-
TDR Magazine subscribers receive more than the magazine! You also gain additional forum privileges!
Details here: TDR Privileges
Subscribe to TDR Magazine here: https://www.tdr-online.com/
bomber lite, other mild turbo options for 3G trucks?
- Thread starter DLeno
- Start Date
Attention: TDR Forum Junkies To the point: Click this link and check out the Front Page News story(ies) where we are tracking the introduction of the 2025 Ram HD trucks.
Thanks, TDR Staff
- Status
to expound a bit... . it sounds like everyone that is running the dodgezilla turbo love them with power up to 450 rwhp.
how different is the piers hybrid and the dodgzilla? the only difference i can see is the zilla uses a 40 housing where piers machines your existing housing. the zilla is for 02 and older, i have not gotten a response back from citydiesel as to any 03 zilla applications. the zilla cost more also.
i really like the idea recycling my existing turbo components like piers is doing -- i just would like to have it all: spool, low, mid and high - as close to ball bearing as possible without the price.
signed,
dreamer
how different is the piers hybrid and the dodgzilla? the only difference i can see is the zilla uses a 40 housing where piers machines your existing housing. the zilla is for 02 and older, i have not gotten a response back from citydiesel as to any 03 zilla applications. the zilla cost more also.
i really like the idea recycling my existing turbo components like piers is doing -- i just would like to have it all: spool, low, mid and high - as close to ball bearing as possible without the price.
signed,
dreamer
I don't think you will get a good answer to your question until someone tries the new TST box and finds out just how bad the EGT's are. They designed it for a stock turbo so with a Piers wonder you should surely have better that 50% potential. Purely speculation of course.
-Scott
-Scott
Joseph Donnelly
TDR MEMBER
400 hp really isn't a "mild" hopup. Back when the Cummins dyno'ed 150-180 hp, 400 was considered stratospheric. Now that the 305 hp HO dyno's at 280, 400 doesn't look so far off. However, some things such as lift pump and turbo aren't bigger in proportion to the factory hp increase.
Back when the first gen came out in calendar year 1988 with 160 hp, it had a Holset turbo with 18. 5 sq. cm. turbine housing. Now the engine dynos 120-130 hp higher but uses a turbine housing less than half the area (9 sq. cm. ) This is done for emissions--to have immediate responsiveness and power to compete with other brands, a small housing is needed for instant spool up. This housing becomes the choke point at high power/boost, and especially under power at higher rpm. The 9 sq. cm. translates to a single pipe 1-1/3 of an inch in diameter. Given about a 1/16" wall thickness of most exhaust pipes, that means single exhaust of just under 1. 5" outside diameter tubing. Go tell a serious drag racer that you want to build a 400 hp engine (don't even bother to tell him that is at the WHEELS not the flywheel), and use 1. 5" single exhaust.
Hence, we cannot expect to control exhaust gas temperatures, and moderate the pumping losses on a high hp engine, with an HY35 turbo having a 9 sq. cm. exhaust housing. We are pushing it at about 325 hp at the wheels for sure. Depending on altitude, egt's of the stock HO can approach and even exceed 1300 deg. at that horsepower.
The challenge to turbo companies will be to increase the cross sectional area of the exhaust (turbine) without sacrificing too much ability to spool up the turbo. The compressor side must be big enough to flow more air than stock, and this increase further impairs spool up. Remember the HX-35 turbo in the 12 valve engine. When we reached the 260-280 hp lelvel, we replaced the wastegated 12 sq. cm. exhaust housing with a non-wastegated 16 sq. cm. housing to improve exhaust flow and lower exhaust gas temperatures. The downside was slower spool-up and if fueling was incresed to improve spool up, more smoke was produced during the process. With the 2003-2004 HO engine we are already at 280 hp stock, and are using a tiny 9 sq. cm. housing. We cannot expect to add a large amount of fueling (= horsepower) without making air system upgrades.
