Bad injectors at 95K miles... is this normal?

[Yo Hoot]

A favorite trick when you take it in for a cold start problem is leave it in the shop overnight where it is warm so it starts an runs good when they test it. You then get the famous "Cannot replicate customer complaint" ticket. The streatment the OP is reporting is just too prevalent.

Unless you are out of warranty, then they find more than you bargained for.

 

[cerberusiam]

Unless you are out of warranty, then they find more than you bargained for.

. . or try to sell a $150 injector cleaning service before proceeding with any testing or troubleshooting.

 

[HBarlow]

cerberusiam,

All of this discussion begs the question:

What can an owner do to correct the vague driveability issues that the original poster and others experience? My understanding is new OEM Bosch injectors cannot be purchased and it has long been my opinion that so-called rebuilt injectors purchased from the local diesel injector repair shop can't be trusted. The shop may have good equipment, good intentions, and skill but it seems to me the stories always end up like this one.

What can the owner do?

 

[Yo Hoot]

Yes you can purchase brand new injectors.

 

[HBarlow]

Where? I thought I had read even recently from an accurate source that only so-called rebuilts were available.

Can they be purchased from a Cummins dealer? Ram dealer? How can a buyer be sure he is buying new OEM Bosch not some poor substitute? I guess an R in the part number often identifies a rebuilt.

What should a new OEM Bosch injector cost?

 

[Yo Hoot]

I know these are performance but they start with brand new... .

http://www.bigbanginjection.com/

 

[Bob4x4]

New injectors can be sourced through bosch dealers,do not get the bosch motorsports injectors that have the wrong spray angle for the 4. 5+

 

[Bob4x4]

see disclaimer

BBI PRODUCTS ARE FOR COMPETITION, ORGANIZED RACING, AND OFF ROAD USE ONLY their testing does not include leakage???

 

[cerberusiam]

What can an owner do to correct the vague driveability issues that the original poster and others experience? My understanding is new OEM Bosch injectors cannot be purchased and it has long been my opinion that so-called rebuilt injectors purchased from the local diesel injector repair shop can't be trusted.

New injectors are available and still being produced. When you buy an injector from a Bosch reseller and it says Genuine Bosch it is likely a new injector. In some cases it will be a Bosch reman injector but that is as close to new as you can get with remans. Bosch switched the numbers on the 5. 9 CR injectors when they quit producing the engine. All part numbers now reflect they are remans while in actuality they are a mix of new and genuine Bosch remans. This was done to seed the return injector return pipeline so they could reman them.



NOTE: Bosch or their reps wil never directly admit this nor the fact Bosch has retained a lot of the knowledge in the reman process. The best I have gotten is is a statement saying they cannot disagree with that, ummm, theory. Take it for what you think it is worth cuz there is no concrete answer.



As for correcting perceived driveability issues, open the wallet and try different suppliers and injectors, or, live with the results. I have yet to find an injector rebuilder or supplier that will guarantee the truck will run exactly like you want it. They will guarantee the parts by their testing procedures which may or may not be adequate to provide the consumer with what they want.



All we can really do is try to protect ourselves by insisting on Genuine Bosch Injectors from Bosch as a starting point. Failing to do that turns the whole process into a crap shoot.

 

[cerberusiam]

see disclaimer

BBI PRODUCTS ARE FOR COMPETITION, ORGANIZED RACING, AND OFF ROAD USE ONLY their testing does not include leakage???

Eh?? Where do you see that on the disclaimer? According to their info page that is one of the key things they address?

 

[HBarlow]

New injectors are available and still being produced. When you buy an injector from a Bosch reseller and it says Genuine Bosch it is likely a new injector. In some cases it will be a Bosch reman injector but that is as close to new as you can get with remans. Bosch switched the numbers on the 5. 9 CR injectors when they quit producing the engine. All part numbers now reflect they are remans while in actuality they are a mix of new and genuine Bosch remans. This was done to seed the return injector return pipeline so they could reman them.

NOTE: Bosch or their reps wil never directly admit this nor the fact Bosch has retained a lot of the knowledge in the reman process. The best I have gotten is is a statement saying they cannot disagree with that, ummm, theory. Take it for what you think it is worth cuz there is no concrete answer.

As for correcting perceived driveability issues, open the wallet and try different suppliers and injectors, or, live with the results. I have yet to find an injector rebuilder or supplier that will guarantee the truck will run exactly like you want it. They will guarantee the parts by their testing procedures which may or may not be adequate to provide the consumer with what they want.

All we can really do is try to protect ourselves by insisting on Genuine Bosch Injectors from Bosch as a starting point. Failing to do that turns the whole process into a crap shoot.

Thanks. That is more and better information than I had before. I thought there was little hope for worn injectors until I read your comments in this thread. All I had read was reman injectors of dubious quality could be purchased but they might be remanned in MX or other unknown place and may or may not be good.

If I ever need injectors I will look for a Bosch dealer.

 

[fkovalski]

Folks-



Thanks much for the information and "mini-education. "



I do not mind putting money into this truck. All ties to DC with respect to warrantied or covered item are perhaps consider to be over. I briefly weighed the option of new 2012 C/C, I opted to keep this one going a little (lot?) longer. I like not having a truck payment.



