Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) Anatomy of an APPS

[Gary - K7GLD]

Keep us informed as there might be some different adjustments between the manual APPS and Auto APPS (manual & auto transmission).

Mike

I've seen info that there is a difference in programming, auto vs manual transmission, in the ECM and PCM - but NEVER have seen anything related to a difference in the APPS between the 2 - does anyone here KNOW if there are different DC OEM APPS numbers for auto vs manual trannies?



Personally, I sorta doubt it!

 

[rweis]

I towed the 5er this morning and no codes. Looks like things are going to stay put.



Mike is going to make up some harness' that will go between the dc APPS plug and the WeatherHead connectors on the Williams APPS.



While we are testing these modifications, over on the Williams site there are some John Deere APPS that do not have an IVS. They only have the 1 WeatherHead connector with 3 wires in it for the APPS potentiometer. From the pictures they are the same potentiometer and mount the same.



On page 7 of the Williams Throttle Controls Catalog notice the Cummins DDECIII** (** meaning with IVS) and the John Deere connectors are exactely the same but the John Deere does not have any connections in the DEF positions of the 6 pin connector that plugs into the APPS itself.



On page 14 there is a DDECIII without the IVS and it looks the same physical shape etc as the Cummins DDECIII with IVS (both being DDECIII I bet the pots are the same as well).



On page 9 it has the exact physical dimensional drawings of 3 of the APPS. The first one is the one we are using the 131032, however notice the 131521 is the exact same shape but for only a 3 wire WeatherHead (meaning no IVS).



On page 10 it has the Cummins APPS DDECIII (with IVS) and the DDECII 131521 and DDECIII 131522 which are the same dimensions from page 9. I bet the DDECIII 131522 is the Cummins DDECIII 131032 without the IVS exactely. Then we use the MS against the bellcrank to do the IVS and ALL of the circuitry is GONE leaving only the DDECIII wiper and the MS, and I bet the APPS problem would be completely solved.



That would be perfect for the MS IVS approach and get rid of all the electronic circuitry. I think that might be phase 2 of this APPS project if someone want to start down that route while some of us test the APPS / IVS single module approach.



We have this thing licked for the interim and I bet for the long haul with the next iteration of DDECIII (w/o IVS) & MS for the IVS.



Bob Weis

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Bob, any info on price of those John Deere APPS that don't have the IVS function? One of those - if they ARE totally interchangeable with ours, plus the added MS for the IVS function, would be great!

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

I just went over to the Williams Controls website, and found THIS:



132144 WM-531 Remote Sensor Assembly



Looks like the most promising for what I am looking for - a way to ELIMINATE the current APPS electronics IVS section, and replace it with a mechanical switch for greater avoidance of heat related problems.



Too bad their descriptive material doesn't include actual total resistance for their modules, or shaft types and mounting hardware arrangement/dimensions. BUT, if those WERE a directly interchangeable unit, requiring only some adaptation of wiring connection to our setups, THAT would be a way to go that satisfies both automatic and manual trannies, and at a total cost to adapt of under $100! Oo.



(NOTE!) One item of concern, is the stated spec that the shaft rotation for that and the other similar units I saw on their site, is COUNTER-clockwise - the OPPOSITE of what we need for our application... In all the similar application specs I have ever dealt with, the rotation direction was based on looking at the control from the shaft end - perhaps these are done differently?

 

[rweis]

Gary,



http://www.wmco.com/products/throttle_controls_catalog.pdf



The catalog has ALL the toys and some dimensional drawings as well.



Direction is same as we are doing now. It is CCW looking at the mounting screws of the APPS.