Back when the first gen came out in calendar year 1988 with 160 hp, it had a Holset turbo with 18. 5 sq. cm. turbine housing. Now the engine dynos 120-130 hp higher but uses a turbine housing less than half the area (9 sq. cm. ) This is done for emissions--to have immediate responsiveness and power to compete with other brands, a small housing is needed for instant spool up. This housing becomes the choke point at high power/boost, and especially under power at higher rpm. The 9 sq. cm. translates to a single pipe 1-1/3 of an inch in diameter. Given about a 1/16" wall thickness of most exhaust pipes, that means single exhaust of just under 1. 5" outside diameter tubing. Go tell a serious drag racer that you want to build a 400 hp engine (don't even bother to tell him that is at the WHEELS not the flywheel), and use 1. 5" single exhaust.
Hence, we cannot expect to control exhaust gas temperatures, and moderate the pumping losses on a high hp engine, with an HY35 turbo having a 9 sq. cm. exhaust housing. We are pushing it at about 325 hp at the wheels for sure. Depending on altitude, egt's of the stock HO can approach and even exceed 1300 deg. at that horsepower.
The challenge to turbo companies will be to increase the cross sectional area of the exhaust (turbine) without sacrificing too much ability to spool up the turbo. The compressor side must be big enough to flow more air than stock, and this increase further impairs spool up. Remember the HX-35 turbo in the 12 valve engine. When we reached the 260-280 hp lelvel, we replaced the wastegated 12 sq. cm. exhaust housing with a non-wastegated 16 sq. cm. housing to improve exhaust flow and lower exhaust gas temperatures. The downside was slower spool-up and if fueling was incresed to improve spool up, more smoke was produced during the process. With the 2003-2004 HO engine we are already at 280 hp stock, and are using a tiny 9 sq. cm. housing. We cannot expect to add a large amount of fueling (= horsepower) without making air system upgrades.
Just installed dd2's in a 3rd gen. for a guy it also had a ez, AFE kit, muffler eliminated also this is a SO auto. truck.
Took just a few seconds to hit 1400. Talked to piers about it and decided to try one. This was towards the beginning of last week so expecting it soon. Will post results soon as i get it on.
Took just a few seconds to hit 1400. Talked to piers about it and decided to try one. This was towards the beginning of last week so expecting it soon. Will post results soon as i get it on.
The DD turbo, in IMHO, is the only real choice for the 3G trucks. Do it once and do it right. On a stock rig, it will give around 20-25HP. Spoolup is only a tad slower than stock, but the air volume is increased dramatically. Combined with a box or injectors, the performance is excellent.
The "bomber lite" or whatever its called does nothing for the high drive pressures seen on the stock size turbine setup. It may deliver a bit more air, but its all getting choked down in the turbine hosuing! It's a waste of money if you ask me... Since most plan to upgrade their exhaust, why not get a DD turbo with a good downpipe and do it right? I also beleive a lot of guys would be surprised if they could see what their turbo drive pressure is when compared to what is optimum.
Bottom line, the stock turbo has gotta go.
The "bomber lite" or whatever its called does nothing for the high drive pressures seen on the stock size turbine setup. It may deliver a bit more air, but its all getting choked down in the turbine hosuing! It's a waste of money if you ask me... Since most plan to upgrade their exhaust, why not get a DD turbo with a good downpipe and do it right? I also beleive a lot of guys would be surprised if they could see what their turbo drive pressure is when compared to what is optimum.
Bottom line, the stock turbo has gotta go.
Are there any turbo options for the 600 or is that another subject all by itself? Also, what is the general cost for a piers and DD for the 03-04? Do they have better "whistling" capabilties? Sorry about my ignorance, but I never pursued the issue before...
Maybe. I'm at about 300 rwhp and I don't plan to go further until I upgrade the fuel delivery. The high pressure pumps are too expensive to risk when I can spend $300 on new lines and a pump and be sure I'm good.
And I'd go for the exhaust.
