Amsoil and the API

[HC]

Good summary SlyBones. The only thing I would say different is that if you KNOW the bypass is removing some of the wear metals, and you look at RATE of metals increase instead of the Absolute value, then I think you can still predict pending failures. I believe that is why most of the companies ask you what type of filtration is being used on their sample submittal forms - so that they can correctly interpret the data.



I agree 200% with the other stuff you said about full flow and bypass filters!

 

[SlyBones]

Cool, add one more thing to the list of items I learned.

 

[Don M]

HC,



the guy had a failure 2100 miles into his oil that was earlier analyzed as fine. It has a total of 12,100 miles on it.

The sludge was formed in the 2100 mile envelope it appears.



I was not aware the WIX filters were a warranty voiding item. I have used WIX and Donaldson stuff alot. If Dodge/Cummins is saying not to use the filter... I guess I gotta change my mind.

I, through the years have learned to take my medicine. I was on the TDR just a few months ago saying that Amsoil was good to use and I was happy to not be changing my oil all the time and doing extended oil drains w/analysis. I was wrong and it was a hard pill to swallow, but I changed my mind. The same will apply in the filter area too. If it is not the proper filter to use, the filters I have purchased will be returned. I currently have a Mobil 1 filter and if is not the correct one... I'll pull it too. The best thing to do when ya mess up is to change the improper behavior and move on. I may come of as abrasive to some folks. The intention is not to wag a finger at anyone. The point of all this is not to abuse anyone, but rather to get people to critically examine their actions. Many things sound good on paper, but have a zero batting average in real life.

The manufactures make it easy for anyone who can walk and chew gum simultaneously what oil to use and when to change it.

When you consider all of the above posts, it seems to me, "change the stuff and use the right stuff" wins hands down over mumbo-jumbo, high-tech nightmare of not doing it. Fortunately, we are not children and we can all understand this stuff. Science and technology certainly has its place, but sometimes practicality and common sense is a better deal all the way around.



On another note, is the Amsoil filter approved for the Dodge/Cummins?



Don~



-stay tuned

 

[Don M]

HC,



The Amsoil filter is NOT approved for use on our trucks/engines.

Only the ones below... .



Part Number Manufacturer

05016547--AC Mopar

LF3894-----Fleetguard Stratopore

LF3552-----Fleetguard Microglass

LF3949-----Fleetguard Cellulose

3937695---Cummins Cellulose

FL896-------MotorCraft Cellulose

L45335-----Purolator Cellulose

PF1070-----AC Delco Cellulose





From the text of the TSB. "If you choose to use another filter that is not on the list, DC will (justifiably) make you pay for repairs if a piston cooling nozzle becomes clogged by a piece of filter material"



If the daul by-pass filter from Amsoil uses the non-approved filter, the rule would still apply. So, the use of the daul by-pass will void a warranty as well.



Amsoilers... . what you say? let me hear what you have to tell me now.



Don~

 

[HC]

I may come of as abrasive to some folks...

The manufactures make it easy for anyone who can walk and chew gum simultaneously what oil to use and when to change it...

Fortunately, we are not children and we can all understand this stuff.

On another note, is the Amsoil filter approved for the Dodge/Cummins? [and later]

HC,

The Amsoil filter is NOT approved for use on our trucks/engines.

Abrasive? Interested in why some think that? Are you sure it's accidental, not intentional? Earlier you asked me "do you actually believe... " Stop and think a few seconds. "Why are you willing to take a chance on such an expensive engine?" is open ended and leaves some room for sharing of ideas. "Do you actually believe... " lets me know up front you don't respect my opinion unless it is the same as yours. I almost didn't answer you at all on that one. The phrase "anyone who can walk and chew gum", as used above, again sends a clear message about what you think of anyone who disagrees with your current position, even if it is the same as your previous position. And I think that you implied those of us who are not children will read the references you provided, and reach exactly the same conclusions. Gosh, to be intelligent, I not only have to agree with you, I have to change my mind whenever you do. I never said Amsoil filters were approved, nor did I recommend Amsoil filters in this thread. Bypass filters yes, any specific brand, no. (Choose carefully, and use the search feature, to pick your brand. ) I was sharing info about Wix, which you previously supported, and trying to learn why on the oil issue you were so "by the book" when apparently on several other issues you were willing to be out on the same limb with other BOMBER's. The issue on filters is identical to the API certification issue, and has been hashed out on other threads not that long ago, no need to repeat that one again in this thread. OK, OK, to save folks the search time: Some strongly believe the Amsoil filter is better than the OEM or Fleetguard choices and use it even though they know it is unapproved because they believe it is better; others follow the TSB recommendations.



