BD's new X convertor

[John]

Originally posted by rich m: If you want constant unlock, snag a transmission from a 1st-generation truck and get re-acquainted with a comparatively mushy throttle/seat o'pants relationship at highway speed.

I beg your pardon... my DTT 93% TC (which is probably equivalent to a BD rating of 106% or better #ad
) is so efficient that TCC lockup seems almost pointless! At stoplights, I BARELY have to depress the accelerator to achieve a QUICK launch while at the same time leaving the other vehicles behind me like they were on blocks! This is NO exaggeration! When you experience this for the first time it really puts a #ad
on your face! He!!, it still does. When I give it the SLIGHTEST amount of throttle from a dead stop it just lurches forward. Is that efficiency or what? Ditto all the way up to TCC lockup. Trans. temps. ? #ad
Even Bill could not believe how low mine are... he started razzin' me on the accuracy of my SPA gauges again. [Hey Bill, I finally saw 173 degrees F. once I checked peak recall for the trans. temp. The ATF temps. were double checked with a hand held infared temp. monitor to verify SPA gauge accuracy]. BTW, my temp. sender is located in the hot cooler line with a trick brass fitting I modified to allow more exposure to passing ATF.

Regarding the new BD custom milled aluminum stator... all other design characteristics being equal, the DTT steel stator should prove more efficient... stronger material = less mass, allowing a higher volume of fluid to be moved in a given area and time span. Jump in here anytime Cliff. Besides, look at what material is being used in all racing stators... steel! I wonder why. #ad


Don't even get me going on the failure rate of modified VBs by the two big players... you would be very surprised. One checks EVERY one of them! EVERY ONE! The other has had numerous quality problems. Nothing I hate worse than being the QC (or QA) department for some company that doesn't think enough of their customers to quality check (functional check in this case) their product. #ad
..... kind of like the cheap rebuilt starters and alternators that are sold by the chain auto parts stores. #ad


I guess what they say is true... . you get what you pay for.

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John Treibel
'98. 5 2500 QC 4x4 Sport, Glasstite Vision II, 285 BFG A/Ts on M/T Challengers, Warn 4X Boards, Mopar fender flares & tow hooks, NW Custom s/s-rubber mud flaps and accs. , Mag-Hytec diff. cover & DD trans. pan, Edelbrock IAS shocks, Reese Titan V hitch, SPA gauges (3), Dynamat, '00 Sport grille and headlights/PIAA Super White bulbs, PIAA Dual Sport 900 aux. lights, BD exh. brake, Amsoil Dual Remote Bypass w. trick billet block adapter and Aeroquip Teflon-s/s hoses, Optima Yellow Tops, DD3s and DD TTPM, Aeroquip AQP s/s fuel hoses, tricked out Cummins valve cover, tricked out Banks High-Ram intake manifold and 14 cm2 turbine housing w/Big Head wastegate actuator, ATS 3-piece exh. man. , Banks 4" dia. s/s exh. sys. , DTT 93% TC, DTT custom tuned VB, BD modified trans. front pump (enhanced by DTT), Air Bulldog induction hood (with NACA ducts), plus MANY other trick modifications

NRA Life (Patron) member

[This message has been edited by John (edited 05-05-2001). ]

 

[BRoth]

New technology is something to examine before throwing rocks. Steel stators are labor intensive and difficult to redesign fin paramaters etc.

Got a question though. When does the convertor clutch slip in high power/load applications? When it engages or when you have it locked up and you try to transfer the torque through it?

Isn't the transmission damage caused from torque convertor clutch linning failure far higher than running 240F out let oil temperatures?

The front cover and clutch design make this convertor worthy of installing. The stator design is a piece of art. It is done on a 5 axis CNC just like the compressor wheel on a turbocharger.

Brian@bd-power

 

[Fred Swanson]

Brian, realy nice hearing the part about being built on a CNC and all, but how much better than stock is your stator? Is the surface area increased? Additional lining and all is great, but that is only part of the convertors job.

We'll have to wait and see in Vegas how it performs. Are you going to have something there for it to tow? As we all know, unloaded you can promise anything, get a load on it, and let's see what it'll do. Not on a Dyno, on the road, that's where it counts.