Bob Weis

 

[mhenon]

I'm going to play with something this week (if I find the time) that "might" end the IVS thing permanently. Way back when we were working on VP44 issue's some of the posts suggested that the VP's were seizing after long uphill pulls (towing heavy) just as the driver would hit the crest and let off the pedal. The theory was the VP44 doesn't fuel with rpm's above idle and foot off the pedal. This lack of fuel stopped cooling, lubricating fuel from getting to the rotor and BAM. . seized injector pump. I'm not arguing whether that is totally correct or not but I did try to adjust my idle set screw on the bellcrank to prevent the engine from ever coming to a complete idle. I actually ran it that way for awhile but decided against it and adjusted the idle back to normal. what I had done (without realizing it of course) was to prevent the IVS from ever triggering the internal relay to idle. The engine was always in accelerate. . even though just barely when I let off the pedal. The part I can't remember is. . did I ever try to start the engine in that condition. My memory says I did and it started fine but don't bet a penny on my memory.

Anyway if this works I think everyone can see the implications. Turn the set screw until your engine trickles slightly above idle (825rpm vs 800) and the IVS circuit is froze. If you want to get serious put a jumper between "gound" and "accelerate" in the OEM wiring bundle and the ECM could never even accidently detect idle (a spike from the APPS).

Anyone feeling brave go ahead and try it. I'll try mine when I get the chance. With the weather pack connectors on my OEM wiring it would be simple for me to pull the connector that goes to IVS and install a jumper completely eliminating the IVS circuit. I'll let you know how it goes!

Mike

 

[rweis]

I ran the VP44 return back to a bed tank for a while trying to get it cooler before dumping it into the OEM tank.



At idle (actually any rpm) the VP44 does bypass fuel back to the tank. At idle it is a trickle about 1/8" in diameter and not with much pressure. ie not going to cool much if the VP44 is really hot. Vp44 heat imparted to the fuel is based on rpm's and load being pulled. The higher the rpm's and the heavier the load the higher the heat the VP44 passes to the fuel.



I have been monitoring fuel temps now about 2 years full time. (fuel coolers, blower, etc)



When I was trying to figuer the IVS last couple of days i took the bracket off so I could work both sides of the OEM APPS. I could rotate the APPS a little, I could work the bell crank at the same time.



I could reach a point that the engine would go into a slow accelerate mode, but accelerate right on up into the thousands of rpm's, by turning the physical APPS until the IVS was satisfied.



Good luck, it is all one great big puzzle for sure, but we have all the border pieces together and some of the picture itself.



Bob Weis

 

[mhenon]

You running free of codes Bob? What idle voltage did you settle on or are you still tweaking it?

Oh I think this thing is wipped for the most part. Just a matter of personal preference now. it looks like from the most recent post there might be another option or two.

YOU LISTENING DC!!!

 

[mhenon]

Hey. . anyone know how to remove the accelerator pedal? It's got a weird looking pin and locking device (almost said nut. . but it's not a nut). I don't have a service manual so any help would be appriciated. Also: Deutsch DT Series 6-Way Connectors. Are the two female connectors (DT04-6P-Assy & DT04-6P-E004-Assy) the same thing in different colors or really different? Which one fits the OEM connector?

Mike

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Also: Deutsch DT Series 6-Way Connectors. Are the two female connectors (DT04-6P-Assy & DT04-6P-E004-Assy) the same thing in different colors or really different? Which one fits the OEM connector?

Mike

Based upon comments earlier in this thread - don't remember by who - it's my understanding those are a male/female matching pair, and also pretty much identical to the DC OEM plug/pin arrangement, but slightly different latches. I certainly hope so - I have a pair of those on their way! :-laf



I did a trial match up with the male plug of that deutschconnector setup I *do* have, and it's an exact pin match up with my DC APPS plug/pins...

 

[mhenon]

But they show two male/female pairs that look pretty close.

1. Female: DT04-6P-Assy... ... ... ... . male: DT06-6S-Assy

2. Female: DT04-6P-E004-Assy..... male: DT06-6S-E004-Assy

I only need the female connectors to make up a set of jumpers between the weather packs and OEM 6 pin connector. Just not sure which to order... DT04-6P-Assy or DT04-6P-E004-Assy. It looks like just a color difference which wouldn't matter if that's the case.

