Amsoil and the API

[JConley]

Don.

The black soot is soft carbon, and is basically graphite. Graphite is a lubricant, so the idea that black oil is bad is not necessarily the case. True, clean oil is better than black oil, but the soot does have lubrication properties. As long as the oil is bright and shiney, the oil is OK. Judging motor oil by its color is not an accurate measurement of weather it is good or not.

 

[Oil Man]

OK, I have read the entire thread --- Wow it was long. I just have two things to say. The Lubrication Engineers engine oils are API CH-4, SJ licenced and produced under an ISO 9001 Certified Quality System. Let there be no doubt at the quality of the LE oils. Oh one more thing. They are produced at only one location. There seems to be some interest on a certain oil in this thread and I'll not comment on it just that LE is certified for both API and ISO.

 

[Bob Riley]

Wear metals are sub-micron, about the size of the additive package components. Bypass filters do not remove them. If you had particles large enough for bypass filters to remove, you would be buying a new engine soon.



When Gulf Coast and Amsoil were about the only two players in the market for these, people thought up all kinds of strange rumours, like they would filter out the additive packages.



Someone once said "The difference between a new engine and a worn-out one is only a few thousands of an inch".

I have posted that I would like some assurance that what I buy next month is the same as I got last time,

In response to this. Great for you. Seriously. But if I was happy with a product and the next time I went to buy it, they told me, we tweaked the formula and made it even better, but it doesn't cost you anymore, I certainly wouldn't turn it down.



We like to see better quality products in everyday life from detergents to cars, to tvs, but we want the same motor oil from the 50's? Or would you rather they just improved when you approved of it?





I just happened on this thread and it still amazes me of those that spend soo much time putting down a product they have never used. If you don't like a brand of camera, but you have never used it, do you go out of your way to bash it? Probably not.



it's this simple. If you don't want to use it, don't. If you want to "trust" Amsoil as some of you call it, go for it. hundreds of thousands of users can't be all stupid and 30 years would definately show a trend, if one existed. The only trend that continues seems to be the non-users bashing a product with no more information than what in most cases was put in thier head by an oil competitor, or the auto parts store guy who makes a few bucks an hours and has never even seen a bottle of Amsoil.



This post will not stop it, nor will anything else. The fact is Amsoil has grown by over 20% annually for the past few years. It will continue to do so without your support. Amsoil is not for everyone. It doesn't have to be.



Bob

 

[Don M]

Originally posted by JConley

Don.

The black soot is soft carbon, and is basically graphite. Graphite is a lubricant, so the idea that black oil is bad is not necessarily the case. True, clean oil is better than black oil, but the soot does have lubrication properties. As long as the oil is bright and shiney, the oil is OK. Judging motor oil by its color is not an accurate measurement of weather it is good or not.

JConley,

I should have been a tiny bit more clear. Yes judging oil by its color is not "how ya do it" I did not mean to imply that.

I was trying to say that the oil in my pan has, since increased fueling levels turned black as ever and quicker.



I gotta disagree with ya on the statement that soot is a lubricant. It aint so. Elevated soot levels in engine oils cause severe internal damage. The Cummins engineers and developers had to come up with a new oil standard for the soon to be released cooled exhaust gas recirculating engines. This was to deal with higher soot levels from the injection of the gas and the injection timing issue I eluded to earlier. NOX levels are hampered by the later injection timing, but the soot levels increase. The new oil standard is to help suspend the soot better. Soot is actually a heterocyclic hydrocarbon particle. The EPA has corned the diesel engine developers to come to some kinda lower NOX level. The methods used to get the lower levels increase soot output as well. Hince, the newer oils. I said earlier that soot levels are a key in the developement and determination of oil drain intervals. I still stand behind that.



Don~

 

[Sled Puller]

NOW WE'VE DONE IT!



Oil Man came out of hiding, and Riley stopped hot rodding Fords for a few seconds to pipe up!!



LOL!

 

[Big Jon]

If everything else was equal.......

At the risk of adding to an already too long thread that probably does need to die, I'm still gonna throw in my two cents as an observer and someone who was considering using Amsoil after I am certain my rings are fully seated. I should add to that I don't care about extended oil change intervals - - in fact I don't believe in them. I just want the lubricant that provides for the least wear in my engine.



When I look at the wear and oxidation numbers Vaughn posted, I see that Amsoil is neck and neck with Lubrication Engineers dino oil. In fact, I'll call them equal since one has a slightly lower wear rating and the other a slightly higher oxidation resistance rating. The price is pretty close to the same too. They are both somewhat difficult to find (haven't seen these at Costco or Wallmart). Both are fundamentally good oils. One is API certified and one is not. With everything else being equal (or nearly so in my simple mind) I'm going to go with the one that is certified. I call that insurance.



