Bad injectors at 95K miles... is this normal?

[Wayne M.]

X2... With AH64ID I have given up on CR Injectors and the Web and the Myths that cause their failures... testing in the Host by Volume (back leakage rates is by far MORE accurate) then Balance rates or bench testing, If the back leakage rates are High couple with behavioral problems can accurately pin-point Injector failures,.

TC, are you talking about measuring the return volume @ crank? One at a time?

 

[TCDiesel]

No,Use the 9012 SPX tool -to divert the fuel form return injectors (hard line Back of head) Install on factory Canister, Or use the 9013 SPX tool on CP3 return fuel (Lube cooling line) to container 1 gallon will do, on the canister dis-connect the QC and add QC line and run into measuring container, Unplug the FCA at IDLE ONLY Measure the amount of fuel in the container, Perfect return 60/80 ML in 1 Minute @ max rail PSI @ idle, 80/110ML OK, 110/130ML POOR or loose C-Tube, 130/150 Bad, 150/170 Hard Start, 170ML either start HP loss. After you start capping Injector lines to determine how many are Bad, If we capped 2 or more to drop below 110ml Per Minute, I recommend 6 replacements.





On a Side Note, Rarely do I Hear or See burn Down Motors form OEM Nozzles, its generally 40% overs or 120HP couple with Programming,If you go bigger Nozzles remember You increase the risk the bigger you go,All My DD and company trucks have factory Nozzles, With good programing (OP System) and some hard parts you can make 500/550 HP easily, Nothing wrong with 30% overs or 100HP on factory programing, but Always remember the More you add the more the risk of failure. (engine internals)





I will Not Support this idea that You can have a 700HP DD truck (550HP Yes), go to the track on Sat and run 12Secs and 100k troublesome free miles.

 

[fkovalski]

OP here... . I am just beside myself with how crappy the truck is running. I took it back to the shop that replaced the injectors and they are telling me all is normal for a Cummins. The tech said that the ping is perhaps due to carbon build-up inside the cylinders. He said that I should drive the vehicle at higher RPM to increase the engine temps to burn off the deposits. I told him that I normally drive such that engine speed is at 2,000 RPM or so. He said to drive in a gear that will up the RPM up to the 3,000+ range to get the temperatures up.



But, the "machine gun" sounding knock is absolutely horrible. He said that it is most likely due to timing and that I would need to go to the dealer for this condition. The dealer is telling me all is normal. I have no idea what to do now. But while this is a 96K truck and I drive at altitude, the machine gun sound is so much worse.

Can you get an audio track of this and posted it thru Photobucket? It would help immensely to get the semantics of ping and rattle out of the equation.

I am not sure how I could get a recording. I do not have any device to do this... but I agree that if I could it would help.

It sounds to me like its altitude related. Mine sounds similar to what you are describing when I get up in the mountains. It's loud enough to be heard in lower gears, but not so much when I get above 3rd.

The knocking seem irrelevant to gear. It is more prolific at 2000 RPM irrespective of gear. I have now been driving at around 2500-2700 RPM per tech's recommendation as described above and it is really strong at these higher RPM too!

My guess is that the ECM ramps up the rail pressure a little more (1800-2000 runs decent pressure at load load) and the timing isn't retarded enough for the increased pressure and you get timing rattle.

What can I do to adjust the ECM controling of my drivability conditions?



The tech said that I should insure all ECM flash updates have been performed. Is there a way to decipher what if any have been done on my truck?



The tech and I spoke about the quality of diesel fuel. The less sulfur, reduced cetane, et, al. I use Stanadyne All-Season additive mostly for the anti-gel properties. Is there a recommended cetane booster I can add to reduce the pinging? What about something to help burn off any possible carbon deposits?



Thanks,

-frank.

 

[JJPage]

Find someone with a Smarty, have him download a tune to your truck... that would either prove or eliminate an ecm software issue. The sound your describing sounds like when my TST went tu, it was timing related I'm sure, but disappeared with the new TST.

 

[fkovalski]

Find someone with a Smarty, have him download a tune to your truck... that would either prove or eliminate an ecm software issue. The sound your describing sounds like when my TST went tu, it was timing related I'm sure, but disappeared with the new TST.

OK... I guess here is where more of my education continues by now learning more about these things. I am perhaps going to ask some very basic questions for members here... . bear with me, but they are foreign to me. I plead ignorance ahead of time (and if that does not work I will defer to my Polish heritage :-laf:-laf:-laf



My truck is totally stock (except for 1 size larger tires. ) It has been maintained using recommended fluids at recommended intervals using Fleetgaurd products purchased from Ginos. Mobil Delvac oil is used. That said, I never really looked at or considered performance oriented products for it.



