Amsoil and the API

[SteveH]

Don has built up his posting numbers beyond all reason in just this one thread. Every other post is his and sometimes he has two together. Why doesn't everyone just leave it to the man who has gleaned more knowledge in his few years than anyone else and back out of this thread. Maybe it would be a good idea for the moderator to step in and pull the plug. I can't see anything constructive coming out of this thread, only the rantings and ravings of a self proclaimed "answer man". Toodle Doo Don



Steve H.

 

[fest3er]

Originally posted by MGM

Those were Dons quotes from this thread.

The following are Dons quotes from the past: ...

*Now* I'm reminded of a song performed by Denver, Boise and Johnson, entitled "The '68 Nixon (This Year's Model)":



Yes, it's the '68 Nixon

A brother to man

...

He can jump from left to right

and not lose his place

...

The '68 Nixon is heeere.





DonM, I don't care that Amsoil is not API certified. I don't care that Mack do not want buyers of their engines to use synthetics. I don't care that Cummins clearly state that synthetic fluids alone do not justify extended drain intervals. And I am disheartened that you have had bad experiences due to Amsoil lubricants



All I care is that Amsoil has been around for 30 years, that they have a darn fine reputation for producing a quality, consistent product that is one of the best on the market, that of all the people I've heard of using Amsoil, I heard of no one else having problems with it or caused by it. I am using Amsoil and will continue to use Amsoil, because I believe it is the best lube for my truck.



ZAs to your seal failure problems, did you buy your truck new? or used? Have you worked it very hard? or barely? Have you run it very hot? or only colld/cool?



Why do I ask these things? If you bought it used, prove the damage wasn't latent and caused by the previous owner. Extreme heat can cause seals to harden. Prove to us that your engine has never been run extra hot for long periods of time. Prove to us that you have never driven your truck hard. Prove to us you have never exceeded GVWR and GCWR. Prove to us that the measurements of all components in your truck were within spec and properly matched up at the time of manufacture. Prove to us the lube levels in your truck have never been lower than the minumum required.



There's a lot more to failed seals than simply oil.



Perhaps you've learned quite a bit about lubrication in recent days/weeks. But there's still a lot more to learn, like the thickness of the load-bearing cushion of oil that prevents parts from wearing out within 50 miles. Knowing this thickness will tell you what size particles can remain suspended in oil without harming the engine.



And you never did acknowledge that lube oil is filtered *before* being sent through the engine. Rather, you suggested I pour sand in my filler tube because it would all get filtered out immediately and not harm the engine if, in fact, the oil *was* filtered first. And I had simply asked a polite question.



Like Gene, this is my last post in this thread. Perhaps I'll peruse it now and again if I'm feeling a little down, but there's really nothing more I can add that would be at all helpful.



Fest3er

 

[Pit Bull]

My Uncle owns a steel foundry and use to make winches for Sears. He would also sell them direct to the public with his Foundry name on them, instead of the Sears name. He would sell them direct and rate them at 18,000 lbs. They were tested for 24,000 lbs without any problems. Sears sold them rated at 12,000 lbs. I ask him why the difference. He said that it was to cover his *** and Sears wanted even more coverage. I wonder if this also applies to the oils we use and our Cummins engines? I know that the Cummins is rated as a medium heavy engine and that means it should be good for 180,000 miles before over haul. But it sounds like 500,000 to 1,000,000 miles is not out of the question with these engines and proper maintance.



Just trying to change the subject a little

 

[Don M]

Gene,



The thread I started was to alert people that Amsoil has no API licensing for their fully synthetic line of diesel oils.

I also spoke about my negative results from Amsoil products.

What I got was flamed from the same old Amsoil dealers that seem to pop into every single oil related thread.

If you go back in the threads you will find that I at one time did like the Amsoil oil. I did believe in oil analysis as the majic bullet to kill the oil changing blues. I said something to the effect that Amsoil was working good and I loved the idea of doing extended drains.

I had let the salesmen of Amsoil cloud things up. I had the disease and had it bad. Now Im all better. I have won the battle of amsoholic disease. I was hoping to put forth a differing opinion for others to see.