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Fred Swanson
Co-Owner
Canyon State Components, LLC
www.canyonstatecomponents.com


'00 QC,SB,4x4,Auto,3. 54 w/LSD,Trailer Package,Tow Package,DTT's
TC(91%)&VB(80psi),DD2's,EZ,HOT PE,K&N RE-0880,Cummins RED Valve Cover

 

[Diesel Freak]

John, My head is still recovering from my previous posts. Why do you want me to start digging in my old text books again? #ad


Steel vs Aliminum: actually it depends on the alloys. I am not going to get into stress/strain diagrams or discuss Moduli of Elasticity, but I will say that generaly steel is 3x stronger than aluminum, BUT it weighs over 2x more
Atomic mass for Fe 55. 8
Atomic mass for Al 26. 9
Aluminum is MUCH easier to machine, so from a cost and weight standpoint I would use Aluminum. But if cost was no object I would love to see a Titanium Stator or some other strong lightweight fatigue resistant Unknownanium alloy.

John are you happy now?
-Cliff

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2001 ETH-DEE, Diablo Power Puck, Bosch 275's, Practical Solutions Boost Module and Elbow, LFT Silencer Ring Eliminator, K&N, Straight Piped http://www.mudrunner.sites.cc

 

[csutton7]

fred & barney had the best setup and that's what I'm going to do cuz I'm puking dizzy from the technical stuff on this---4 legs through the floorboard--ok maybe not-I went to the site howstuffworks and wow is all I can say--autos are a simple thing--NOT--somewhere down the line we'll get the bombproof auto for our trucks and that's what's exciting to me---keep it up guys----chris

 

[Diesel Freak]

Elvis is back for an encore. #ad

Originally posted by rich m:
[B

Cdaledh and Csutton7 -- Physics equations are lots of fun. Numeric manipulations can, by inclusion of favorables and/or exclusion of unfavorables, show whatever result desired to meet a purpose.
Anyone who's observed politics and polls for any length of time can attest to this. (F'r instance, if a population stays stable, and if total # of available jobs also stays stable, you can use the numbers to come up with a percentage of unemployment. Now, if you change the definition of "unemployed" to include some ethereal consideration of time or some other measurement, you can alter the numbers of persons included in the equation, and, by smoke-n-mirrors, increase or decrease the unemployment figures (or any other) to suit your political position... . )
[/B]

Correct, but with polls the results vary with the demographics of the sampled group.

I am just stating that an unlocked TC under FULL LOAD will lose more than 2% of the input energy.
Full Load: Engine at WOT at it's peak HP.

BRoth:
Is your Dyno able to handle the abuse of a sustained WOT loading from a stock CTD for 1 hour? I think 1 hour is long enough to reach Steady State conditions within the drivetrain. If you can supply the flow rate through the transmission oil cooler (at 2700 RPM) and place a thermometer on the inlet and outlet lines of the Cooler and if I can find the density of ATF and its specific heat capacity. This experiment can be done.

Now that would be fun, but not as fun as destructive testing.

-Cliff



[This message has been edited by cdaledh (edited 05-05-2001). ]

 

[Joe G.]

Cliff,

I've become a bit dizzy from all the mathmatic gymnastics. My intuitive notion of a 98% efficient TC would be one that the output rotated 98 times for every 100 engine rotations at it's most effective RPM. That would seem to me to be the "rubber meets the road" understanding of TC efficiency.

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Joe George
Eureka, CA

'95 2500 CC auto 4X4,3. 54,Combo EGT/boost guage,custom switch panel,PacBrake,TST #5,DTT TC/VB,Automatic motorhome steps on both sides,Foldacover hard bed cover,Cummins chrome kit,Black steel grill guard,Front hitch receiver

[This message has been edited by Joe G. (edited 05-05-2001). ]

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

REGARDLESS of all the verbage and dissection above, *I* very much want to THANK a major aftermarket supplier for REMEMBERING us fellas with the FIRST generation trucks! Competition is GOOD, can't help but benefit us por 'ol idiot buyers out here in the sticks... #ad


And here is 1 idiot who is VERY interested in upgrading MY 727 with an improved TC - thanks for an additional candidate when that time comes. #ad


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http://community. webshots.com/user/davison71 Early '91 250, 727 AT, 307 rear... Banks Stinger exhaust, intercooler... US Gear OD... Tweaked pump, upgraded radiator... MORE than a match for every new PS Ford encountered so far...