Well guys,
In my humble opinion, The DD turbo will not flow enough air with a new Edge box stacked with the EZ. I have ridden in a truck with that turbo, DDII's, EZ, Exhaust, intake. EGT's still get to 1200* pretty fast. By 85 mph they are climbing fast. I have the Stocker on my truck still and can manage EGT's pretty easily. The DDII's don't add to much heat but alot of grunt. Don't get me wrong, I can hit 1400* WOT at 90 MPH. But while towing 14,000 lbs up steep grade, I can keep it under 1100*.
The Piers turbo is coming for my truck, $300 is nothing in the grand scheme of things. I spend that on fuel a month. I will always be able to sell said turbo for almost what I paid for it. I can even put it on the wifes truck if needed. Once Edge, TST, or one of the others come up with something reliable(do you really think it is just a plug that is wrong at TST?) that adds 150 HP to and already BomBed truck, 400 HP, DD's turbo will be too small.
I am waiting for the next big turbo that will handle all the heat we can throw at it. Even the B1B runs hot all the time. Hotter than stock up to about 1300* then levels out. I think we will be better off getting a mild upgrade turbo wise, saving 1350 dollars, and waiting for the next great turbo. Believe me when I say " DD will make a better turbo ASAP"
Greg
In my humble opinion, The DD turbo will not flow enough air with a new Edge box stacked with the EZ. I have ridden in a truck with that turbo, DDII's, EZ, Exhaust, intake. EGT's still get to 1200* pretty fast. By 85 mph they are climbing fast. I have the Stocker on my truck still and can manage EGT's pretty easily. The DDII's don't add to much heat but alot of grunt. Don't get me wrong, I can hit 1400* WOT at 90 MPH. But while towing 14,000 lbs up steep grade, I can keep it under 1100*.
The Piers turbo is coming for my truck, $300 is nothing in the grand scheme of things. I spend that on fuel a month. I will always be able to sell said turbo for almost what I paid for it. I can even put it on the wifes truck if needed. Once Edge, TST, or one of the others come up with something reliable(do you really think it is just a plug that is wrong at TST?) that adds 150 HP to and already BomBed truck, 400 HP, DD's turbo will be too small.
I am waiting for the next big turbo that will handle all the heat we can throw at it. Even the B1B runs hot all the time. Hotter than stock up to about 1300* then levels out. I think we will be better off getting a mild upgrade turbo wise, saving 1350 dollars, and waiting for the next great turbo. Believe me when I say " DD will make a better turbo ASAP"
Greg
Joseph Donnelly
TDR MEMBER
No one has a 2004. 5 yet to see what will be needed to work with the electronic wastegate controller.
The DD turbo as usually sold has no silencer ring and it gives you all the turbo "music" you could want.
The DD turbo is not perfect but none is. It is carefully sized to be very close to stock spool up while accommodating a good hp increase (about 100 loaded/towing, more if the truck is unloaded and making a quick "excursion"). It will be very difficult to retain the good responsiveness with a bigger turbo, with the engine's electronic air fuel control. It also remains to be seen whether a bigger turbo will help with egt's over the DD. Other factors are making it hard to improve egt's more. Could be head, pistons, timing, etc.
The DD turbo as usually sold has no silencer ring and it gives you all the turbo "music" you could want.
The DD turbo is not perfect but none is. It is carefully sized to be very close to stock spool up while accommodating a good hp increase (about 100 loaded/towing, more if the truck is unloaded and making a quick "excursion"). It will be very difficult to retain the good responsiveness with a bigger turbo, with the engine's electronic air fuel control. It also remains to be seen whether a bigger turbo will help with egt's over the DD. Other factors are making it hard to improve egt's more. Could be head, pistons, timing, etc.
it all depends what your end GOAL is!!! mine is 400 rwhp. how you get that ie. with a big box alone or a ez and mild injectors is not as much an issue. after talking extensively with mark at piers there modified stock turbo (they change both sides) will cover you to 400 rwhp! quick spool up more air flow and lower egt's that is what they are offering and for 300 bucks wow what a deal. If your GOAL is more than 400 rwhp then they have other fine turbos to offer you. call mark he is a good guy very knowlegable and can give you all the tecno stuff i cant. my turbo and coated ATS manifold are on the way and i think they will work very well together.