By the way, since anyone who can walk and chew gum will easily see that they should do what the manufacturer says, and since you say you're going to dump the Mobil 1 filter now that you have learned it is not approved, have you decided yet whether to remove the fueling mods and return to stock?



I think really there are two main issues here; you had (or noticed) seal leaks after switching to Amsoil (I don't believe you ever claimed wear or damage to the engine), and, you didn't like the dual bypass set-up because that leaked too unless you babied it. So now, you're pounding the pavement looking for anyone else with bad experiences, and you found at least one in the guy with the gasket leak / warranty claim gone bad. Amsoil wouldn't pay for new seals on a truck that had enough miles that the seals were probably beginning to leak anyway, and now it's a lot more about evening the perceived score with Amsoil than about helping all of us to see the light. You should have made your first two points up front with the first post; many are reading this thread but a lot of others will see the length and move on without reading, or after reading only the first few posts. I wonder how many reading my words now even remember that you had a bad experience with the dual remote, too? I also wonder about your leaks - my engine began seeping oil, and dripping the stuff from the blowby bottle, long before I switched to synthetic. How much of your experience was just your own increased awareness in looking for leaks after the dual bypass acted up? Did you let someone else change the oil under warranty, and then start crawling under the truck more after switching? I ask only because I think most folks would be surprised at how much oil is on and around these engines at 50k -I don't think this "industrial" engine is as tight as some of my other engines, which stayed dry past 100k. Did you go from an occassional drip to 6" diameter spots on the driveway? Was your rear diff completely dry and dusty before, with 100k (you did say you were out of warranty, right?) and then start pouring it out as soon as you switched? What products were you using before the switch, and how many miles when you switched? Did your "heavy fueling mods" go in at the same time as your Amsoil? 20 pages of postings, and there's still a lot I don't know about your case. And don't take this wrong, but are you really that sure that your seals wouldn't have done the same thing if you had switched to API-certified Delvac 1 under exact same circumstances?



Maybe it's just me, but I think you should have just shared the facts of your specific case or any others you had details on, right up front. Instead, you've made too many logical jumps - calling oil analysis junk science, and extolling the value of practicality and common sense over Science and technology, shortly after proclaiming that the millions spent in R&D by manufacturers was a primary reason for following their recommendations to the letter. I'm going to drop the issue that you've thrown some insults, because there were probably some thrown at you, too, and I really don't care who started it.



Suggestion: You mentioned you had many private e-mails of support; why don't you start a couple of polls? The poll feature allows folks to "vote" without posting if they so desire. One might be: Amsoil users, how many miles when you switched, and did you notice new or increased leaks after switching? Categories would then be <50k no leaks, <50k leaks, 50 to 100k no leaks, etc. Better yet, include categories for "Amsoil users" and "API certified synthetic users". If enough answer and the Amsoil numbers are significantly different than for other synthetics that are API certified, then you'll have something of great interest. Another poll could be for bypass filter users. Categories would be "Dual remote, have it, would do it again", "have it, wish I had chosen another type/brand", "had it, removed it", etc. Similar cateories for other common bypass options - Frantz, OilGuard, Puradyne, Fleetguard, Gulf Coast, Spinner, come to mind. And don't forget to include "no bypass".

 

[Don M]

HC,



ok, your feelings are hurt. Sorry. That was not my intention.

The last few post have contained a bit too much emotional stuff. After reading them I still see some value because they have shown me and others that the Asmoil oil filters and daul by-pass filters are not approved by the manufacturer,as well as other filters.

Now I see the oil, filters, and the extended drains are all not approved. I just cant see why the risk involved is worth it. The oil filter risk seems to be for everyone, not just guys in warranty. After reading the Technical Service Bulletin from Dodge I go away with the opinion that cetain filters have caused many failures.

The dealers must be aware of the failures and the buletin as well. If a guy pulls into his dealer with these unapproved filters or daul by-pass stuff he could very well be denied warranty.



The fueling mods are staying on the truck. Im outta warranty. The filters go away because they could break up and cause engine damage.



Don~

 

[Don M]

HC,



I cant read your post and edit at the same time so started a new post. The answer to your question is: Yes, I did crawl around under my truck all the time. 6 months or so ago I installed a Southbend clutch to hold the power. The truck was nice a dry in the transfer case area. When I removed the T-case I drained and filled it with the universal ATF from Amsoil. The last few eeks I have noticed a pretty good oil leak. I change my own oil and get under the truck a bunch. I installed and welded up my own 4" exhaust. I am under the truck alot more than most guys are.

As I said before, the truck was dry before the Asmoil went in it.