"Dura" WHAT? NOW I know where all those recycled beer cans go...

 

[Dak - BD Power]

I tried not to get involved in this one, and will probably reap the penalties, but here goes...

First, I think the development of aftermarket stator designs are great and can only see a benefit to ALL Dodge owners who can use this technology because the general concensis is that the OEM design s@$ks in the towing and performance areas. #ad


Second, if you look at an automotive text book and see what a stator is supposed to do and how it functions you will see that BOTH the DTT and BD stators are relatively close in what they are designed to do, and that is to REDIRECT fluid and create torque multiplication in the most EFFICIENT way possible and allow the torque convertor to achieve a fluid coupling between the pump and the turbine quickly.

Third, after seeing posts on this site, talking to customers, and actually cutting apart and inspecting torque convertors, I have found that the weakest link in the TC is the lockup clutch. Of all the torque convertors I have looked at, 95% were failures due to lock up clutch burnt, flaking, or slipping/overheating.

These failures are caused by a) too much HP for the TC; b) too much weight for the TC; or c) not enough pressure to hold the lockup clutch applied.

Even when we increase pressures to the lockup clutch we still see failures due to overheating of the OEM design single clutch failure.

Third, the double clutch design increases the holding force of the lockup clutch exponentially (theres a big word I could hardly spell #ad
) We have tested the new BD double clutch designed TC at STOCK pressures and couldn't get it to slip, then at increased pressures and couldn't get it to slip, then towed a trailer with a total GVW of @10,000 lbs up a slope (Hope slide) and STILL COULD NOT GET IT TO SLIP !! #ad
This can only be GOOD for consumers!

I'm sure there will be a lot of comments, good and bad, but I think the customer NOW has a TC that is designed to outperform any and all Dodge OEM torque convertors, but only time will tell. Most of all Dodge owners now have a choice to fill their requirements whether it be towing, BOMBing, or just cruising around town looking for a F#$d PowerChoke to dust #ad


I'm sure that this year's May Madness will be an eye opener for everyone involved and I look forward to hearing, reading, and seeing the results. #ad


Vic Daku
BD Warranty/Tech Support

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Real BOMBers never get speeding tickets. . just a lot of warnings!

 

[KatDiesel]

<font color=blue>Just wondering how are you bonding your "double clutch lining" what method and material are you using for the lining? What is the sq inch of the "new" lining? And the sq inch of the "stock" lining? (just for those that don't know).

Just a couple of curiosity questions I have...

 

[Dak - BD Power]

Kat, I will get you those facts and figures on Mon when I return to work. I will see if I am able to post some pics of them for all to see... drop me an email if you wish for furthur info... Vic

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Real BOMBers never get speeding tickets. . just a lot of warnings!

 

[Diesel Freak]

Originally posted by TDCanuk:
Third, the double clutch design increases the holding force of the lockup clutch exponentially (theres a big word I could hardly spell

Yep,(almost)it is called the 2nd moment of inertia for hollow shaft torque tranmission.
J=(pi/2)(((ro)^4)-((ri)^4)))
ro=outer radius
ri=inner radius

BTW what are the ID's and OD's for the lock up clutch surfaces on your new TC?


[This message has been edited by cdaledh (edited 05-05-2001). ]

 

[rich m]

From cdaledh:
I am just stating that an unlocked TC under FULL LOAD will lose more than 2% of the input energy.
Full Load: Engine at WOT at it's peak HP.

I did address that part of the theory, right after we came back in from "left field"

here's where it begins, from prev. post...
... "Now, let's return from "left field" for a minute.
For a stock-power-level truck engine, the stock TC is adequate, presumably up to GCWR on predominantly flat land.
Not excellent. Just adequate. Stalls (at whatever efficiency percentage) happen at about 1800rpm. Then the ... ... and so on.

 

[Boldt's Wagon]

The only correct efficiency measurement is HP out divided by HP in. The HP in and out is a product of both RPM and torque. The lost efficiency is converted to heat in the torque converter.