It will be interesting to see how this new Piers modified stock turbo performs. I gota resonate with Joe's comments though about the tiny little 9 cm housing. I wonder why not change the exhaust housing to something bigger? Still, 300 bucks is a pretty small investment, and maybe if its only an "80% solution" (meaning you can't fully utilize the TST box) that might be ok for a short term solution. I worry about pushing the stock turbo beyond its design limits anyway. I just heard of a guy who needs a new block now because his turbo grenaded. He was using the Edge boost elbow and EZ...
CGarling makes a good point which is what I was trying to explore: if your goal is to stop at the TST box or about 400 HP, how far will the Piers handwaving take you towards a turbo capble of handling it? Now then, there's also that Dodgzilla HX40/HX35 Hybrid at 800 bucks. you gotta consider that for another $500 you have the zilla. that (piers/zilla) would be an interesting shootout. and no core charge so you have your stock turbo to put back in if necessary. bb
I thought Piers only changed the geometry of the compressor side (machined it out) and that the exhaust side was untouched. then they balance the exhaust wheel and put in an HX40 (balanced) wheel on the other side. isn't that right? So you have HX40 compressor blowing (through the engine) into a 9 cm housing. What would prevent them from putting in a larger exhaust housing and perhaps an exhaust wheel that was better matched to the HX40 compressor wheel?
What I find interesting is that for my 02, it was generally accepted that you could not acheive 400 without an HX40. Now we see the trend towards smaller exhaust housings and folks claming they can support 400 HP on the 3rd gen with a smaller turbo than would be required on the 2nd gens. The new injection technology must give us some advantage here. are folks over stating it?
CGarling makes a good point which is what I was trying to explore: if your goal is to stop at the TST box or about 400 HP, how far will the Piers handwaving take you towards a turbo capble of handling it? Now then, there's also that Dodgzilla HX40/HX35 Hybrid at 800 bucks. you gotta consider that for another $500 you have the zilla. that (piers/zilla) would be an interesting shootout. and no core charge so you have your stock turbo to put back in if necessary. bb
I thought Piers only changed the geometry of the compressor side (machined it out) and that the exhaust side was untouched. then they balance the exhaust wheel and put in an HX40 (balanced) wheel on the other side. isn't that right? So you have HX40 compressor blowing (through the engine) into a 9 cm housing. What would prevent them from putting in a larger exhaust housing and perhaps an exhaust wheel that was better matched to the HX40 compressor wheel?
What I find interesting is that for my 02, it was generally accepted that you could not acheive 400 without an HX40. Now we see the trend towards smaller exhaust housings and folks claming they can support 400 HP on the 3rd gen with a smaller turbo than would be required on the 2nd gens. The new injection technology must give us some advantage here. are folks over stating it?
Vaughn MacKenzie
TDR MEMBER
Here's another way to look at all this:
The stock turbo should be pitched with any upgrade. Heck, pitch it now! The best answer is a DD or whatever your favorite turbo is that is a significant size increase over stock.
The Piersified stock 3G turbo is the answer for those who can't afford or do not want to shell out the bucks for the "best" turbo upgrade. It will give you a little more room to work with than stock, but not a lot.
Evan Beck is right about cramming all that exhaust out a tiny little housing and running drive pressures sky high. The Piersified 3G turbo does help in that with an improved compressor air temps going into the engine must be cooler which is what is helping lower EGTs and makes up for (slightly) the high drive pressures (which are probably even higher with the Piersified turbo).
If I had the bucks I'd go straight to the DD turbo, but a lot of guys are in my boat where we can't shell out those kinds of bucks, but want and easy quick upgrade to improve over stock.
