Amsoil and the API

[Don M]

Bob,



please read this post and let it sink in before firing back. I will do the same for you too.



I have reported very good oil analysis on oil that had about 8000 miles on it. It was Amsoil and I had the daul by-pass filters on board. I feel that the by-pass filters can remove the evidence of internal engine wear and therfor not show what really goes on inside after the lond drain cycles. That being said, I still feel that by-pass filters are a good thing if the oil is changed on a timetable that meets the OEM's guidelines. They remove more stuff and therfor are better for that application. I do feel that the wear particles can be removed and give a better than actually test result. OEM's know it too. Maybe oil drain cycles are good for some applications, but not for overfueled engines and not for the super extended oil drain cycles some do. I see guys with a 100,000 miles on their oil. Others see this and do the same thing hoping to never pull the drain plug again. I did. Some guys have more soot production from extra fueling. Extended drains are not for everyone.



Don~

 

[Sled Puller]

Originally posted by Don M





Of course the wording was tricky and seems to be there for poeple to think its certified.



Don~

Don,

The wording is only tricky to people in Florida that don't know how to vote properly.

Now you are sounding like Jesse Jackson speaking for the "people' who misunderstood..... right.



Plain English.

 

[Bob Riley]

I feel that the by-pass filters can remove the evidence of internal engine wear and therfor not show what really goes on inside after the lond drain cycles

More opinions Don. Call any oil lab and ask. Bypass filters DON NOT remove wear metals. This is why you must know that in extended drain situations, wear metals are accumulative. Try an experiement. Take an oil sample, get the wear numbers, change the filter, let it run a bit, take another sample. The numbers will be almost identical. I've done it myself. Don, you had the answer staring you in the face and just didn't beleive it.



Amsoil's bypass filter is efficient at 100% to 3 microns. Some systems are more, some less, but if you had wear metals large enough for this to remove, you would buy a new engine in less than 50k miles. There's not that much room for wear.





Bob

 

[Sled Puller]

Originally posted by Mark_Kendrick





Not all of it(Amsoil) is installed because when I cralled under the truck to do the transmission I found a leaking tailshaft.

WHOA!!!!!!

Hold everything!!!

A leak that was not "caused" by Amsoil!!!



Mark, now you should go attack the oil company who is responsible for that leak!!!



Remember our heros motto:



"If there was no oil in there, it would not leak. "

Gene

 

[Don M]

Gene, no one is feeding me jack crap. Im looking around for info with eyes open. Oh, the info was not from anyone or some spook or whatever. It was from me looking around.

After the 5 leaks started... I decided to see what was up with Amsoil. I soon found out the API certification was non existant. I did not know it was not. I read the owners manual and found out that in my 95 truck the oil must be certified by the API. I still believe they feel that way. Detroit, MACK, Eaton and most other manufacturers feel this way too. It must be certified for their approval to use it.

Then as I looked around for oil related topics and I found the soot loading data and was shocked to say the least. The data came from the SWRI, Detroit, MACK, Petro Canada, Exxon, etc.

There are hundreds of tests going on at any one time around the world on oil. Most are diesel related becasue the diesel engine is very popular and over seas it seems to dominate the roads. Add in trucks, trains, mining, etc and it really is everywhere. So, oil and soot and diesels are constantly tested. The info is out there if you guys want to look around. I posted the Detroit diesel web-site pargraphs that state the oil must be API certified. I posted the MACK site too. Many of you decided that the OEM's are rediculous and you know better than they. Your choice.

NASA, car and driver, aei-tech is good too. Check out Wilks Enterprises too.

Most people dont know just how oil is tested and certified. How the formulations are derived, etc. I sure did not. I was educated this week for sure.



You guys please read the link below and see what I have been writing about.



http://www.aei-tech.com/btsa_brochure_r3.pdf



of course this is just part of the data. Its everywhere and the name Amsoil is laughed at if you look for it. The guys in the know... wont even get a few sentences out of their mouths before they begin to use words like: junk, snakeoil, inconsistant, etc. Pick up the phone and call the engineers and developers of engine companies. I did. I work with a bunch from NIST and the INEL that are involved with lubricants. They are all making jokes about Don buying Amsoil now. I have e-mails from everyone asking how I could have not looked into more carefuly and did I get bit by the snake. Geeesh!