I'm not going to bash Amsoil, although I don't like the way it has historically been marketed. I was a little intrigued with the reasoning on why their full synthetics for diesels are not certified. If they've spent the money for some of their blended stuff, than why not spend it on the other and gain the credibility it would provide? Frankly, the defensive nature of some of the pro-Amsoil posts makes me wonder. You know the old saying, where there's smoke there's... .....



Oh, and Don is right about the soot - - it ain't no precision lubricant and it doesn't belong in the crankcase!



I've already said too much... ..... better duck before I get flamed now.



Jon

 

[Don M]

Look who popped up off the ford-diesel website to post more pro-Amsoil sermons. Its Bob Riley, the Ford counterpart to 'others' on the TDR. He has the same monetary interest in Amsoil sales as the 'others'.

Another amsoholic diseased salesman. He even mentioned detergents and Amsoil in the same thread. It reminded me of Amway again.



Bob Riley wrote: "it's this simple. If you don't want to use it, don't. If you want to "trust" Amsoil as some of you call it, go for it. hundreds of thousands of users can't be all stupid and 30 years would definately show a trend, if one existed. The only trend that continues seems to be the non-users bashing a product with no more information than what in most cases was put in thier head by an oil competitor, or the auto parts store guy who makes a few bucks an hours and has never even seen a bottle of Amsoil.



The same argument can be made by the cigarette smokers who never die from cancer. Hundreds of thousands of users cant be all stupid huh? If the engine problems were to happen from Amsoil it would be locked away in some sealed court document as part of the settlement.

Finally, tweaking the formula of the oil constantly before approval or independent test does nothing for the consumer. How does he know the oil is gonna meet the requirements set forth from manufacturer? He aint.



Don~

 

[fest3er]

Originally posted by Shrimpy

... Again, I believe that you guys in the colder climates are more right than wrong using Amsoil. The lower pour points are more of a concern in the winter. Us guys in the sub-tropics don't let that bother us.

Perhaps 'you guys in the tropics' should ponder how different oils behave in hotter climates. If you are driving in 110F heat, your oil is also getting pretty darn hot. If you are running an oil that loses 15% of its volume to evaporation, you are winding up with an oil that has a completely different viscosity and other changed properties. If you are running an oil with minimum amounts of additives, you could be dangerously low on them by the time you reach oil change time.



Basically, there are many reasons to consider other oils, not just climate, not just an API symbol, not just the word of an argumentive fellow.



I will not argue with DonM. His mind is set in concrete. His Amsoil bypass hoses and connections leaked; thus, all Amsoil products have and cause leaks. Amsoil is not API certified; thus it is junk and will cause equipment failures and will cause warranties to be voided. Amsoil has legal representation; therefore they are involved in many lawsuits. His logic escapes me. Or him. I haven't figured out which, as yet. But he is entitled to express his opinions, as are the rest of us.



Anyone who has read this far should have noted that I have not pushed Amsoil products, nor have I have not extolled their virtues, even though I am an Amsoil dealer.



The best thing we could do is drop this thread; it is counter-productive. Let it die with at least a shred of dignity.



Fest3er

 

[Bob Riley]

Jon, you have said nothing to get flamed over. With that said, good luck with your decision. LE makes a good oil.



As far as Amsoil spending the money, they explained the reason very clearly. As much as I hate to agree with Gene on anything he said it best a few pages ago. "some people don't really want an answer" That's why it doesn't pay to argue about it. Move on, there are plenty of oils and from this end, there are plenty of customers.



Bob

 

[Diesel Freak]

oops, gotta go make some more popcorn

 

[Don M]

Fast3er,



you logic does not escape me. You are a dealer and will benefit from the sale of Amsoil. Simple, Simple.

Not only did my hoses leak. The filter base leaked. The main seal now leaks. The transfer case leaks too. All after using Amsoil products. Yippy for me huh? another sucker.



So far MGM, Bob Riley, Fast3er, amsoilman, lschultz have come out to defend the product. Guess what... they are all dealers. Only a few non-dealers posted in defense of the non API rated oil.

The original post was to get info on why Amsoil does not have the certificatoin from the API and to let everyone who might have been tricked (like I was) from Amsoils use of the "meets API specs" on the bottle or sales brochures. My personal experiences were as well posted on my leaks and by-pass filter troubles. All I got was slammed by 5 dealers of Amsoil. One of them told me lies about drain intervals and "assured me". One told me to install my filters correctly. Without ever considering the filter base may be warped or improperly machined/cast or whatever. They seem to be trained from the get-go to deny accountablity for their products.



I see many of the Amsoil salesmen want to drop the thread. Why is this? Could it be that it is making them slightly uncomfortable?



1. Funny Marketing Schemes

2. No API certificatoin

3. Constantly changing formulas (by Amsoils own admission)

4. Less than understanding dealers from a customers point of view

5. Tricky wording on the bottles like "meets API specs"

6. Manufacturers not including them in their approved oils list

7. Dealers that have made disingenuous statements to me here on the TDR.



Don~

 

[JConley]

Remember Arco Graphite? Graphite is soft carbon. I am not going to defend that engine byproducts are good, but there is some lubrication properties to the soot. Not as much has the oil it displaces, but some. My source for this information is a petrochemical engineer that used to make the base product for Mobile 1.

