Anatomy of a Frantz toilet paper bypass oil filter

[Gary - K7GLD]

I certainly agree that the Frantz TP is a bit too small for the tight fit into the canister I personally prefer - and the outer wrap of the blue paper shop towels seems to be working well. I take 2 sections of those shop towels, still in one connected piece, and then cut them in half length-wise - making one relatively narrow strip. I then measure off the width of the TP roll, and carefully fold the extra width of material down over the larger portion. This makes about a 3/4 inch double thickness on one side of the strip.



THEN, I carefully wrap that around the new TP roll - this creates a slightly larger diameter at what I will install as the top of the fresh cartridge. My goal in doing this, besides getting an overall tighter fit, is to slightly increase the top diameter of the roll to seal better and prevent oil flow down the outside of the cartridge between it and the canister wall.



Been doing this the last couple of changes, and the condition of the old cartridges when removed is very nice and smooth, no distortion, and looks like the added outer wraps are getting the job done. I had just bought about 8 new rolls of the Frantz stuff to experiment with, and compare with the Scott - and then a member here offered me some rolls he no longer needed at an attractive price - so I have a pretty good supply to work thru! :-laf

 

[Scardog]

I'd like to see your "Spectrochemical Analysis".



Wayne

I will try this again



Flash Point is a little low, anyone with any ideas here?

 

[PRout]

Man I love it when people post these things. . Scardog, it looks like your motor is pretty happy with the Mobile 1. Low numbers all the way around. . The only thing I would want to watch is the fuel%. . Not sure where the threshold of raising the flag on a leaky injector would be and your 1% is low, I would want to make sure it doesnt creep up there much more. . Just my opinion. It is nothing to be alarmed about at this point. Thanks for sharing the results.

Edited: Scardog, Im curious to find out what air cleaner you are using. . Is it stock?

 

[Grieke]

I certainly agree that the Frantz TP is a bit too small for the tight fit into the canister I personally prefer - and the outer wrap of the blue paper shop towels seems to be working well. I take 2 sections of those shop towels, still in one connected piece, and then cut them in half length-wise - making one relatively narrow strip. I then measure off the width of the TP roll, and carefully fold the extra width of material down over the larger portion. This makes about a 3/4 inch double thickness on one side of the strip.



THEN, I carefully wrap that around the new TP roll - this creates a slightly larger diameter at what I will install as the top of the fresh cartridge. My goal in doing this, besides getting an overall tighter fit, is to slightly increase the top diameter of the roll to seal better and prevent oil flow down the outside of the cartridge between it and the canister wall.



Been doing this the last couple of changes, and the condition of the old cartridges when removed is very nice and smooth, no distortion, and looks like the added outer wraps are getting the job done. I had just bought about 8 new rolls of the Frantz stuff to experiment with, and compare with the Scott - and then a member here offered me some rolls he no longer needed at an attractive price - so I have a pretty good supply to work thru! :-laf

As I indicated in my first post, mine where NOT new old stock. What is someone to do if you can't trust OEM anymore. I will try the blue shop towel modification with my two remaining OEM tp rolls.

After that, should I purchase more OEM and modify, or would I be better of to track down Scott's 1000?

Thanks again, Gerhard.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

As I indicated in my first post, mine where NOT new old stock. What is someone to do if you can't trust OEM anymore. I will try the blue shop towel modification with my two remaining OEM tp rolls.

After that, should I purchase more OEM and modify, or would I be better of to track down Scott's 1000?

Thanks again, Gerhard.

My earlier quoted comment was general in nature (not aimed specifically at you), mostly aimed at earlier similar comments on occasional tendency of looser wound rolls to stay on the filter center post when the canister is removed.



But, I've used the "factory installed" Frantz TP in several new installations with OLD filters - been in garages and on the shelves in the OEM boxes for YEARS, with no problems, so wouldn't expect issues with newer stuff.



One reason I wanted to try the Frantz supplied rolls, is their greater density, and the stronger center core that resists deforming or crushing when outer wraps are added and the resulting cartridge is a tighter fit into the canister.



Added to that, was earlier comments that it appeared Scott was modifying their production process, and MIGHT affect the performance of their TP as used in our oil filtering applications - dunno if that is true or not, haven't wandered down the TP section of the store lately - but the Frantz stuff SHOULD be about the best overall quality out there for filtering performance.

 

[PRout]

I take 2 sections of those shop towels, still in one connected piece, and then cut them in half length-wise - making one relatively narrow strip. I then measure off the width of the TP roll, and carefully fold the extra width of material down over the larger portion. This makes about a 3/4 inch double thickness on one side of the strip.