Now it leaks. I posted text from other Amsoil users about leaks. I posted text from an Amsoil dealer about his leaks and his belief the oil caused them.

The poll thingee is kinda tough to really know whats up with Amsoil products in general. Many guys dont get on the board as much. Our former leader Bill Clinton sure liked the polls. I really dont myself.



Don~

 

[Pit Bull]

I might be a good one to use as a test case. I use Rotella T 15w40 with the Dodge filter changed every 5,000 miles all done by the dealer. My truck is a daily driver, no hauling or pulling and most of my miles are highway not heavy traffic ( I also plu my truck in nytime it will get below 40 degrees). My truck is stock. I know I am boring and you will ask why does this guy own a Dodge CTD. I love the looks of the truck and the technology of the Cummins (and the sound ). I'll keep you all posted as the miles accumulatedand problems encountered. We will see how far it goes with no oil or filter related problems. I predict that I will be to old to drive before I have an oil or filter related problem. I have 40K miles on the truck now and run about 20K per year. At this rate when I am 82 years old I should have 640,000 miles on the truck. Thats 30 years from now. On second thought, maybe I won't be a good test case. By then most of us will be to old to care

 

[HC]

ok, your feelings are hurt. Sorry. That was not my intention.

No hurt feelings here. Are you sure you're not doing any of this on purpose? (Look, I made Billy cry - No you didn't - Yes I did - No you didn't. ) Geeesh. Homey don't play that game.



To your credit, you have revised some of those positions as the discussion went on and additional information was provided. Overall, I think you are mostly responding to a couple of bad experiences, and just trying to share those experiences without being shouted down. But now the tidbits of new information are buried so far down that most will never see them, and I commented on that too.



Thanks for the other info added to the story.



Big Toy, you're not boring, you're just happy with your truck, and that's OK. If I averaged 20k per year, there's a good chance I'd choose Delo at 5k intervals.

 

[Pit Bull]

Don M

Why don't you take the conclusions from this thread and paraphrase them in a new thread. I think it might be enlightening, to the general membership and take out all of the emotional stuff. Then we might get some additional input from members that were scaried off by the size of this thread. Just a thought.

 

[Diesel Freak]

Originally posted by NVR FNSH

Another question from the King of Questions - sorry Don, I think I've got you beat



Are any of you doing extended drain intervals having the oil (regardless of brand) analyzed prior to installation as a control sample? Would (or does this) that mfg is changing it's recipes?



Brian

That is the best Idea I have seen yet.



I think I will do just that.



Four random samples taken from off the shelf over the course of one year. Record the batch numbers, and sent off the sample to be analyzed. I have may have access to an atomic spectrometer.



Use a heated centrifuge spin the sample at 10K rpm at 200F for 12 hours. Sample and test each stratified layer to determine it's chemical make up. This should give us an idea of the base stocks used, and what is in the additive packages and their quantities per the 10cc samples.



I do not have a centrifuge. The Atomic Spectrometer is where my dad works, and uses an Inductively Coupled Plasma. I have to ask him if it is possible to use it, and if they have the appropriate spectra programmed into the computer for the trace elements that one would expect to find in lube oil.



We could get it down to the Gnats Butt.





Time to Reverse Engineer AMSOIL!



OOPs I think I just stepped in it.

 

[RACE427]

By-pass filters

I have been using by-pass oil filters for the past 18 yrs. and I would not think of running an engine without one. By-pass filters hold on to impurities that normal engine oil filters just let go by them. How in the world can an extra filter ever harm your engine? This is one example where more is better!!! You can never have too much oil by-pass filtration!!!!



Hastings manufactures Amsoil filters. Hastings manufactures the best oil filters in the industry and has done so for many years!! What you buy at the local Auto store and discount mass market stores is junk!!! DIY always think they know more and what is best, but, it pays to listen to your mechanic, if you have one!!! Did not say dealer, I said mechanic. Hope this helps!!

 

[Pit Bull]

Re: By-pass filters

Originally posted by TGreco



DIY always think they know more and what is best, but, it pays to listen to your mechanic, if you have one!!! Did not say dealer, I said mechanic. Hope this helps!!

Isn't that kinda like asking a carpenter, why/how a building is designed. I think you would want to ask the architect



With my Dodge CTD, I want to follow what the manufacture recommends. The people that spent all of that money engineering and designing the truck and engine. Not the guy who is paid to turn the wrench. Let me know if my logic is wrong.

 

[Don M]

TGreco,



Im glad you are having good luck with your by-pass filter. I gotta say, I had nothing but troubles with mine.



On another note: I crawled around under my truck today when changing the oil filter to the Fleetguard from the Mobil 1.