 

[KarlC]

Also: Deutsch DT Series 6-Way Connectors. Are the two female connectors (DT04-6P-Assy & DT04-6P-E004-Assy) the same thing in different colors or really different? Which one fits the OEM connector?

Mike,



The only difference is the color. I bought a male and a female from them and they mate with the OEM ones perfectly. They come as a kit with the loose contacts, the shell (the dark part in the picture), and a retainer (the orange part).



After the contacts are wired up and put in the shell, the retainer snaps in to hold the contacts in and keep the o-ring from slipping off. The retainer is held in the shell by a couple of tabs that fit into recesses in the shell. It looked like once in place the retainer would be hard to get back out again if I needed to change the wiring. I filed down the tabs on the retainer so it wouldn't latch, which is ok for testing but the retainer falls out every time the connector is unplugged.

 

[mhenon]

OK. . thanks Karl. I'm going to put an order in and make up a few jumpers for folks that want to try the Williams APPS. The Deutsch connector is about $7. 00 bucks and a set of Weather Packs the same. The jumper should be less than $20. 00 and I can test each one on my engine before they go out.

Mike

 

[rweis]

Mike,



. 435 volts pin 23 C3. Seems like it should be low, but it runs, accelerates, tows, good transmission shifts, and I "ain't messing with it" for a little while.



I'm thinking the ECM may be ALOT more forgiving than one would think once you get the new APPS value into the ECM. I know what the procedure is on that just not sure exactely how that happens (I did the procedure and it did not put the new value in several times, then suddenly the new value is there).



Cooling holes in APPS

3@ 3/8" cooling holes ( I do a bilge blower to the VP44 and that OAT air comes up through these holes to keep the APPS cool)

 

[mhenon]

Bob, Nice! A Williams APPS and cooled at that. Much more suited to the million mile engine! Thoses holes alone might save many OEM APPS from cooking. Gary's APPS pic's of the 6 contact pins and zebra strip used to complete the circuit made a lot of sense to me. I'm betting that's where most of the failures occur and probably from heat. When my APPS went it acted very much like an intermittent electrical problem.

Going to try my "High Idle" trick today and see if we can bypass the IVS system altogether. At the least it would be a good trick to limp home if your APPS goes belly up on the road.

Mike

ps: still think you need to crank that idle voltage up a hair. You might be on the ragged edge of "low Voltage" from the ECM perspective

 

[JLandry]

I've been closely following and re-reading this thread for some time now... thanks for all the hard work and experimenting guys.



Based on my understanding of the results so far, could someone verify the minimum parts list needed if someone has an OEM Daimler-Chrysler APPS and wants to install a Williams Control APPS as a replacement?



You would need:



From Williams Controls:



1 each 131973 APPS Sensor "Kit" (includes 1 each 132354 APPS Sensor, and 132252 Screws) at $94. 54



1 each 131165 Wiring Harness at $26. 41



From Batts Racing:



1 each DT04-6P-Assy (Gray) or DT04-6P-E004-Assy (Black) with 16-18 AWG pins at $7. 08 to $14. 02 depending on color and which pins chosen.



Is the above correct?



Then to install:



1. Disconnect negative battery cables.



2. The OEM APPS assembly is removed from the engine.



3. The OEM APPS (just the sensor) is removed from the APPS bracket.



4. The Williams Controls APPS (sensor only) is bolted to the OEM APPS bracket.



5. The two Weatherpack connectors on the Williams Controls wiring harness are cut off and the single Deutsch connector installed in their place.



6. The modified Williams Controls wiring harness is connected in between the new Williams Controls APPS and the connector on the engine wiring harness.



7. The APPS assembly is reinstalled on the engine.



8. Reconnect batteries.



9. Execute APPS "learn" procedure.



Done.



Did I miss anything?



Is an adjustment or calibration step required for the Williams Controls APPS before (or after) installation on the OEM APPS bracket? If yes, can someone describe this step?



Thanks in advance,



John L.

 

[mhenon]

I've been closely following and re-reading this thread for some time now... thanks for all the hard work and experimenting guys.