THEN, I carefully wrap that around the new TP roll - this creates a slightly larger diameter at what I will install as the top of the fresh cartridge. My goal in doing this, besides getting an overall tighter fit, is to slightly increase the top diameter of the roll to seal better and prevent oil flow down the outside of the cartridge between it and the canister wall.

Been doing this the last couple of changes, and the condition of the old cartridges when removed is very nice and smooth, no distortion, and looks like the added outer wraps are getting the job done.

Thanks again Gary. Im going to give this a shot also. Another great idea...

 

[Scardog]

Man I love it when people post these things. . Scardog, it looks like your motor is pretty happy with the Mobile 1. Low numbers all the way around. . The only thing I would want to watch is the fuel%. . Not sure where the threshold of raising the flag on a leaky injector would be and your 1% is low, I would want to make sure it doesnt creep up there much more. . Just my opinion. It is nothing to be alarmed about at this point. Thanks for sharing the results.



Edited: Scardog, Im curious to find out what air cleaner you are using. . Is it stock?

PRout, you guessed it I am using the stock Mopar Air Filter with pre-filter and Fleetguard Stratapore full flow oil filter.

 

[amsoilman]

I just received my latest UOA results if anyone is interested.

Oil now has 60,000 miles without draining, truck has 68,500 miles total.



Iron:47

Chromium:2

Lead:8

Tin:0

Aluminum:13

Silicon:25

Magnesium:35

Phosphorous:1181

Zinc:1159

Fuel %:<1

Vis@100 C:15. 69

Water %:0

Soot/Solids:0. 7 %wt

TBN:5. 66

Oxid:11. 0

Nitr: 12. 0



Oil added in 60,000 miles 4 Qts.



REMARKS: No Corrective Action Required. Oil is suitable for continued use. Resample at next regular interval.



Wayne

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

I just received my latest UOA results if anyone is interested.

Oil now has 60,000 miles without draining, truck has 68,500 miles total.



Iron:47

Chromium:2

Lead:8

Tin:0

Aluminum:13

Silicon:25

Magnesium:35

Phosphorous:1181

Zinc:1159

Fuel %:<1

Vis@100 C:15. 69

Water %:0

Soot/Solids:0. 7 %wt

TBN:5. 66

Oxid:11. 0

Nitr: 12. 0



Oil added in 60,000 miles 4 Qts.



REMARKS: No Corrective Action Required. Oil is suitable for continued use. Resample at next regular interval.



Wayne

Wayne, I'll publicly make you a deal:



Next analysis point, send your sample to your usual lab - undoubtedly Oil Analyzers - and also send ME a similar sample. I'll send it to Blackstone, have the usual analysis as well as a particle count TAN and TBN done, and pay the cost, and post results on TDR - OK?

 

[amsoilman]

Wayne, I'll publicly make you a deal:



Next analysis point, send your sample to your usual lab - undoubtedly Oil Analyzers - and also send ME a similar sample. I'll send it to Blackstone, have the usual analysis as well as a particle count TAN and TBN done, and pay the cost, and post results on TDR - OK?

Gary,

I really don't see what that is going to prove! First and foremost, I am depending on "Trend Analysis" which I have going for me. When I did the first UOA, at 10,200 miles on oil, the report read the following:

Iron:39

Chromium: 0

Lead: 0

Alluminum: 7

Tin: 0

Silicon: 13

Magnesium: 69

Calcium: 3955

Phosphorous:1190

Zinc: 1365



Fuel <1



Vis@100 C 13. 85



SOOT: 0. 1 % wt



TBN: 11. 42

Oxid: 18. 0

Nitr: 15. 0



The numbers have risen, but now they are falling.



I feel I have a very good trend analysis, and I have done a "Particle count", but do not see it as a very good indicator of what I need, as a "particle count" see's everything... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... . even additive particles, where a spectrochemical analysis can only see the wear metals in the oil, which are between 5-10 MICRONS!



Respectfully,



Wayne

amsoilman

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

OK - no problem - but it sure would be interesting to see what possible analysis differences - AND recommendations would have resulted...



Regards, as always~



Gary

 

[PRout]

Just make sure the sample is still "warm" when you receive it. . :-laf:-laf

Ok, seriously. . Thanks for posting yours "Amsoilman". the iron looks pretty good for all those miles on the oil. The silicone seems high though. I think when I did my 40k test my iron may have been close to yours but only had about 5 on the silicone. Now Im wondering about how well YOUR air cleaner is working. . Just seems high thats all. . The rest looks pretty good for that many miles on it. .