I belive Piers has only done 1-2 turbos so far since this is a new thing and still wants to do more R&D before more and final opinions are formed about this upgrade.
Vaughn
The stock turbo should be pitched with any upgrade. Heck, pitch it now! The best answer is a DD or whatever your favorite turbo is that is a significant size increase over stock.
The Piersified stock 3G turbo is the answer for those who can't afford or do not want to shell out the bucks for the "best" turbo upgrade. It will give you a little more room to work with than stock, but not a lot.
Evan Beck is right about cramming all that exhaust out a tiny little housing and running drive pressures sky high. The Piersified 3G turbo does help in that with an improved compressor air temps going into the engine must be cooler which is what is helping lower EGTs and makes up for (slightly) the high drive pressures (which are probably even higher with the Piersified turbo).
If I had the bucks I'd go straight to the DD turbo, but a lot of guys are in my boat where we can't shell out those kinds of bucks, but want and easy quick upgrade to improve over stock.
I belive Piers has only done 1-2 turbos so far since this is a new thing and still wants to do more R&D before more and final opinions are formed about this upgrade.
Vaughn
The d/f with the new trucks being able to run cooler temps at higher hp than the older trucks is the pilot injection allows for cooler temps. and the abiltiy to run a small turbine housing safely.
the other fact at hand:
the 3rd gens dont allow much low boost fueling (because of emmissions)
for emissions reasons the ecm has to see boost before it will fuel, therefore D/C opted for the tight , restricted little HY. it spools fast and is just enough turbo for stock HP
More HP = need bigger flow. period.
the other problem is getting around low boost fueling
if you just add a bigger turbo you will actually loose performance without adding fuel at low boost, which the ecm will not allow and I dont know if adding an EZ is enough. Hopefully TST and edge have addressed this with their new boxes.
I dont know that the 3rd gens run much cooler than the 2nds, in fact Ive seen some frightening temps in stock form
the 3rd gens dont allow much low boost fueling (because of emmissions)
for emissions reasons the ecm has to see boost before it will fuel, therefore D/C opted for the tight , restricted little HY. it spools fast and is just enough turbo for stock HP
More HP = need bigger flow. period.
the other problem is getting around low boost fueling
if you just add a bigger turbo you will actually loose performance without adding fuel at low boost, which the ecm will not allow and I dont know if adding an EZ is enough. Hopefully TST and edge have addressed this with their new boxes.
I dont know that the 3rd gens run much cooler than the 2nds, in fact Ive seen some frightening temps in stock form
Last edited:
low boost fueling: TST appears at this time to be the leader here, with settings for "torque" (low end torque) and "HP" (high end torque). It will be very interesting to see how the TST box mates up with various turbos. maybe it will have enough low end oomph to drive a bigger compressor like the B1.
The pressure and timing boxes (i. e. everthing out there now) have no hope of improving the low boost fueling problem. I have high hopes for the duration boxes though! and if TST is smart enough to give the lowend / bhigh end choice, they must have figured out how to deal with low boost fueling, no?
Vaughn, you said it. I could deal with $300 to allow me to use more of the TST box. until I put a better turbocharger on there I'll just pretend I have a 100 HP duration box or something. EGT-based defuling on the box is a real bonus here -- lets you use as much of the box as the air system will support.
I worry about bark on the 6 speeds, since the lowly hy exhaust wheel is driving that big HX40 pinwheel. I just talked to Piers and they said changing the exhaust housing on the stock turbo is not an option. They say 400 HP maximum for this puppy, but that doesn't mean sustained tows on 8% grades in hot weather at that level.
Whats the low down on the B1 versus the DD for 500 HP box/injector trucks?
-Doug
The pressure and timing boxes (i. e. everthing out there now) have no hope of improving the low boost fueling problem. I have high hopes for the duration boxes though! and if TST is smart enough to give the lowend / bhigh end choice, they must have figured out how to deal with low boost fueling, no?