 

[Don M]

Originally posted by JConley

Remember Arco Graphite? Graphite is soft carbon. I am not going to defend that engine byproducts are good, but there is some lubrication properties to the soot. Not as much has the oil it displaces, but some. My source for this information is a petrochemical engineer that used to make the base product for Mobile 1.

I do agree that graphite has some lubricating properties, but soot is not graphite and oils have been developed to combat soot levels. Going by that... we could argue that water is a lubricant too. Not much, but a lubricant.



Not a flame JConley. I enjoy your input.



After talking to few more people I am of the opinion that JConley and I were both partly correct about the soot. The earlier engines that used lower injection pressures to inject the fuel did make a much softer soot.

Todays engines like the Cummins uses higher injection pressure and the fuel atomization is much smaller and has a much better burn rate of the smaller droplet. Oxygen could not penetrate the larger droplets in the core to completly burn as well in the older engines This made the soft soot he was speaking of. The high pressure systems of today get more oxygen to the fuel thus burn it better. This leads to a soot particle that is harder, smaller and much more abrasive.



Don~

 

[Bob Riley]

Don, who else would you expect to have enough knowlege to defend it? I don't advertise for Amsoil on this site. I make no money if Gene or any other dealer sells a bottle of oil. I came in simply cause, oh well, guess I'm not sure why. These topics always end the same. It won't change my opinion of the product. If we really wanted it to drop, the best thing we could do was drop it and not respond. Doesn't look like we are doing anything to let this thing fall down the page.

Like I said, Amsoil is not for everyone. If you just want to argue, then there's not much I can say to help you.



Have a good one.



Bob

 

[Don M]

Argue, Im not arguing with you. Im stating facts and debating a topic about Amsoil and the lack of API certification and the fact that several manufacturers will not add them to their lists of approved engine oils. DC and dare I say Ford say to use an API approved oil. DC goes so far as to say... "oils not API approved or certified should not be used". How do you defend that?

Meets API specs is just an opinion that belongs to Amsoil... not certified by the API. An opinion Bob. The test was never graded by the teacher. Amsoil gave itself an A+.



All awile I get ridiculed, told to properly install filters, lied to, and still have no clear answer as to why Amsoil wont submit the oil to the API.

This would give its customers a solid, second, data proven assurance that Amsoil can meet certain criteria and stay that way. The specifications for compliance are known in advance. Its not a closed book test. Amsoil has chosen to use the wording "meets API specs" have they not? They must know potential or unsuspecting customers would read this wording yes? They must feel the public generally holds the opinion that the API is kinda like UL. Independant. Its the first thing you see on the back of the bottle in RED ink. "meets API specs"



While on the subject about automobile manufacturers and the fact that most wont allow Amsoil to be used... why does it never end up as a factory fill for them either? They aint in no Fords. They aint in no Chebbys. They aint in no Cummins and MACK says you better not put them in theirs either.



Don~

 

[danandamy]

DIE I SAID DIE DIE DIE

 

[Power Wagon]

Originally posted by danandme

DIE I SAID DIE DIE DIE

I agree.



Dan, stop posting your silly messages

 

[danandamy]

WHAT?! A two line post from PW?!

 

[buddys06]

Wait, what ,is it over? Don't make me come in here. Actually I think your flame war over oil was pretty mild compared to the dakota site I use to frequent, man am I glad I don't have to go back there anymore! Why is oil such a touchy subject?

 

[Sled Puller]

Originally posted by Don M













1. Funny Marketing Schemes EXCELLENT MARKETING, BOB MENTIONED 20% GROWTH EACH YEAR.



2. No API certificatoin MEETS OR EXCEEDS THE SPECS



3. Constantly changing formulas (by Amsoils own admission) KEEPS PRODUCTS STATE OF THE ART, DOES NOT LOCK THEM INTO OLD FORMULAS.



4. Less than understanding dealers from a customers point of view. I OFFERED YOUR MONEY BACK, AND I DID NOT EVEN SELL IT TO YOU. DID YOU EVER CHECK WITH AMSOIL?

ASK ANY OF MY CUSTOMERS HOW I TREAT THEM.

5. Tricky wording on the bottles like "meets API specs" PLAIN ENGLISH, IT DOES MEET THEM

6. Manufacturers not including them in their approved oils list HOW MANY OTHER COMPANIES ARE NOT ON THE "LISTS"? PROVES NOTHING

7. Dealers that have made disingenuous statements to me here on the TDR.

NOBODY HAS SAID ANYTHING THEY DID NOT BELIEVE. PEOPLE MAKE MISTAKES IN TYPING, OR YOU MISUNDERSTOOD.



Don~

Once again, the questions are answered.



Don, most users are scared to post about their use of any product, because of threads like these.



Gene