I keep thinking about running the Amsoil synthetic in my truck also and go for the extended intervals (ok maybe a compromise like 25k miles or something like that) but like some others, after changing the oil mine goes right into the aux tank where it gets circulated through "another" frantz and then transfer it to the main tank and burn it for fuel. . Have heard synthetic doesnt burn too well. . Would rather run the syn though, Ive just always been leary of having more leaks with it. .

 

[amsoilman]

Just make sure the sample is still "warm" when you receive it. . :-laf:-laf



Ok, seriously. . Thanks for posting yours "Amsoilman". the iron looks pretty good for all those miles on the oil. The silicone seems high though. I think when I did my 40k test my iron may have been close to yours but only had about 5 on the silicone. Now Im wondering about how well YOUR air cleaner is working. . Just seems high thats all. . The rest looks pretty good for that many miles on it. .



I keep thinking about running the Amsoil synthetic in my truck also and go for the extended intervals (ok maybe a compromise like 25k miles or something like that) but like some others, after changing the oil mine goes right into the aux tank where it gets circulated through "another" frantz and then transfer it to the main tank and burn it for fuel. . Have heard synthetic doesnt burn too well. . Would rather run the syn though, Ive just always been leary of having more leaks with it. .

My first analysis at 10,200 miles on the oil reported silicon:13

Second analysis at 21,000 miles on oil sreported silicon: 19

Third analysis at 31,500 miles on oil reported silicon:16

Fourth analysis at 45,300 miles on oil reported silicon: 24

Fith analysis at 54,800 miles on oil reported silicon: 25

sixth analysis (current) 60,000 on oil reported silicon: 25



I'm really not worried about the silicon levels or any others for that matter.



AS too the "wives tales" about synthetics causing oil leaks. If you have a "mechanicly sound" engine, synthetics should not cause an oil leak!



Generally, if you have an engine that has many miles on it, you may have some "false" sealing areas which the synthetics "may clean the false seals away, and you could get a leak. HOwever, that said, some engines are just "prone" to leak, just because of the design of the seals! I can think back in the 80's where the Ford "bigblock" had leakage problems right out of the factory!



Wayne

 

[courierdog]

Gary: on the 3rd generation 6. 7 the EVIC tells us when to change oil and from my current experience it is regardless of driving style hwy or in town, it is about 3000 miles or 5000 Km so I am suspecting it is an ECM/PCM thing and will not change even with a bypass filter installed. I will know soon as I am hoping to get mine installed SOON. I still have to work out the mounting details for my filter to minimize the mess during the change process and since it is all stainless steel it should be visible to show off, hi hi VE6LX

 

[Grieke]

My earlier quoted comment was general in nature (not aimed specifically at you), mostly aimed at earlier similar comments on occasional tendency of looser wound rolls to stay on the filter center post when the canister is removed.



But, I've used the "factory installed" Frantz TP in several new installations with OLD filters - been in garages and on the shelves in the OEM boxes for YEARS, with no problems, so wouldn't expect issues with newer stuff.



One reason I wanted to try the Frantz supplied rolls, is their greater density, and the stronger center core that resists deforming or crushing when outer wraps are added and the resulting cartridge is a tighter fit into the canister.



Added to that, was earlier comments that it appeared Scott was modifying their production process, and MIGHT affect the performance of their TP as used in our oil filtering applications - dunno if that is true or not, haven't wandered down the TP section of the store lately - but the Frantz stuff SHOULD be about the best overall quality out there for filtering performance.

Gary

one additional question: Is your filter mounted high enough above the oil return to allow for complete drainage? Assuming you are returning into the oil fill cap. I am thinking that might be part of my problem, (and reason for the mess) since my filter can only drain about half way. There is not enough hight above the engine under my hood when returning the oil into the oil fill cap.

I am considering installing an additional drain valve.

Thank you and best regards.

Gerhard.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Gary

one additional question: Is your filter mounted high enough above the oil return to allow for complete drainage? Assuming you are returning into the oil fill cap. I am thinking that might be part of my problem, (and reason for the mess) since my filter can only drain about half way. There is not enough hight above the engine under my hood when returning the oil into the oil fill cap.

I am considering installing an additional drain valve.

Thank you and best regards.

Gerhard.

As shown in the pics way back at the beginning of this thread, my particular install places the Frantz canister at the same top height as the passenger side battery it attaches to, the filtered oil goes as also pictured, to the oil fill cap thru an Amsoil swivel fitting.