Another guy RE Miller posted about oil leaks after using amsoil and said this



"I used Amsoil once in a 7. 3 diesel. It had no leaks prior to putting in the Amsoil and only had 75,000 miles on it. After running Amsoil once, it developed leaks that continued after switching back to Dino oil"





He was quickly blasted to bits from dealers all over.



He posted it again

"Never had mechanical trouble with Amsoil, but my 7. 3 diesel developed serious leaks after using it, and they did not go away after stopping either. This engine was a re-man, and had no leaks before Amsoil. "



Once again you guys slammed him. I got the same blast for my leaks too. I was told I did not know how to install a filter properly.

Seems like any complaints are quickly hammered to dust by amsoilers.



Gene wrote to another guy that reported leaks and typed: "BTW, that guy with a leak, I believe it was a poor install of the seaL FROM THE DEALER. "



Of course you never even saw the vehicle and had promptly made a diagnosis.



To me Gene typed: "And would the Amsoil dealer that stole Dons wife please take her back?"



And to Illflem Gene typed " illflem,

Did an Amsoil dealer run of with your wife?

Let the grudge go man!

gene "



Same garbage for eveyone that disagrees huh?



You think extended drains are the way to go for eveyone but, Dave Mitchell does not do so.

Gene Wrote" I saw Micthell's rod bearings on Delo, after 2 years of pulling. What can I say, I was impressed.

Of course, he dumped the oil once a week!!"



Which is it. Extended or dump early for overfueled trucks?





Mark,



I routinely do voltage drop calculations for low voltage circuits using ohms law. After the calcs are done and the job is complete I go and field test the circuit to get a good empirical comparison.

Further, I recently calculated the proper concentration of clean agent fire suppression chemical for a data room at micron technologies. Part of the calculation is to consider compartment leakage. We have to empirically test the leakage as well. Verification is something I do all the time. Please keep your unqualified remarks about my ability to understand and evaluate anything. Next time you rebuild an engine you can forego the mic and use your eyes and fingers. Let me know how well the rebuild lasts.



fast3er,



I ordered my truck new and it was leak free until the Amsoil worked its majic.



Everyone,



Is there a single shred of Amsoil test data I could see? Anything? Not a visual thingee.



Don~

 

[illflem]

Amsoil quotes from the noria site that echo my feelings on it:



"I've been an Amsoil dealer since 1980, and I'll be the first

to admit some of their "dealers" are a bit over the top.

However, I have always found that all the Amsoil products I've

tried have worked as advertised. I work as a mechanical

engineer and try to be as professional as possible when

dealing with potential customers. Amsoil is NOT the best

product in every application, particularly if you are

using short drain intervals, due to some particular

operating conditions ... . "



TooSlick











"Under normal circumstances my business dealings are very professional;for some reason, when you don't have the ability to look someone in the eye while conversing, it makes it very difficult to see someone's intent when speaking or their tone of voice; that's how most of us are able to have sensible conversations when speaking face to face; however, when chatting on here "it seems" some are very defensive and unfortunately Amsoil is one subject that gets them that way. Hopefully we can still continue to share valuable information to those who want and need it. I have never had these kinds of conversations when speaking face to face with someone. "



Kevin Alexander





"I think one of the biggest problems regarding Amsoil on the internet is that alot of the fanatical salespeople who strongly believe in their product, have a hard time not brow beating or cutting down competitive products.



Deal with your knowledge of your product but don't make generalizations or out of context statements regarding a product. "



'no name'.



BTW I have never used Amsoil and never will

 

[danandamy]

COME ON THREAD, DIE DAMN IT!!!

 

[danandamy]

Ok Ok, confession time.



I USE GOLDEN WEST for $0. 69 at dollar store. I have to use a stick to get it to drain out at oil change time but I figure my Fram oil filter catches the bad stuff.



dollardan

 

[Riflesmith]

Originally posted by Don M



Riflesmith wrote: "With crankcase gases vented to the intake air stream AND exhaust gas recirculation, these little engines [VW TDI's] place higher demand on engine oil than our Cummins. "



This statement is simply not true. It is a fact that diesel oils can take much more abuse than gasser oils for the most part. Gasser stuff is not nearly as hard on wear rates as diesels. Cummins will have recirculated exhaust gas and will put even more stress on it in the near future. Yes, our I think it all goes down hill next year. Guess who is upgrading oil standards as well?