There is an "industry standard" for measuring efficiency. The method is described on the SouthWest Research Institute website at: http://www.swri.edu/3PUBS/BROCHURE/D03/trantch/trantch.HTM

Automotive vendors can contract to have their torque converters tested at SWRI. I don't know if their current equipment can test the higher outputs we are discussing.

Using RPM only to indicate efficiency will give wrong results. In any event, a crude test can be made using a dynometer with forced lockup to determine maximum wheel HP at full throttle and various RPMs and repeating the test with a switch that prevents TC lockup and various vendors torque converters.

 

[John]

Originally posted by BRoth:
The Stator only deflects the oil...

Interestingly enough Brian, it was me who suggested to Bill at Dyno Days (April 2000) that he explore the possibility of having a c. n. ced aluminum stator made. Using a 5-axis mill... the possibilities are endless, limited by your imagination and/or ability of the programmer. With this in mind, Bill elected to go a different, more expensive direction, providing a superior product.

As Cliff stated in a previous post (cost not withstanding), titanium would make the ultimate, trick stator.

 

[BRoth]

We are going to have Bill and Joe from STC in Vegas with there Dodge, and cut a way convertors.

The Stator only deflects the oil fellas.

Brian@bd-power

 

[Diesel Freak]

Originally posted by John:
Nothing I hate worse than being the QC (or QA) department for some company that doesn't think enough of their customers to quality check (functional check in this case) their product.

Hehe, WOW that sounds awfully like GM's Philosophy.

Here is an idea..... get rid of those automatic slushboxes... . install a Hydrostatic drive... . A hydraulic pump on the engine interfaced with the ECM (variable stroke rotary piston pump)..... a hydraulic motor on the rear axle (simple gear motor) a couple of hydraulic hoses, and an oil cooler.
This would be a sweeeeeeeeeeeet setup as long as line pressures were kept below 3000 psi #ad

Better yet..... GET A MANUAL transmission!

-Cliff

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2001 ETH-DEE, Diablo Power Puck, Bosch 275's, Practical Solutions Boost Module and Elbow, LFT Silencer Ring Eliminator, K&N, Straight Piped http://www.mudrunner.sites.cc

 

[Diesel Freak]

STATOR=STATIONARY
my head hurts

Elvis has left the building!

-Cliff

[This message has been edited by cdaledh (edited 05-05-2001). ]

 

[MCrossley]

not being a physics major or anything but out of curiosity how do you compress ATF? where does the fluid go when the two lockup clutches engage eachother? Not throwing rocks just asking a question.

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TAZ... 2001 2500 SLT+ 4X4 Auto ETC Cummins, LSD 3. 54,Quad Cab, Long Bed, Agate Leather, White/Driftwood Exterior, Sliding rear window, Camper Special Group, Towing Group, Cab clearance lights,SPA-Technique Digital Dual Gauges (Pyro/Boost, Trans pressure/temp) Aux. Backup lamps. BNM 5th Wheel Hitch, Additional Body Molding on Bed. Line-X bed-liner. DTT's TC & VB, Pac Brake, Power Edge, Edge EZ, Grover Air Horns

2000 32' Aljo Triple Slide 5th Wheel.

http://www.ramtaz.com

Add on's to come: any other Ram Runner required modifications...

 

[Lug-nut]

I have been reading with much interest all of the posts regarding auto transmissions, and torque convertors. I must say that I find it interesting that Mr. Roth has been asked several questions regarding where he gets his numbers, and the discrepancy between his earlier advertising claiming great efficiency for his earlier convertor, and his new posts saying his earlier convertor was not efficient at all. I have yet to see him really answer any questions except to side step the issues, answer with smiley faces, etc. #ad
#ad
#ad


Quote from Mr. Roth's earlier post... . "We are going to have so much fun at may Madness! Convertor efficiency certainly can be measured different ways. Most can only measure it by the seat of there pants. "

I read that as saying all you TDR guys are too ignorant to understand anyway, so just listen to me and I will feed you the numbers you want to hear... . and then I will sit back and collect your hard earned cash.

Someone said it well earlier, there have lots of instances of poor customer service from one of the TC vendors here and many instances of outstanding customer service from another. Having driven trucks equipped with trans mods from both vendors, I for one know where I will spend my money.

Sorry for the rambling post. Flame away guys, I am ready.

[This message has been edited by Craig J (edited 05-07-2001). ]