I have heard of this term "Smarty" but am not exactly sure what it is/ what it does. Is it a plug-in type of performance tuner? I will search it here, but to be honest I find the search feature cumbersome. Using the term "Smarty" will perhaps return thousands of posts. If there are some good ones you recommend I will read those.



What is this "TST"? Isn't that a plug-in tuner of sorts. Now that I am my own warranty garage I am willing to perhaps investigate what my options are with respect to after market modifications. BUT, I want to do it sensibly. I do not need to do 10 second 1/4 miles... I need to keep this thing running well while hauling my camper in the hills.



Is there a "Performance Tuners for Dummy's" book or source of information for understanding the different makes of tuners and any other modifications that may be required with each that is beyond "just plugging it in. " I will heed advice given, but only after I do my own due diligence to decide which one would be best for my needs... .



That said... lemme toss this out for opinions:



Would a water meth help my situation? I ask because back in the day I would recall old tymers pouring water down the carburetor of cars. They would point out to me how clean the side of a blown head gasket was cleaner than its opposite counterpart as an example of water added to the engine (granted a blown head gasket does not over ride the cleansing power of coolant) ... but based on that theory and IF there is carbon build-up in my cylinders, would a water meth injection help?

 

[cerberusiam]

A Smarty is class of tuner called a downloader. It plugs into your OBD port under the knee bolster and "loads" a modified version of the engine software into the ECU. It allows you pick and choose settings that modify timing, pressure ramps, and duration of the injection events to add more HP and TQ. The latest version of the Smarty UDC allows you to go even further to custom tune all these parameters using computer software and loads that into the ECU.

Water\meth is not going to help a tuning problem or carbon. Hard driving with a heavy load will much more effectively than anything else. An additive like SeaFoam or Marvel Mystery Oil introduced into the fuel filter then allowed to run thru the fuel system for a short time and soak for a bit will help carbon deposits dissipate. Not as well as hard driving but it does do somewhat the same thing. If it is carboning causing the problem you should be able to get a change by doing it, myabe not as much as you would like but some.

My truck has gotten worse the more miles it gets with the rattling at a certain load. Pretty sure it is just the result of wear in the nozzles and and the subsequent change in spray pattern. Only way to cure that is new nozzles and maybe bodies. Tuning helps somewhat but not enough. A quiet diesel engine is just an aberration, it is a delicate balance to achieve and harder to maintain. One thin wrong and it is noisy. The real fun is finding what is wrong.

 

[fkovalski]

Find someone with a Smarty, have him download a tune to your truck... that would either prove or eliminate an ecm software issue...

A Smarty is class of tuner called a downloader. It plugs into your OBD port under the knee bolster and "loads" a modified version of the engine software into the ECU. It allows you pick and choose settings that modify timing, pressure ramps, and duration of the injection events to add more HP and TQ. The latest version of the Smarty UDC allows you to go even further to custom tune all these parameters using computer software and loads that into the ECU... .

OK... so a "downloader" is not left plugged into the truck all the time? From JJPage's reply I am sure that a shop that has one of these uses it then the driver goes along after the download service. Is a Smarty a sort of an ECM re-programmer?

I am reading the Smarty website... almost seems as if one need to go to tech school in order to use one of these?? Is this product user friendly for the average Joe?

I will need to re-read my past TDR issues to remember the other brands of tuners/ programers/ downloaders... . but please feel free to comment on other products for which I can research.

 

[HBarlow]

Ski,

As a spectator sitting in the bleachers watching this thread develop I think you are a victim of bad advice from your dealer and local techs and a poor choice when you purchased injectors. I am not a mechanic and claim no knowledge or understanding of HPCR injectors or injection systems but I have been driving these trucks for awhile and a few miles.

I think there are only two ways for you to get out of this mess and neither is going to be very attractive to you. One would be to trade the truck which will cost you as much as your first home and the second is going to be starting over with a new set of OEM Bosch injectors and a promise to yourself to stay away from the dealer who has been advising you.

Just my opinion.

 

[cerberusiam]

OK... so a "downloader" is not left plugged into the truck all the time? From JJPage's reply I am sure that a shop that has one of these uses it then the driver goes along after the download service. Is a Smarty a sort of an ECM re-programmer?

I am reading the Smarty website... almost seems as if one need to go to tech school in order to use one of these?? Is this product user friendly for the average Joe?

You can leave the Smarty plugged in all the time to change power levels on the fly, or unplug and store it. Choices. Yes, the Smarty is an ECM programmer.

Too much information can be daunting, but, as an initial setup you have to choose about 5 buttons to install it on your truck. Very simple. Once it installs it is VIN locked so you really can't go to a performance shop and they flash the ECU and send you on your way. You want the Smarty to be able to change things and go back to stock if it has to go in for service.