Based on my understanding of the results so far, could someone verify the minimum parts list needed if someone has an OEM Daimler-Chrysler APPS and wants to install a Williams Control APPS as a replacement?



You would need:



From Williams Controls:



1 each 131973 APPS Sensor "Kit" (includes 1 each 132354 APPS Sensor, and 132252 Screws) at $94. 54



1 each 131165 Wiring Harness at $26. 41



From Batts Racing:



1 each DT04-6P-Assy (Gray) or DT04-6P-E004-Assy (Black) with 16-18 AWG pins at $7. 08 to $14. 02 depending on color and which pins chosen.



Is the above correct?



Then to install:



1. Disconnect negative battery cables.



2. The OEM APPS assembly is removed from the engine.



3. The OEM APPS (just the sensor) is removed from the APPS bracket.



4. The Williams Controls APPS (sensor only) is bolted to the OEM APPS bracket.



5. The two Weatherpack connectors on the Williams Controls wiring harness are cut off and the single Deutsch connector installed in their place.



6. The modified Williams Controls wiring harness is connected in between the new Williams Controls APPS and the connector on the engine wiring harness.



7. The APPS assembly is reinstalled on the engine.



8. Reconnect batteries.



9. Execute APPS "learn" procedure.



Done.



Did I miss anything?



Is an adjustment or calibration step required for the Williams Controls APPS before (or after) installation on the OEM APPS bracket? If yes, can someone describe this step?



Thanks in advance,



John L.

John, The Williams web-site is a little confusing to me. I did find:

132034 Sensor Kit DDEC III & IV, W/IVS

This is the part number I ordered from a local trucking shop and it includes the sensor (or APPS) and wiring harness with Weather Pack connectors. The two parts you listed pn#131973 + pn#131165... I "Think" would get you the same thing but am not 100% sure.

You could cut off the weather pack connectors and install the Deutsch connector. That would work. I'm going to make a jumper (like 6" of wiring) that connects directly from the weather pack to OEM Deutsch fitting. With this, if your Willaims APPS ever fails on the road. . you could stop in at a Cummins dealer or truck repair station and get a new Williams sensor. Then just plug it in and go. No need to re-build a new Deutsch connector to the sensor. Other than that your way would be fine.

The final adjustment I did was this; I unscrewed the idle stop screw to get the voltage as low as possible (pin 23 PCM). It wouldn't go lower than . 634v but was close enough apparently. I then turned the idle screw back in just a hair, to . 635v, just to make sure i wasn't bottomed internally on the APPS. That spring on the bellcrank is pretty stout and I didn't want it pushing against a little plastic stop inside the APPS. Hope that made sense. then just disconnect the battery, reconnect and do the "key on. . pedal to the floor. . key off" recalibration. That's it!

Mike

 

[rweis]

John,



Just to certain you understand MY opinion is this is not quite yet plug and play.



I have an automatic transmission and my pin 23 C3 voltage is very different, . 435 volts (I am going to slowly work my voltage toward something more like . 550 volts as time goes along). I was having a heck of a time getting the ECM to put the "new" APPS values in the ECM. I thought it was "9. Execute APPS "learn" procedure" also. I think there is something more to it than that. Mine ECM kept telling me my APPS voltage read was NOT what was stored in the ECM (0121) and it would go no further as far as recalibrating it.



What it would not do is: It would crank up and run just fine, but wound not accelerate, ie something about the IVS values. Then for what ever reason the ECM stored the new APPS value and it was fine, meaning it would crank up and run AND accelerate (which is what you want).



The more users we have and build a bigger user base and get more information as to how you installed yours and how it runs the better.



Just be aware we are still in the "early days", MY opinion.



Bob Weis

 

[JLandry]

This is the part number I ordered from a local trucking shop and it includes the sensor (or APPS) and wiring harness with Weather Pack connectors.

Mike,



Thanks for the speedy come back.



Regarding which Williams Controls part number to buy, here's my take on it after carefully studying their catalog last night...