I found another dern leak. In the rear main seal. I had the transmission and transfer case out about 5 or 6 months ago to change my clutch out. The seal was dry as a bone.

Now it is leaking pretty good. I dont know what the heck is going on here, but I am gonna find out.



Don~



-make it six now

 

[Hammer]

Well like I said before Don,you have crossed the line,,That line,like it or not,is the one that separates reality and your own little world you occupy,,One would only have to say the only reason you are continuing here is to pad your own post totals,but,I believe myself its your own way to try and hide a mistake you made and will not admit it,,See when you read thru all your"internet research" and get to the bottom line,you have a hard time admiting you made a mistake somewhere else and it has caused some of the problems you are claiming here that this "oil" caused,,Sloppy work and lack of research can and will lead to problems like you have now(i. e. -oil leaks,low power numbers for the money spent)and your poor attitude with these "oil" users and their"product",,It makes no difference to you that your continued bashing has left you all alone and with no other info to back up your claim(or your problems) and talking in circles so much you do not even know what you have said,,IF and I'll say it AGAIN,If this "oil" has you so up in arms WHY USE IT???,,Just because we(other users)do not have the "test" info you seek to please you,but,rather would rely on our real world tests for our opinions you look down upon us like trailer park trash,,I have seen the benefits first hand on its("the oil") protection first hand and all you can do is try to refute it with computer research and bogus info I care nothing about,,While you claim to "defend''the "stock"owners all I can see is your continued blinding of them by not allowing them to see both sides of the story,you only want them to see your side and flame the others that try to point out your incorrect data,,All you can do then is come back to the "not api" certified data and Since the majority of these owners here are not stock and could give a rats rear about warranty I'd bet that "not api" certified will not matter to them either,just plain old good protection,,A few other things and I'll leave so I do not to your post total either,,A few hundred posts earlier you said about your transfer case leaking and your going back to "dino oil" well my son that there IS a violiation of factory warranty,see,it has Mopar +3 in it WHICH is synthetic,from the factory,,So what is it Don,you sure you want to stand by the "oil" causing the leak or could it be normal wear or excessive abuse and temps????,,Also,If your so harsh on this product and it problems ARE YOU GOING TO DO THIS LATER IN MORE DEPTH FOR THOSE PRODUCTS AND VENDORS THAT CAUSED THE MEARE 400 HP YOU PUT OUT at a recent dyno meet??,,See a HEAVILY fueled truck should make more smack than that,your combo to me seems more off than you'll admit and could this be the cause of the "mysterious" leaks you complain about??,,There are more than a few owners that have made near what your "heavily fueled" combo made power wise in a properly setup stock configuration,,WHAT,you don't believe me cause it not on paper,afraid to say they are and the owners have showed it here and other boards that they frequent,,Seems like over 335hp with stock parts was quoted and NO AFTERMARKET equipment,,Again,research,not squabbleing,about products will get the help and power you seek,,Expensive parts may help but in some cases are not needed,just some dyno time with the combo(be it engine or chassis time),,Extended drain intervals as others have said is a owners decision and not for you to dictate,let them do their proper anyalsis and decide what road to go down,,Bottom line is this... IF YOU DO NOT LIKE IT. DON'T USE IT... ... If you'd ever like to see one of our race pieces after a normal maintence teardown,I'd welcome you come up and look them over I have nothing to hide,,I'd even set it up so you could pull her from the frame rails after a Friday,Saturday and Sunday weekend of hard work and let you do your own research on it,,I will not even touch a wrench,matter of fact I'll sit in a chair and watch you so I do not interfere with your fact finding mission,,Balls in your court pal,those have offered to help you and you refuse and those offer to allow you "real world proof' of the product,you decide,,Till then,don't waste our time... ...

 

[Don M]

Hammer,



I thought we were discussing Asmoil and NO API cert, leaking seals and gaskets, soot loading and oil changes, oil filters and the correct ones to use, etc.



Where did my lack of tuning on hot-rod diesels come into play? Yes, I am new to performance diesel engines. I have a low power problem as well (if you call 400 hp low). The problem is, my education is not high enough on how to make one make a bunch of power. I can assure you I intend and will learn about them and get the truck running the way I want it to.



The difference in the "others" that make more power and me is party luck and mostly education. I just need to learn a bit more and I will surprise a few people.



I may "come back to the not API certified" oil because that is what the thread is about. NOT my lack of knowledge on hot-rod Cummins engines. Please get me some tests on Amsoil. Anything. Some kinda engine test I can read and discern. Not stuff from a dirt track car.



Don~



postscript- what happened to the red text?