Also pictured is the typical oil residue after the canister is removed - and after the truck sits overnite, very little oil mess to deal with, and normally all held within the base section of the filter.



Actually, the largest return oil path after engine shutdown, is thru the INLET hose, and on my truck, again as pictured at the beginning, THAT is at the OEM filter mount - which IS lower than the Frantz...



Here again is an overall pic of my setup:



https://www.turbodieselregister.com/user_gallery/sizeimage.php?photoid=3096&width=2

 

[courierdog]

Placement of Filter

Gary, in your experience does it matter where or how the filter is placed.

1. higher or lower than the source

2. higher or lower than the return

3. maximum length of oil lines to and from the engine.

Why you ask?

The 3rd generation (6. 7 litre) engine compartment does not easily support another piece of equipment.

While some suggest mounting on the frame rail.

I know the old addage "out of sight, out of mind"

Therefore it must be visable during normal operation, Engine compartment, outside, or in the box, somewhere it can be seen and serviced regularly and easily in any weather. I live in Alberta where winter is coming and -40C with a wind is not uncommon. A garage is nice, under a truck even in a garage is not! ha ha

What are your thoughts

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

I would think that with any filter of the types under discussion here, the line and portion of the filter it attaches to that typically holds the most oil when the engine isn't running is the one that likely should be lowest as far as allowing oil to drain back for less mess in cartridge changes, and should be at the lowest oint possible.



On the Frantz, that would be the oil supply line ENTERING the filter - because the oil then fills whatever cavity that exists above the TP cartridge, as well as the volume inside the center post - probably a good cupful in all in the case of the Frantz. The more of that volume that can drain back out of the filter and lines, the better.



Again, here's what little oil I'm usually faced with when I remove the used cartridge/canister from the base:



https://www.turbodieselregister.com/user_gallery/sizeimage.php?photoid=11269&width=2



As to mounting locations on 3rd generation trucks, you'll need to check with the guys using them in that application - I can't help you there, but as you mention, a location that provides easy access for regular inspection and maintenance is most desirable - the best bypass filter in the world is only as good as the maintenance it gets!

 

[steved]

3. maximum length of oil lines to and from the engine.

Why you ask?

I have over 20 feet of 1/4-inch line run for my GCF... and I also had over 20 feet of 1/4-inch line on my Amsoil BMK-11. I had no trouble with the filter or lines... it actually promotes maintenance, because of the easier access.



And considering it is only a filter, without moving parts, that requires no user input between changes... why would you need it where you can see it??



The only thing I would recommend on a long run where you live is using 3/8" or 1/2" ID hose, as it will allow more flow at those cold temperatures...



steved

 

[PRout]

Calling in the Calvary..

Check out this Silicone level... 68ppm (please excuse me while I fall over)

Only 3 things have changed since the last sample. Injectors, the oil, & the air filter. . The only thing I can think of why it could be this high is i used silicone on the threads of the 4 air horn / grid heater bolts. I wonder if they enter an oil passage. Have re-checked the connections to the air cleaner and they are good. This is the new style Delo. I doubt it has high silicone in it. . Its got me wonderin. Any thoughts on why the silicone count would be this high? Thanks, Phil.

Link to a more readable copy. . http://66. 214. 238. 173:13200/Truck%20Pics/Oil_Analysis/oil_analysis_082007.jpg

This oil was changed out at the last oil analysis. It has around 4300 miles on it. I took the sample and then changed the frantz paper roll afterwards. So this is with no makeup oil. Im thinking the silicone has to be from when I changed the injectors out, but didnt use any silicone on the brand new valve cover gasket, only the 4 air horn bolts that I can think of. . The air cleaner is nanofiber so it SHOULD be good. . Visually inspected it in the dark looking at a light and no holes seen. Also, if it was dirt coming in, I would think there would be some wear metals showing like chromium from rings. But that is "0". Kinda makes me think its not dirt, but cant rule it out yet.

Wonder if they used silicone spray on the new bosch RV275's I recently installed. They were pretty oily. Only other thing i can think of is its been running on alot of biodiesel lately, like B99. . Wonder if it's eating up a hose and thats getting in the fuel. . Doubting that one too. . Especially when there is only a trace of fuel detected in the oil. Any ideas?

Afterthought: Since there is no unusual wear on the iron, chromium, aluminum, lead or copper which are all relatively low, that indicates low wear. Which tells me this oil has probably been contaminated with silicone sealer. Its probably a GOOD CATCH BY BLACKSTONE LABS.

Am very interested in other opinions. . Thanks.