I think the difference between amsoilers and non-amsoilers is just a few internet searches and phone calls away. Of course one must first have an open mind and heart to see through the nonsense and look at facts.



Don~

 

[Don M]

willyslover,



kinda got in your own trap huh?



You did not have to pull it though.



Don~

 

[Sled Puller]

Originally posted by MGM

Don,

This has been discussed in some detail before. Check the archives, and try the search feature.



If you think Amsoil does not meet or exceed the API specs, like they say they do, call the FTC, and get a lawsuit filed.

Willy,

I saw your post, I tried to start this off the right way!



Don, yep, everybody is laughing at Amsoil.



That is why they are all coming out with synthetics, huh?

People laughed at me for buying a Diesel.



But I really don't care what they think.

maybe some of your people "in the know" are also salesmen? For other companies?

The tech department at Clevite had nothing but good to say about Amsoil, are they in the know enough for you?



Gene

 

[Don M]

Gene,



of course I hold all opinions as such until they are proven with data. If clevite has run Amsoil tests with their bearings in a controlled enviro I would be very much interested.

Get me some data and show me. The fed-mog guy I spoke with could not stop laughing at me.

The folks I have gathered data from, for the most part, are not in competition with Amsoil. Amsoil is a small and pretty much tiny player in oil markets. I love synthetic oils. I feel they are the superior oil in many ways. That does not hold true in our case where the oils higher price cannot be justified with extended oil drains. I never said I did not like them. I even said I liked Amsoil. Two weeks ago I would have told you I felt Amsoil was a fine product. That was before the research I did.



Tell me, how can Clevite have a data test bed to get data from when the oils formula is changing? They may know the test they performed on one mix was good, but they dont know the formula was good on the next mix. The data is not staying consistant.

Wear can go up and down with additive amounts and mixes.

Simple stuff. Common sense stuff. No mystery. So far all I have from you is anecdotal blather and nonsense. Before my decision to use Amsoil I did not even now how to do an archive search. Wish I did though. Funny, the more I look into the archives the more I see Amsoil salesmen jumping on anyone that holds a differing opinion of the product. Its highly defended by folks who have a monetary gain to be had.



I have posted my evidence and findings and given you internet addresses and such. You have yet to give me a single test result from Amsoil. Just the chessy little 20 dollar oil analysis junk science. I did find in the archives were you posted to a guy that you fully expected your engine to go 800,000 miles from the use of Amsoil. He felt he could go about 400,000 with dino and you said you could double that. No matter what you say... its just an unproven little opinion based on what? Nothing, you have not gone 800,000 miles and you aint gonna go 800,000 miles.



To back up my claim that extended oil drains are hogwash for our Dodge/Cummins trucks and Amsoil will never pay for itself in the long run, You can read about the fella who went over a million miles with dino oil and changed the oil on a timely basis like I said was prudent, in the TDR magazine.



Please give me some internet info I can quickly read or test data showing that Amsoil will meet the spec they say the will for all the manufacturers on the bottle. I bet even you cant get them from Amsoil.

They list Volvo, MACK, Cummins, Detroit, Mercedes-Benz, MAN, etc. on the bottle and I have yet to see them show performance dat that shows the oil passed the tests or will re-pass after a formula changes.





Please put your money where your mouth is... show me some dern data. Current data would be nice too. I have only found an old test from 1996 of Amsoil and it was not the tests the manufacturers use determine the acceptable performance of oil for theri engines.

Four ball wear tests are not the same as the Cummins test where they weigh the parts and run the test and weigh the parts again to really check for wear.



you amsoilers have painted yourselves into corner by selling to friends and family and TDR members. If you ever got the data that the Amsoil was inferior how would you explain to all your customers you were wrong in the first place? Amsoil figured it out a long time ago... get guys to be dealers and get more guys under them to be dealers and pretty soon the guys will not be able to back out. They will be trapped. If they change their minds they will be making fools of themselves because they were so vigilant at protecting the name in the first place.

Shame on amsoil. I can buy the best dino oil I will ever need over the counter. The million plus mile truck in the TDR is proof. The controlled test data from Cummins is more proof.



