far too many great people in this world to waste any time attempting to carry on discussions with folks whose minds have acheived the consistency of a plutonic mineral aggregate.

 

[PUMPERDUDE]

Big Toy,here ya go

Just what youre looking for Big Toy

5000 mile interval on Rotella T 15w-40

170,000 on truck Blackstone Labs









Iron 17

Chromium 4

Lead 1

Copper 1

Tin 1

Aluminum 2

Nickel 0

Silicon 3

SUS Viscosity @210* 75. 5

Soot < . 2

Fuel <0. 5



:-{} :-{} :-{} :-{}

 

[Steve St.Laurent]

Gary, I've been working on a project for the TDR to have all the TSB's online here the last couple of days - I came across this TSB (09-003-01) during my work:

Engine oil additives/supplements (EOS) should not be used to enhance engine oil performance. Engine oil additives/supplements should not be used to extend engine oil change intervals. No additive is known to be safe for engine durability and can degrade emission components. Additives can contain undesirable materials that harm the long term durability of engines by:



* Doubling the level of Phosphorus in engine oil. The ILSAC (International Lubricant Standard Approval Committee) GF2 and GF3 standards require that engine oil contain no more than 0. 01% Phosphorus to protect the vehicles emissions performance. Addition of engine oil additives/supplements can poison, from added sulfur and phosphorus, catalysts and hinder efforts to guarantee our emissions performance to 80,000 miles and new requirements of 150,000 miles.



* Altering the viscosity characteristics of the engine oil so that it no longer meets the requirements of the specified viscosity grade.



* Creating potential for an undesirable additive compatibility interaction in the engine crankcase.





Generally it is not desirable to mix additive packages from different suppliers in the crankcase; there have been reports of low temperature of low temperature engine failures caused by additive package incompatibility with such mixtures.

Thought you might find that interesting.

 

[JConley]

The only person I know of that drives 12K miles a year is my mother in law. My wife and I average about 40K miles a year between our two trucks. I buy oil at wallmart 12 gallons at a time

 

[Pit Bull]

Re: Big Toy,here ya go

Originally posted by PUMPERDUDE

Just what youre looking for Big Toy

5000 mile interval on Rotella T 15w-40

170,000 on truck Blackstone Labs









Iron 17

Chromium 4

Lead 1

Copper 1

Tin 1

Aluminum 2

Nickel 0

Silicon 3

SUS Viscosity @210* 75. 5

Soot < . 2

Fuel <0. 5



:-{} :-{} :-{} :-{}

Pumperdude

Sorry for the dumb question, but could you explain the numbers and tell me if they are good? Also was this city driving, pulling, etc? Thanks for the post.

 

[Don M]

Steve,



Funny you should bring up the Phos content of oils and the ILSAC.



Part of the API certification is that oils meet this requirement. Actually you have decimal point off in your quote. The MAX is set at . 10% not . 010%



Amsoil has themselves stated that part of their insistance to not get the API certification is because of the level of Phos would be too low in their opinion if they did get the API certification. API sets a limit on total Phos you can add to engine oils and Amsoil calls it too restrictive.

The Phos is a wear additive and they have to add more than the average oil marketer to get the level of wear protection they feel comfortable with. This goes against all others in the oil biz. The rest of them can produce a product with lower Phos content and still have the same wear rates.



Two years ago I was involved in a project of a fire protection consulting for one of the largest Phos producing companies in the nation. FMC. The project took almost 6 months.

Projects were in Soda Springs Idaho and Pocatello Idaho.

Pocatello was the processing plant and the Soda area was the actual mining operation. I can tell you from experience that Phos is one of the hottest things I have ever been around. Very hot to the touch and very dangerous. Guys would burn their feet through their boots with this stuff. It is very caustic.



This is part of my reasoning that high Phos containing oils are caustic to seals in engines. If Phos will burn through boot leather and rubber, it will eat into seals easily. Im still getting it all compiled. Oil samples are slow to come back when you run all the tests I am.





Don~

 

[PUMPERDUDE]

Its a good report,Big Toy

Chromium (rings) was a little high. 4 vs 3 ppm avg.

Low tin and lead indicate good bearings(correct me if I'm wrong)

Low aluminum means pistons look good

Low silicon (sand) means the air filter is working good



About 1500 miles was towing 9000# TT. The rest was mostly highway miles. Hope this helps you.