Don~

This is absolutely incredible. If I understand your fuzzy logic, our Cummins would place LESS demand on the oil if we had EGR and crankcase gases in our intake air stream? Incredible. Diesel oils can take alot of abuse? If this is so you are undermining your own argument! Then you contradict yourself by saying "Cummins will have recirculated exhaust gas and will put even more stress on it in the near future. " right after telling me that my statement is "simply not true".



Unbelievable, absolutely unbelievable.

 

[Riflesmith]

Originally posted by Don M

Riflesmith,

Do you know why you saw the crosshatch pattern? I have seen many crosshatch patterns in cylinder walls. The block should wear much slower than the rings. I have crosshatch patterns in my cylinders too. Many guys do. But the rings and pistons are the parts that wear the most. Ring and cyliner wear is asymetrical.

They dont have the same wear rates.

My buddy has an old monte carlo with over 300,000 miles on it. Only dino juice was used. It still runs ok.

No snake needed to go high miles.

I challenge you to find where I claimed that regular oil changes with conventional oil would not allow an engine to last. I was simply trying to give a personal example of extended oil drains in actual practice. Would the results have been similar with conventional oil changed every 3,000 miles? Probably. The fact is you claim extended drains don't work. I have personal evidence that says you are all wet.

 

[Don M]

Riflesmith,



No you dont understand what I was trying to say. You stated that the current EGR gasser engines are harder on oils than the Cummins is now. I feel that statement is not correct. Then I said or meant to say that the new EGR Cummins will have an even more challenge for oil marketers. The EGR will add to the load, hince my sentence that says "guess who is upgrading oils" to deal with the higher stress. Summary below:



1. Cars will never stress the oil like diesels

2. Diesel engines are harder on oil than gassers

3. EGR diesels will be even tougher







Oh, BTW I just found two documents stateing that FORD and GM both do not and will not warrant oil related failure from the use of a NON API licensed oil.

No matter how people twist and turn the words around, the big three will not warrant the use of non API licensed oil.

Oh, I just found another from Chrysler. Granted Chrysler is kinda dead now, but Im sure Daimler has the same idea.



I also found a case were a toyota dealer told a guy to pound sand on an oil related failure that used Amsoil and extended the oil drains. He did not get the oil analyzed until 12k and Amsoil told him to pound sand as well. They wanted it done at 10k. Lawyers love this kinda stuff. The go by the deeper pocket theory. Is Don or Riflesmith gonna have the bucks to fight the Amsoil or toyota pockets? I would have been easier to do what the OEM asked and gotten a new engine from toyota.



The evidence is building. Did you read what the cummins website said?



"Synthetic Oil



Synthetic oil may be used provided they meet performance and chemical requirements. However, the use of synthetic oil does not justify extended oil change intervals. "







Don~



Im losing hope on you Riflesmith

 

[Riflesmith]

Originally posted by Riflesmith



On www.tdiclub.com which deals with Volkswagen diesels, there are alot of individuals running synthetics and extended drains with the usual excellent resluts. With crankcase gases vented to the intake air stream AND exhaust gas recirculation, these little engines place higher demand on engine oil than our Cummins.

Don,

I don't hold out much hope for you. If you had read my post you keep quoting you would have realized I was talking about Volkswagen TDI engines. These engines ARE DIESELS Don, direct injected, turbocharged and intercooled. I never once suggested that a gas engine with crankcase gases in the intake air stream and EGR were as hard on oil as a diesel. It is becoming obvious that you have to have the last word and you are welcome to it.



It is just sad and bears repeating that this whole thread was caused by a disgruntled customer who bought some motor oil, installed it in a vehicle with marginal seals. The synthetic oil, due to its aggressive detergency, dissolved all the crud left by the use of conventional lubricants, exposing the marginal seals for what they were. If Amsoil causes oil leaks, why doesn't everyone who uses it have problems?

 

[Don M]

Originally posted by Riflesmith





I challenge you to find where I claimed that regular oil changes with conventional oil would not allow an engine to last. I was simply trying to give a personal example of extended oil drains in actual practice. Would the results have been similar with conventional oil changed every 3,000 miles? Probably. The fact is you claim extended drains don't work. I have personal evidence that says you are all wet.