Vaughn, you said it. I could deal with $300 to allow me to use more of the TST box. until I put a better turbocharger on there I'll just pretend I have a 100 HP duration box or something. EGT-based defuling on the box is a real bonus here -- lets you use as much of the box as the air system will support.
I worry about bark on the 6 speeds, since the lowly hy exhaust wheel is driving that big HX40 pinwheel. I just talked to Piers and they said changing the exhaust housing on the stock turbo is not an option. They say 400 HP maximum for this puppy, but that doesn't mean sustained tows on 8% grades in hot weather at that level.
Whats the low down on the B1 versus the DD for 500 HP box/injector trucks?
-Doug
Im sure Joe has much more experience on this than I do. I still have a feeling that when we are hitting 500 HP on daily drivers that going much farther than that (600) Hp will need more air in and out.
True, but the pilot injection goes away at 2700rpm. There isn't enough time at those RPM's to fire the injector multiple times per stroke.
I personally think the 9cm2 housing is just flat out of flow at 330hp+. There is no larger housing available that will directly bolt onto the HY cartridge.
The MB103 KIT we currently sell will work in 300-500rwhp applications. Once the timing/pulsewidth boxes come out, those that want to stack it with a pressure box and injectors will need an even larger turbo to support the EGT's. We have not devised that one yet.
Another thing to note is that the MB103 kit we sell is a KIT. It includes the downpipe, turbo, new intercooler piping, outlet elbow, etc. I don't know what kits are being sold with the B1, but all the previous turbos had straight outlets on them. The HY on the 03/04 was the first with the 90* outlet, requireing some kind of attachment kit to make it work in the truck.
HI,
I have a question. Everyone is talking about turbos and EGT's and some pretty high HP numbers. I have a SO model 2003 and was wondering if SO models get as hot as HO models? I have an EZ and a AFE intake and on level 4 can hit 1050 degrees. I want to add DDII's put might need to add a new turbo for that. Maybe Piers is the way to go for me or will I have to get a whole new turobo?
EAMAN
I have a question. Everyone is talking about turbos and EGT's and some pretty high HP numbers. I have a SO model 2003 and was wondering if SO models get as hot as HO models? I have an EZ and a AFE intake and on level 4 can hit 1050 degrees. I want to add DDII's put might need to add a new turbo for that. Maybe Piers is the way to go for me or will I have to get a whole new turobo?
EAMAN
last year at Torque at the Fort, Rod and a bunch of us were going to install a B1 in his truck. All we needed was a 90 on the compressor side and some hose and all is well. However the turbo came with the wrong exhaust outlet elbow ,if I remember correctly, so it did not get installed. I know rod is running a pretty tight B1 kwikspool now and sounds like it is running beautiful with the EZ. I dont know all the details on how its working , so its probably not my place to comment, but the feeling I got was it may need to be swapped for a B1 with a slightly bigger exh side to cool enough for the level of the TST box . But as far as bolting it up , didnt seam to be much of a challenge as long as you get the correct outlet and the 90 for the compressor side.
- Status
Issue 128 – Digital Version
Digital Magazines
FREE!
TDR Test Drive - Digital Edition
Renew
Subscribe
Gift Subscriptions
Back Issues
Subscription Status
Address Change Form
Buyer's Guides
Ram Diagnostic Trouble Codes
The Perfect Collection
The Perfect Collection Vol. II
TSB Updates
Dodge/Cummins Historical Overview
Cameron Collection
What Makes Us Tick?
Product Showcase
Advertising
Turbo Diesel Register
Issue 128 – Digital Version
Digital Magazines
FREE!
TDR Test Drive - Digital Edition
Renew
Subscribe
Gift Subscriptions
Back Issues
Subscription Status
Address Change Form
Buyer's Guides
Ram Diagnostic Trouble Codes
The Perfect Collection
The Perfect Collection Vol. II
TSB Updates
Dodge/Cummins Historical Overview
Cameron Collection
What Makes Us Tick?
Product Showcase
Advertising