I see you amsoilers giving me silly little 100,000 and 200,000 mile reports about amsoil and never considering the engine was design for 300,000 (12 valve) and 400,000 (24 valve) rebuild schedules on 99 cent dino juice.

Show me the high mileage Cummins on our trucks with Amsoil. I aint found one yet.



Many amsoilers have sold their souls, so to speak, for an oil company and will never realize the big lie until its either too late or too many people have purchased from them. I urge you to look down the road 20 years and see yourselves. Where are you? Still pimping for a few pennies or have you changed for the better?

Which is you?



Judging from the pictures of Bob Riley on the internet I found, I hold little hope for him . He is wearing the Amsoil ball-cap and the Amsoil polo shirt at the same time. His disease is advanced. Is your truck still plastered with stickers? Do you wear Amsoil garb?

Throw it away while there is still time.





Don~



edit- major spelling errors.

 

[Riflesmith]

Gene,

The Technical Department at Clevite is irrelevant. You should have realized that as soon as their unenlightened opinion differed with those of DonM. Shame on you.



Many of us on the side of synthetics AND extended drains are only guilty of objective science. I have a vehicle and used synthetic in it ever since break in. 20,000 miles between changes.

The car has 280,000 miles on it now and refuses to quit. At 255,000 miles a water pump failure caused cracks in the head. I pulled the head and could see the factory cross-hatch honing pattern on the cylinder walls and absolutely no ridge at the top of the cylinders.



But the auto and engine companies don't approve of what I am doing. Did it ever occur to you DonM that these people have a vested interest in seeing their products wear out? The auto and engine companies want their products to last long enough so you will buy from them again. They certainly don't want all of us to be getting such incredible mileage out of their engines. This would cost them sales.



On www.tdiclub.com which deals with Volkswagen diesels, there are alot of individuals running synthetics and extended drains with the usual excellent resluts. With crankcase gases vented to the intake air stream AND exhaust gas recirculation, these little engines place higher demand on engine oil than our Cummins.



Where are all the engine failures, Don? Where are all the worn out camshafts and other parts. According to you there should be plenty because we don't understand the importance of monitoring soot levels.



I submit that people bold enough to use synthetics understand plenty. Synthetics will save their engines from wear and the users will save time, hassle and money.

 

[Sled Puller]

MILLION MILE TRUCK!!!!! MY FAVORITE!!!!





The one that used three,4 or was it 5 transmissions, following the factory specified Lubricant change regiman! CASTROL SYNTORQ, YOUR FLAGSHIP LUBE DON! LMFAO!!!!





Oil analysis is junk science now!!!





Hey , I know, lets make fun of what clothes people wear! And make fun of their businesses!







Don, yer killin me here!

 

[Sled Puller]

Riflesmith,

I am on the phone right now telling Blackstone they are junk science, and Clevite they don't know good bearings when the see one! LOLOL!

 

[Don M]

Riflesmith,



I held out hope for you a few posts back. I had hoped your silence was a glimmer of hope you may have been doing a little research and looking at the topic with objectivity and leaving the emotional color out.



Do you know why you saw the crosshatch pattern? I have seen many crosshatch patterns in cylinder walls. The block should wear much slower than the rings. I have crosshatch patterns in my cylinders too. Many guys do. But the rings and pistons are the parts that wear the most. Ring and cyliner wear is asymetrical.

They dont have the same wear rates.

My buddy has an old monte carlo with over 300,000 miles on it. Only dino juice was used. It still runs ok.

No snake needed to go high miles.



Of course things occur to me. I have been pounding the streets to find out whats really up.



Riflesmith wrote: "With crankcase gases vented to the intake air stream AND exhaust gas recirculation, these little engines place higher demand on engine oil than our Cummins. "



This statement is simply not true. It is a fact that diesel oils can take much more abuse than gasser oils for the most part. Gasser stuff is not nearly as hard on wear rates as diesels. Yes, our Cummins will have recirculated exhaust gas and will put even more stress on it in the near future. I think it all goes down hill next year. Guess who is upgrading oil standards as well?