RS wrote: "The fact is you claim extended drains don't work"...



I claim that extended drains are not meant to go to the extremes that some guys are doing it. I said that extended drains can be done with prudence, but do like the idea for the Cummins and I do not like the idea at all with overfueled engines and provided the reasons why. Cummins does not agree either. What else do you want? Do you really hate changing your oil that bad? You can go about 5000 miles. The newer ISB's can go 7500. Whats the big problem?

I tried the extended drain stuff and fell for the tricky labeling too. I was driving about 7000 miles a month and had to change the oil at the worst times. I fell for it because I was lazy and becasue I let my better judgement get hi-jacked by tricky sales tactics.





I actually have found a bunch of evidence that shows the new isodewaxed oils from Chevron i. e Delo is superior to synthetics in wear rates of certain engine parts. Good old Delo can be had for a buck a quart. The data was from a real oil test the OEM's use to test oil. Not a four ball wear test that has NOTHING to do with engine wear tests.



Where is my Amsoil data? Ya know, the real tests from a lab. Not a visual inspection.



I wish the conversation could be between you and I and leave the sales guys out. Unless you are a salesman too.



Don~

 

[Don M]

Originally posted by Riflesmith





Don,

I don't hold out much hope for you. If you had read my post you keep quoting you would have realized I was talking about Volkswagen TDI engines. These engines ARE DIESELS Don, direct injected, turbocharged and intercooled. I never once suggested that a gas engine with crankcase gases in the intake air stream and EGR were as hard on oil as a diesel. It is becoming obvious that you have to have the last word and you are welcome to it.



It is just sad and bears repeating that this whole thread was caused by a disgruntled customer who bought some motor oil, installed it in a vehicle with marginal seals. The synthetic oil, due to its aggressive detergency, dissolved all the crud left by the use of conventional lubricants, exposing the marginal seals for what they were. If Amsoil causes oil leaks, why doesn't everyone who uses it have problems?

You got me... I did not read it. I did not follow your link, at the time my youngans' were gettin' a bath and when they get out of the tub its like herding cats (1. 5, 3 and 5 years) all bailing out at once and runnin the halls naked. I was trying to round them up and read the post at the same time. Sorry for the burp. I will go read it. I dont like extended drains in our trucks. I have no opinion of diesel volkswagons. I would lie to go see what volkwagon has to say about the extended drains and comment back. I do know that Cummins dont like it.



Don~

 

[Riflesmith]

As I stated, you may have the last word, simply due to you outlasting everyone else on this subject. But that does not mean you are right... ... .....





I, for one am done with this thread. It would be far easier to convince a cow or a pig that we are doing them a favor by eating them. Saves them the trouble of looking at their reflection in the trough every morning.

 

[Don M]

Im reading the site you asked me to. I can find any asmoil stuff yet.



Don~

 

[amsoilman]

DonM,

Where is my Amsoil data? Ya know, the real tests from a lab. Not a visual inspection.

Have you ever seen a bottle of the HDD sereis 3000 5W-30 Don? Printed on every bottle is a comparison of 5 different oils showing "wear rates". Even lists them by manufacturer name. This test was done by an independent lab.

I do beleive if this was not true, the oil companies that are listed would be taking someone to court, BIG TIME!



I'm not going to continue with this thread any longer, as it seems we are dealing with a very disgruntled individual with "tunnel vision".



Best regards in all your choices.

 

[dresslered]

Wayne-

I think the only problem that some people are having with Amsoil is the amazing claims made by the dealers of the product. Of course, they have a vested interest. In fact, you yourself, preach the product in your login name and signature. You are suppose to be a moderator, and the only reason the TDR lets you get away with it is that there are no direct competing advertisers on this site. Apparently, Don was given a sales pitch that he later found was not entirely accurate. When he posted his concerns, all the dealers jumped in to defend the product they sell. If there was a similar post about any other oil, it would have died long ago since nobody would be directly associated with it. In regards to another Oil Company suing Amsoil, I don't think that they would bother due to the very small market share that they could possibly recapture. Be responsible.