As for an audio file, cell phones do a pretty good job if you have a decent phone. Most all the newer digital cameras have audio with video capture. If you can hear it well from the cab, a passenger holding the camera and videoing the tach\speedo while you drive an narrate the concerns works amazingly well. Up load it to a free Photobucket account and you can post the link here for everyone to listen to.

 

[Bob4x4]

Water injection will not fix a tuning issue but will clean carbon,but I have not seen carbon build up as a problem except on injector tips-with new injectors that will not be your case

 

[JJPage]

fko, When I advised to find someone with a Smarty, they can unlock the Smarty from their truck by programming it back to stock, and then downloading a software choice into your truck, just to sample a tune. I would choose all defaults and SW1, just to try it, see if your symptoms change. If it does, the Smarty owner can then program your truck back to stock and be on his way. By the way, the stock tune the Smarty puts back into your truck may be a bit different than your current stock tune... updates from Chrysler flashes.



If you were near me, I would gladly do this for you, then you could eliminate a possible ecm glitch in your current software. It does make me suspicious that the AK47 rattle has been amplified after the new injectors, that kind of points away from programming, but programming is worth a shot. Cerb is right, my truck rattles more with age also.



The TST is a black box tuner that plugs into your rail harness, map sensor, crank and cam sensors and is a permanent fixture, it alters the factory signals, whereas a downloader actually modifies the software. I believe the Smarty is far superior, didn't always think that, but am now convinced. I believe I am familiar with the sound you are hearing, when my TST started deteriorating, just after accelerating normally and reaching cruise, whether 35mph or 60mph, it would rattle or crack like an AK47 being fired off under my hood, had more than a few passengers look at me sideways. When I removed the TST to send it in for upgrade, the rattle was absent, after re-installing the upgraded TST, no more rattle.



Maybe a member from CO with a Smarty will chime in and offer to help, not saying this will solve your issue, but the process of elimination is all we have sometimes. Jess

 

[fkovalski]

fko, When I advised to find someone with a Smarty, they can unlock the Smarty from their truck by programming it back to stock, and then downloading a software choice into your truck, just to sample a tune. I would choose all defaults and SW1, just to try it, see if your symptoms change. If it does, the Smarty owner can then program your truck back to stock and be on his way. By the way, the stock tune the Smarty puts back into your truck may be a bit different than your current stock tune... updates from Chrysler flashes.

OK... so this would be just a temporary deal only to determine a faulty ECM? You mentioned in your previous reply: "... have him download a tune to your truck... that would either prove or eliminate an ecm software issue. " If I understand you correctly, the Smarty can duplicate a proper "stock-from-Dodge" ECM?



Ergo- if this Smarty temporary hook-up clears up what I have been complaining of, then I either need to buy a smarty... or a new ECM. Correct?

It does make me suspicious that the AK47 rattle has been amplified after the new injectors, that kind of points away from programming, but programming is worth a shot. Cerb is right, my truck rattles more with age also.

I get that. I know that this is a 96K truck... but something just does not feel right about all of this. If the Smarty-test to which you refer does not reduce this complaint, then there are other component issues.



I almost want to get the dealer's opinion of the sounds after the injector install. Would I be out of line by doing this? I realize that it will most likely be needing to pick up the bill for their time (all dealer opinions were on them with the exception of the deductible for any work performed thus far. )



I do not mind paying for their expertise. Do dealers do this "Smarty" type of work as described (or whatever official corporate Dodge name it goes by?) in order to eliminate the ECM as a possible cause of any problems?

The TST is a black box tuner that plugs into your rail harness, map sensor, crank and cam sensors and is a permanent fixture, it alters the factory signals, whereas a downloader actually modifies the software.

I think I want to look more into this Smarty device- whether it be another members, a dealer (if they do this type of thing) or an outright purchase before looking into a "black box" tuner.

I believe I am familiar with the sound you are hearing, when my TST started deteriorating, just after accelerating normally and reaching cruise, whether 35mph or 60mph, it would rattle or crack like an AK47 being fired off under my hood, had more than a few passengers look at me sideways. When I removed the TST to send it in for upgrade, the rattle was absent, after re-installing the upgraded TST, no more rattle.

So... the TST was the cause of your original problems?

 

[JJPage]

OK... so this would be just a temporary deal only to determine a faulty ECM? You mentioned in your previous reply: "... have him download a tune to your truck... that would either prove or eliminate an ecm software issue. " If I understand you correctly, the Smarty can duplicate a proper "stock-from-Dodge" ECM?



Your ECM may be fine, with just a hicup, if you will, in it's software. Yes, Smarty duplicates current Chrysler software



Ergo- if this Smarty temporary hook-up clears up what I have been complaining of, then I either need to buy a smarty... or a new ECM. Correct?