I will admit to perhaps being more particular than the average car buyer, I feel that I have the right to have issues repaired or replaced as long as a warranty coverage is in place and I abide by the terms. The truck is stock and has been faithfully maintained. I have another thread going regarding the nightmare of a driveline issue and I will not digress to that here.



I figured that from all the expert feedback at the shops I took it to can be trusted. I feel that the new (reman) injectors, while not completely solving my concerns, I did not think would make it worse. The "machine-gunning" symptom as I describe perhaps is just one of those idiosyncrasies of the diesel. I can live with it (but try to figure it out/ solve it over time. )



The "ping" however I feel to be unacceptable- especially since it was not like this pronounced even though some was present before the new injectors under certain conditions. Am I out of line by thinking that louder ping after new injectors is normal?

 

[Bob4x4]

Eh?? Where do you see that on the disclaimer? According to their info page that is one of the key things they address?

disclaimer is on their home page,they show an injector test that only has flow-no leak data

 

[Bob4x4]

Eh?? Where do you see that on the disclaimer? According to their info page that is one of the key things they address?

disclaimer is on their home page,they show an injector test that only has flow-no leak data

 

[cerberusiam]

The "ping" however I feel to be unacceptable- especially since it was not like this pronounced even though some was present before the new injectors under certain conditions. Am I out of line by thinking that louder ping after new injectors is normal?

Can you get an audio track of this and posted it thru Photobucket? It would help immensely to get the semantics of ping and rattle out of the equation.

For purposes of generally expected results, you should have a quieter engine after new injectors. Any increas ein noise would be cause for concern.

 

[fkovalski]

"... Are you actually feeling the truck buck as this is happening? A real faster shuddering maybe? Does it effect the mirrors or tach? Does it only happen at hard throttle? Light throttle? or ??... "



What I feel is very slight. I will fully admit there is the possibility of "memory dilution" (BTW- I like that term... LOL) ... I really do not recall it being present when new. It does not affect the tach reading, but it occurs at 1800-2000 RPM. It is not so drastic that it shakes any mirror or component. I mostly feel it when driving normally on an open road when maintaining speed. No "bucking" occurs. This machine-gun ticking as I describe is not pinging and it is not the paint can rattle (ala FCA) because that noise was present (I heard it) and it has been resolved.



If this condition of which I describe is perhaps a timing issue, I would like to learn more of any possible solutions to minimizing it. As mentioned, the truck is totally stock by choice. Do I start to look into any aftermarket performance tuners? Sould I look into other fuel delivery component replacement (solenoids, wiring harness, thermostats or other sensors, new ECU?)

 

[Roostre]

A friend of mine had very similar issues to yours on a truck with 80K on it. He also bought new injectors and they did not fix the issue. It finally dropped a valve seat and he was told that it was getting to be a fairly common issue. He had the head rebuilt with new seats and is now happy with the truck again.

My . 02 for what it worth...

Good luck.

 

[AH64ID]

It sounds to me like its altitude related. Mine sounds similar to what you are describing when I get up in the mountains. It's loud enough to be heard in lower gears, but not so much when I get above 3rd.



My guess is that the ECM ramps up the rail pressure a little more (1800-2000 runs decent pressure at load load) and the timing isn't retarded enough for the increased pressure and you get timing rattle.



In addition I would have been totally shocked if 4-6 of the injectors didn't fail bench testing at 95K miles, that would be normal. They can fail bench testing and still work fine.

 

[cerberusiam]

It does not affect the tach reading, but it occurs at 1800-2000 RPM. It is not so drastic that it shakes any mirror or component. I mostly feel it when driving normally on an open road when maintaining speed. No "bucking" occurs. This machine-gun ticking as I describe is not pinging and it is not the paint can rattle (ala FCA) because that noise was present (I heard it) and it has been resolved. )

I *think* what you are feeling is the result of a flash for the manuals, and, the combination of timing and altitude. Based on what AH says and what I remember from actually having an elevation greater than 3k feet to drive over, it is a idiosynchrasy of the tuning and other variables.

Before totally condemning the injectors or other parts, get a solid feel for what happens in towing situations, lower altitude, warmer temps, etc. The programming is semi-adaptive but it cannot account for all the possible variables you can run into. There are situations of temp, elevation, load, etc, that will introduce something new. Quite possibly it is harmonics causing it. Maybe a 6. 7 viscous damper would change things?

You can replace sensors as they can have a direct effect on tuning. MAP sensor and coolant tmep sensor are the most predominant ones for that.

 

[TCDiesel]

X2... With AH64ID I have given up on CR Injectors and the Web and the Myths that cause their failures... testing in the Host by Volume (back leakage rates is by far MORE accurate) then Balance rates or bench testing, If the back leakage rates are High couple with behavioral problems can accurately pin-point Injector failures,When I was Staying In west Yellow-stone MT last Week it was -22 My 03 started Right up (Not plugged in) it has the Injector knock when -0 , Some other dodge owner walk By and tried to start his 06 that didn't Start (Bad Batteries) His comment to Me Was his Injectors were Bad and BC I had the Knock Mine were also. I just let comments now like that just roll off and Move on, Latter after in the lobby when someone Made it clear to Him Who I was he approach again and asked What I thought why His truck would NOT start, I mentioned Bad Bats, He went uptown to Napa and Bought New... . truck Started right up, He Bought Me Dinner at 3 Bears... ... Yupeee.