 

[Don M]

Wayne,



thats the four ball wear rate test I wrote about in the earlier post. It is not an engine wear rate test. You, MGM, and others seem to still think I have an axe to grind with Amsoil. I comes up from one of you about every 3rd post.

Once again, I have no axe to drind. I have given you proof that Cummins and Dodge as well as just about every other OEM has set minimum standards for oil that goes in their engines.

Amsoil does not meet the standards they have set. Meaning the product has elected to forego API testing and receive the license or donut that they ask for. Amsoil is smarter and better in their own opinion than all the other companies and OEM's.

Yes, I had oil leaks from Amsoil and most of the salesmen that first heard of my troubles came out in force to slam me down and propher that Amsoil wont cause leaks. Now several have come back and talked about how Asmoil is slicker, more aggressive on old dirt and gunk, and will find leaks from marginal seals.

Bottom line is: I had no leaking before the Amsoil now I have 5.

Some have been repaired and others still leak.



So to sum it all up:



1. Amsoil has NO API certification or license for its fully synthetic oil line

2. Amsoil caused me to have leaks whether from marginal seals or whatever.

3. I have reapeatedly asked for Amsoil salesmen to provide me with engine wear rate data to back up their claim of it being a superior product and have nothing more than a visual tear down and a four ball wear rate test that is not even close to an engine test.

4. If anyone ever says a word about Amsoil in a negative light they will be attacked from every Amsoil salesmen that finds the thread.

5. Every manufacturer, OEM, engine designer and builder I have spoken with that actually does engine oil testing has nothing good to say about Amsoil for various reason ranging from way to high numbers on certain elements that actually cause more wear to rocker arms or crossheads, and inconsistancy in product.



Don~

 

[Oil Man]

Licensed, Certified, ISO etc.

OK once again Lubrication Engineers 8800 Monolec Ultra 15w-40 is API LICENCED CH-4, CF, CF-2 / SJ. It is also approved by Mack as MackEO-M Plus http://www.macktrucks.com/product_lit/litfrme.html It is Cummins CES 20076. It is the right viscosity for your trucks (15w-40) and not only has a VERY low wear rate but has an oxidation resistance better than some synthetics. LE oils are manufactured under an ISO 9001 Certified Quality System, which will ensure the same high quality oil time after time. It will go very long oil drains like it was designed to do and handle soot for those same long oil drains.



I’ve heard it said that a bypass filter would not take out the wear metals that you see in oil analysis. They will take out some of the wear metals that your spin-on full flow filter does not take out. If your full flow filter filters down to 30 microns and you were to do a particle count on it you would see something like this;



0 to 5 microns 10,000 ppm

6-10 microns 500 ppm

11-20 microns 100 ppm

21 to 30 microns 30 ppm

30 to 50 microns 3 ppm



By doing oil analysis you only see the particles that are about 30 microns or larger. When you install a bypass filter that is a 5-micron filter, then you would see a great drop in particles that are larger than 5 microns. And yes this would change your reading of oil analysis at the 30 and above micron range. This is just an example of what you might see and not an exact replication of any actual test.



I’ve heard it said that soot is a lubricant or that filters will take it out or that it will become abrasive to your engine. Soot is, or should be about 1 to 3 microns of size if your engine oil is doing its job. If an oil does not have a good detergent/dispersant or one that is used up, then the soot starts to stick to themselves causing a larger soot particle. When soot becomes larger in the size of 5 to 7 microns then it can become abrasive to cylinder walls. Soot in never a lubricant. You must have at least a 1-micron absolute bypass filter to take out the soot. There will be a blackening of the oil even if you take out the soot. Black oil does not mean bad oil.



I hope I’ve cleared up some misconceptions about oil. If you need an API licensed oil, or an oil that is manufactured under an ISO 9001 system, or need to see that your oil has the Mack EO-M Plus certification or that it is Cummins 20076 etc. then call Mag-Hytec at 1-818-786-8325 and try the LE 8800 15w-40 engine oil and set your mind at ease.

 

[lschultz]

I m getting tired of reading this. Put an end to it. Use what you want its your truck!Theres somebody like you- Don M - over on Freds TDI. Or is it you?I want even look at this anymore.