If a Smarty download corrects the issue,your ECM is fine, it was just the current tuning causing the issue. Then yes, you could purchase a Smarty and reflash your ECM.











I get that. I know that this is a 96K truck... but something just does not feel right about all of this. If the Smarty-test to which you refer does not reduce this complaint, then there are other component issues.





I almost want to get the dealer's opinion of the sounds after the injector install. Would I be out of line by doing this? I realize that it will most likely be needing to pick up the bill for their time (all dealer opinions were on them with the exception of the deductible for any work performed thus far. )



I do not mind paying for their expertise. Do dealers do this "Smarty" type of work as described (or whatever official corporate Dodge name it goes by?) in order to eliminate the ECM as a possible cause of any problems?



Correct, if Smarty does not change or eliminate the rattle, then something else is amiss. If you are comfortable with your dealer... They will not use a Smarty, nor condone it's use, just the opposite, they will void a warranty if they know of it's presence, they will reflash your ECM with their current software for a price.





I think I want to look more into this Smarty device- whether it be another members, a dealer (if they do this type of thing) or an outright purchase before looking into a "black box" tuner.



Smarty is the best choice for aftermarket tuner/downloaders. This may not do anything for you though, that's why I suggest getting someone with a Smarty to test on your truck brfore you buy.







So... the TST was the cause of your original problems?

Correct, something in the TST was deteriorating, causing I believe timing issues. It produced a nasty loud rattle, mostly before completely warmed up, but I knew something was not right. But, that is what I am surmising, you may just have a software timing issue and your hard parts are ok, a 15 minute exercise with a Smarty would let you know.

 

[fkovalski]

Thanks for the information... . I am going to toss this out there (and call me a fool if necessary)...

I asked about re-flash in this thread: https://www.turbodieselregister.com/forums/showthread.php?237120-Reflash-18-022-07-any-issues

I do not think it has been performed (but am not sure- long story, two different dealers... )

• Is there a way to tell if it has been done?
• Am I correct in being skeptical about dealers doing a re-flash?
• Should I go ahead and have the dealer do this?
• What is an idea of cost?

I recall members talking about stuff happening when going into reverse after a re-flash by a dealer that were unexpected and could not be undone??? (not that this particular re-flash caused those issues) but, I am of the mindset that "improvements" are not necessarily better... (heck my Windows XP still works fine... )

If I deserve a Homer Simpson head-slap "Doh!" then go ahead and let me have it

 

[cerberusiam]

A flash is one of those things like downloading an update to your computer. It may provide you with a positive experience, or, it may eat the operating system. For the most part, you are probably pretty safe having it done by a dealer. If the truck went in with no CEL's and running well, and, it comes back messed up the delaer should make it right no matter what. FYI, that doesn't always happen and may take a fight but the awareness that it was not broke when they got it will support your case.

Most of the flashes and updates are for the platform controls, trans, monitors, etc. Don't believe there were many if any actual code changes that would impact what you are seeing but one never knows because even the delaer is clueless at times what the flash does. Dodge releases it and lists what it addresses but not much more about impact or operation.

The ECU is really a small computer, think Trash 80 in functionality, and sometimes a reboot does some wonderous things. Just to make sure you don't have a transient problem, you could reboot the truck. Surpirsingly, its relatively simple. Remove all the battery cables and tie the ground cables together with a wire or boost cables for 30 minutes. This will force a relaod of volatile memory from the saved memory spaces and re-initialize a lot of the controls. Either it comes back on line with no changes, or, it does change something. Mind you, the change may be the truck will not start or start and barely run with CEL's. If nothing else you have pretty much determined a bad ECU is the problem. Doesn't happen often but the possibility is there.

 

[Bob4x4]

The 2005 has a lifetime warranty on the ecm. At least Cali models your dealer can check on your vin they can also check the labor op for a flash update (coverage). Or just go look up nuagle on here he should be able to fix you up

 

[p-Bar]

The 2005 has a lifetime warranty on the ecm. At least Cali models your dealer can check on your vin they can also check the labor op for a flash update (coverage). Or just go look up nuagle on here he should be able to fix you up

Bob that is only if you have issues smoging it ?

 

[Bob4x4]

Bob that is only if you have issues smoging it ?

No. they can't do labor ops that specific. So to check for coverage the op is covered whether it be for flashing or replacement.

 

[Bob4x4]

Bob that is only if you have issues smoging it ?

No. they can't do labor ops that specific. So to check for coverage the op is covered whether it be for flashing or replacement.

 

[p-Bar]

I would think the dealer would want some paper from the smog place showing it wouldn't pass because of the "readiness" of the computer not showing. ???