Once again, I like synthetic oils. they are good. I like oils to have the API minimum stamp of approval too. I do not favor extended oil drains in our engines. Some OEM's will go for it under certain conditions.

I ask you to please read the data and links I have provided to you.



Don~

 

[Don M]

Gene,



My flagship lube was proven to run the lowest temperature.

Lower than the Amsoil.



I welcome your data or something from Clevite or anyone to show me whats up. Prove me wrong Gene. Show me something from Amsoil. I really like how the boxes are Red, White and Blue too. Patriotic. They are now on the environmental soap box as well. I read a post here from someone last night that our "limited natural resources" were being used up. Man, Oh Man.



What intervals do you follow with you truck? Do you go high miles on changes of Amsoil?

Im not meaning the clothing statements to be mean or viscious. They are a joke. Nothing personal. I look at folks with afflictions to get an idea of how bad it is. How far it has advanced. Doctors do the same thing. Blood tests and so forth.

My very limited knowledge of the amsoholic disease begs of me to learn more about it. If i find one guy with more Amsoil garb than another I kinda get the impression the disease is farther than the next guy. Stickers and garb is a sign of a bad case. One fella had the leather jacket, stickered up truck, amsoil t-shirt all proudly displayed for everyone to see. He is commitable in my opinion.

Sold out to the Amsoil cult.



Riflesmith,



I still feel that synthetics have their place. Now that better additive packages have been used to improve dino's, they are closing the gap. The API certification was developed to give people a minimum assurance that the oil they were considering met certain standards and they were testing the oil companies products as proof. Amsoil has elected to forego an audit and not be tested. We have no other assurance the oil is consistant and will be good enough to pass the testing.

Please remember the Cummins will go 300,000 miles in nearly all cases with proper maintenance using dino juice. How many posts do we have with Amsoil doing it better or further? Surely if Amsoil has been around for 30 years somebody has a million mile Dodge truck Cummins. Where are they?

Best I heard from Amsoil is about 265,000 miles.



Please give me some test data and links and shut me up.



Do you guys really think your 20 buck tests of oil is good enough to keep the oil in the pan for the periods you do it for. After removing the tests centers profit, the test is prolly closer to a 5 buck test. Put that up against a million dollar plus test from an OEM that showed to dump the oil sooner.



Please... ... ... ... ...





Don~

 

[Pit Bull]

Apple versus Oranges question

Most of you guys are way beyond me when it comes to diesels and the extended oil changes.



Question - Mercedes and BMW in recent years have started programs with their cars that use a sensor in the car that tells you when to change your oil. Two of my friends, one owns a BMW 740 series and the other Mercedes S500 both have these on their cars. The sensor takes into consideration how you drive and then a light come on when it is time to take it in for an oil change. My friends BMW did not indicate the need for an oil change until over 20,000 miles were on the car. The Mercedes now has 18,000 and the light still has not come on. I am sure the Manufactures are using synthetics. I am sure that someday this technology will filter down to the Dodge trucks and diesels. Does anybody know how this is being done?



By the way I am really enjoying this thread. Feel like I am learning a lot. You guys are all great and seem to know your stuff. Hope none of you hold any hard feeling, just because you disagree. Please keep open minds and maybe we can all learn more from each other. You might of noticed from my posts that I am more of a big picture guy and just use logic as it relates to what I see posted.

Thanks

Denny

 

[willyslover]

"willyslover,



kinda got in your own trap huh?



You did not have to pull it though. "



No Don, I figured why bother. .

 

[Briar Hopper]

My sentiments, exactly, willys, why bother? His manner, methods, and choice of words speak volumes about him and his intentions. It's not about oil. It's about him finding many different ways to phrase the same tired old crap, an attempt to ALWAYS have the LAST WORD.

 

[Don M]

I just read the 409,000 mile oil change test from Amsoil. Its all I can find. The dealers on the TDR have not provided me with a single piece of data yet.

After reading the story I am not too impressed. The guy ran the oil for 409,000 miles without a change. They then tore the engine down for a visual inspection. Can you guys see wear from a visual inspection. Sure big defects but close tolerance wear?