The Williams APPS "kit" p. n. 132034 does indeed include the APPS we need and the wiring harness, *but* it also includes several other items we don't need for a straight OEM APPS swap and it costs $149. 55 (on the Williams Control web site). P. n. 131973 contains only the APPS and some screws, so you still need wiring harness p. n. 131165, but those two items added together costs less at only $120. 95, so that seems like the better way to go. But certainly buying p. n. 132034 is an acceptable alternative, albeit a bit more expensive.

You could cut off the weather pack connectors and install the Deutsch connector. That would work. I'm going to make a jumper (like 6" of wiring) that connects directly from the weather pack to OEM Deutsch fitting. With this, if your Willaims APPS ever fails on the road. . you could stop in at a Cummins dealer or truck repair station and get a new Williams sensor. Then just plug it in and go. No need to re-build a new Deutsch connector to the sensor. Other than that your way would be fine.

OK, there's where you have me confused.



Unless I'm mistaken in my studies of the pictures in this thread and the Williams Controls catalog, the Williams APPS has a recepticle on it that the Williams wiring harness plugs into. Put another way, the Williams APPS is not hard wired. Please keep in mind I've never seen a Williams APPS in person. Now assuming you've modified a Williams wiring harness to connect from the Williams APPS directly to the stock (unmodified in any way) engine wiring harness but clipping off the supplied Weatherpack connectors and instaling a single Deutsch 6-pin connector in its place, why would you need a seperate "jumper" harness and have any problem reinstalling either an OEM or Williams APPS in the future?

The final adjustment I did was this; I unscrewed the idle stop screw to get the voltage as low as possible (pin 23 PCM). It wouldn't go lower than . 634v but was close enough apparently. I then turned the idle screw back in just a hair, to . 635v, just to make sure i wasn't bottomed internally on the APPS. That spring on the bellcrank is pretty stout and I didn't want it pushing against a little plastic stop inside the APPS. Hope that made sense. then just disconnect the battery, reconnect and do the "key on. . pedal to the floor. . key off" recalibration. That's it!

Mike

This is the part I wasn't clear on.



Questions:



1. Is there a way to make this idle voltage adjustment you described on the bench using an Ohm meter? Could I adjust for lowest resistance and then back off the internal stop as you did?



2. Can you please reconfirm these are the wiring connections you're currently using for the Williams APPS (this is what Bob Weis was confirming earlier in the thread after you reported success and I'm not sure I saw you give a black-and-white confirmation this is it). I ask because I saw confusion about how to hook up the IVS component of the Williams APPS.



Williams APPS "A" White wire to OEM 4 black yellow wire (Ground)

Williams APPS "B" Black wire to OEM 3 light blue black wire (Signal)

Williams APPS "C" Red wire to OEM 5 dark blue white wire (5 volt)



Williams IVS "A" Orange wire to OEM 1 black light blue wire (Ground)

Williams IVS "B" Blue wire to OEM brown orange wire (Idle)

Williams IVS "C" Green wire to OEM 2 light green dark blue wire (Throttle or "Not Idle")



Thanks again!



John L.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

The more users we have and build a bigger user base and get more information as to how you installed yours and how it runs the better.



Just be aware we are still in the "early days", MY opinion.

YUP - BY ALL MEANS!



At this point, we HAVE whipped the "lock" on having ONLY the failure prone and expen$ive DC APPS unit available to us - we now have SEVERAL different, working alternatives in the final stages of refinement.



But for anyone besides others willing to experiment with their own versions (ALWAYS WELCOME! ), there will be a bit more time and miles involved in having specific numbers and instructions to provide for those a bit less technically inclined and timid about their truck's electronics.



I myself, will have another version, probably within the next week, that will be aimed at supplementing a WORKING DC APPS by eliminating the built-in electronic IVS, and substituting the external micro switch that so far seems an excellent alternative. This version "fix" will also allow the possibility that what was *thought* to be a failed APPS due to failure or intermittent internal IVS operation, to be resurrected and put back into service.



This IS still a "work in progress", but so far, the progress is EXCELLENT! :-laf