 

[drawson]

Don, You mean like this???



There has been some good info on this thread, but now we are getting out of hand.



CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG.

 

[Briar Hopper]

Good luck getting any help now, Don, to get your HP up above where it is. I doubt that any vendor in his right mind is going to want to take the chance of dealing with you. Let alone any TDR member that has a modicum of common sense.

Gonna do it yourself? That's a monumental task, given the methods, actions, and attitudes you've shown here.

You remind me of the Terminator, the robot in the movie of the same name, played by Arnold Schwarzenegger. You keep on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on... ... . beyond all human logic and reason.

Tact, grace, and courtesy are valuable character traits instilled in most of us by our parents or lessons in life. You exhibit none of these in your horribly stubborn insistence on continuing this thread. How pitiful.

 

[Don M]

Briar, are you a dealer too? Do you sell amsoil?



Don~

 

[NVR FNSH]

Originally posted by Hammer

Well like I said before Don,you have crossed the line,,That line,like it or not,is the one that separates reality and your own little world you occupy,,One would only have to say the only reason you are continuing here is to pad your own post totals,but,I believe myself its your own way to try and hide a mistake you made and will not admit it,,See when you read thru all your"internet research" and get to the bottom line,you have a hard time admiting you made a mistake somewhere else and it has caused some of the problems you are claiming here that this "oil" caused,,Sloppy work and lack of research can and will lead to problems like you have now(i. e. -oil leaks,low power numbers for the money spent)and your poor attitude with these "oil" users and their"product",,It makes no difference to you that your continued bashing has left you all alone and with no other info to back up your claim(or your problems) and talking in circles so much you do not even know what you have said,,IF and I'll say it AGAIN,If this "oil" has you so up in arms WHY USE IT???,,Just because we(other users)do not have the "test" info you seek to please you,but,rather would rely on our real world tests for our opinions you look down upon us like trailer park trash,,I have seen the benefits first hand on its("the oil") protection first hand and all you can do is try to refute it with computer research and bogus info I care nothing about,,While you claim to "defend''the "stock"owners all I can see is your continued blinding of them by not allowing them to see both sides of the story,you only want them to see your side and flame the others that try to point out your incorrect data,,All you can do then is come back to the "not api" certified data and Since the majority of these owners here are not stock and could give a rats rear about warranty I'd bet that "not api" certified will not matter to them either,just plain old good protection,,A few other things and I'll leave so I do not to your post total either,,A few hundred posts earlier you said about your transfer case leaking and your going back to "dino oil" well my son that there IS a violiation of factory warranty,see,it has Mopar +3 in it WHICH is synthetic,from the factory,,So what is it Don,you sure you want to stand by the "oil" causing the leak or could it be normal wear or excessive abuse and temps????,,Also,If your so harsh on this product and it problems ARE YOU GOING TO DO THIS LATER IN MORE DEPTH FOR THOSE PRODUCTS AND VENDORS THAT CAUSED THE MEARE 400 HP YOU PUT OUT at a recent dyno meet??,,See a HEAVILY fueled truck should make more smack than that,your combo to me seems more off than you'll admit and could this be the cause of the "mysterious" leaks you complain about??,,There are more than a few owners that have made near what your "heavily fueled" combo made power wise in a properly setup stock configuration,,WHAT,you don't believe me cause it not on paper,afraid to say they are and the owners have showed it here and other boards that they frequent,,Seems like over 335hp with stock parts was quoted and NO AFTERMARKET equipment,,Again,research,not squabbleing,about products will get the help and power you seek,,Expensive parts may help but in some cases are not needed,just some dyno time with the combo(be it engine or chassis time),,Extended drain intervals as others have said is a owners decision and not for you to dictate,let them do their proper anyalsis and decide what road to go down,,Bottom line is this... IF YOU DO NOT LIKE IT. DON'T USE IT... ... If you'd ever like to see one of our race pieces after a normal maintence teardown,I'd welcome you come up and look them over I have nothing to hide,,I'd even set it up so you could pull her from the frame rails after a Friday,Saturday and Sunday weekend of hard work and let you do your own research on it,,I will not even touch a wrench,matter of fact I'll sit in a chair and watch you so I do not interfere with your fact finding mission,,Balls in your court pal,those have offered to help you and you refuse and those offer to allow you "real world proof' of the product,you decide,,Till then,don't waste our time... ...

?????? where did this come from? Can I ask a favor? Break it up into paragraphs to make it easier to read.



335HP with stock, not after market, parts? How much smoke? I'd like to see this. Does stock mean 'stock Cummins', not stock ISB or 12V as installed in a Dodge Pickup?



Brian