Looking at my service manual for Cummins B series, the tolerance for cylinder out of round is . 0015. Can you guys see out of round visually that tight? No one can. Piston pin diameters of . 0005? No way. The visual inspection is not a good trest at all. Yeah, the engine is not worn to the point it is visually troubling. These large Cummins engines generally go a million miles on regular dino oil.

What have they proven? Notta. Or maybe the engine at its half life is still visually ok looking.

I have seen perfectly good looking stuff discarded because the mic says the part is worn out of tolerance. It looked good, but after a test it was NO GOOD!



Where is my data amsoilers?

Try and find some wear rate indicators that use measuring tools not some visual inspection hogwash. Would some salesmen from Amsoil please call the head office and get some data? Does it exist?



Don~

 

[Don M]

Briar,



please read the words from Cummins. Please!!! I will provide you and others with another link to refute the extended drain nonsense in our engines.



right off the Cummins Southern Plans website.



"Synthetic Oil



Synthetic oil may be used provided they meet performance and chemical requirements. However, the use of synthetic oil does not justify extended oil change intervals. "



Why do you guys still wanna do it?



Two points made by Cummins in one little paragraph. Cummins requires the use of API certified oils and they dont go for extended drain intervals. Simple!



Duhhh!



http://www.cummins-sp.com/new_web/tips/tip.htm



Is it still just my word over Amsoil. Or is it Cummins and nearly every other OEM out there. What part is so hard to understand?



Don~



edit-

Briar, do you sell the oil? Can you get some data from them to shed a little light? Why does every single oil specialist I call have bad things to say about Amsoil? Some, I admit sell other brands. Only a few do. Some just test oil and they cant keep the laughter down. Amsoil was the first to make a synthetic. I have found this out. Now the rest of the industry is passing them up with their own idea. what gives?

 

[Sled Puller]

Originally posted by Don M

Can you guys see wear from a visual inspection. Sure big defects but close tolerance wear? ,



AND:



Try and find some wear rate indicators that use measuring tools not some visual inspection hogwash.

AND:



Do you guys really think your 20 buck tests of oil is good enough to keep the oil in the pan for the periods you do it for. After removing the tests centers profit, the test is prolly closer to a 5 buck test.

AND:



Don~

Those were Dons quotes from this thread.

The following are Dons quotes from the past:









"My last 2 oil analysis showed 2 ppm and 3ppm. Both with roughly 7000 miles on the oil. No silicate levels basically, at all.





K&N has always worked well for me. No oiled down turbine blades. A little anecdotal data: I pulled my cylinder head off the truck a week ago and found the cylinders were still very round. The cross hatch patterns were still there. There was no top ring groove like you find in worn cylinders. The wear was so slight that I was amazed. I have done two oil analysis and found the levels of silicon to be 1 and 2 respectively. 1 and 2 hardly even count. No elevated levels of crap are getting by my filter.













No. DaimlerChrysler and Cummins do not recommend the use of increased flow air filters such as K&N, because they can allow contaminants into the intake that can ruin an engine (scoring the sides of the pistons, etc. )





I run a K&N filter with the pre-filter and love the thing.

I have done two seperate oil analysis's and they both come back perfect.

The first one was 3 PPm of silicon and the second was 2.

Those are smokin good numbers.

I have done two oil tests both with the K&N air filter RE-0880 w prefilter. The numbers were very very low on silicon. 2 and 3 parts per million.



Thats just under 100,000 miles with a K&N and the motor is still very much alive.

Always worked for me, and my oil analysis further prove that point. "







You guys think what you will, but I am done with Don M and his games that waste time.



Have a blast misleading people and talking to yourself, Don.



Thanks for the e-mails, guys.



Gene

 

[Mark_Kendrick]

Don,

Have you torn down many engines? If you had you would know that bearing surfaces in an egine show wear that is visually appearant and the bearings them selves are multi-layer Tn, Pb, and Cu. All of which are different colors. The wear IS visible. If the cross hatch from honing is still there there is less than . 0002" wear. The grove at the top is easily detected by touch and site.



in short, its often not necessary to measure to quantify a result.



The more you say the more you prove your lack of experience and abilty to comprehend and evaluate empirical data.



I'm w/Gene.



I'm done wasting my time and effort on your antics.