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Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) caTCHER ecm (Marco's aka MAD)

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Brian

Missouri
 
Marco, you seem to misunderstand my response up above, and apparently disagree with my reasoning on NOT dumping my fully adjustable Comp in favor of your somewhat fixed-tuned MAD (that is, it has a SINGLE program setting)... WELL, you ALSO missed my comment that IF a fella didn't already HAVE a Comp box, or NEED the flexibility it provides for changing needs and uses, the MAD setup would be a good choice!



SO, now you get into the addition of some of the aftermarket power adders, like injectors, increased boost, maybe dual turbos and such - and when the subject of the MAD ECM and appropriate tuning comes up, you say:



"The fact is that we're talking about a very time consuming and expensive job. Let's say for a moment that I work on such a project. All is done, the customer pays what ever comes out at the end... Now to WHOM belongs that software? I mean it wouldn't be nice that the SW tailored for that guy is then used also for others... Even if it's used only as starting point. "



And *I* say that the scenario of various other added power boosters, and varying truck uses, drag racers, RV towing, maybe amateur sled pullers, the ADVANTAGE of the FULLY adjustable Comp with *15* individual power adjustment settings is EXACTLY a product that allows the adjustability for varying uses and mods from the DRIVER'S seat that you admit is difficult or impossible for the MAD ECM in your "design laboratory"!



And that's no criticism, it's pretty much what you have both claimed and DELIVERED with your setup - but comparing a MAD ECM to a Comp box IS apples/oranges, and they will in most cases appeal to different users based upon their specific use and expectations - and perhaps future planned changing engine mod levels.



*I* would probably prefer your ECM to an EZ box on my relatively stock truck, but NOT to my Comp based on my current truck use, or IF future engine mods were anticipated - but that's just MY opinion!



And NO, I would NOT want to double my investment by stacking a Comp, TST or EZ to a MAD ECM in order to obtain the broader adjustment to changing truck uses and mods the MAD ECM does NOT provide - My Comp ALONE does EXACTLY what I want it to do in both casual lightly loaded driving, and also under HEAVY RV towing use - all from the driver's seat!



Need proof of the above? with my Comp ALONE, I can demonstrate that I obtain better power from my stock engine than Bob apparently did with a MAD *and* upgraded injectors - wanna compare relative costs of our power increases? :D



And THAT doesn'r even begin to address the adjustability of the Comp! ;)



MARCO sez:



"One HP is the force needed to lift one kilogram-one meter-in one second.



If you lift the same weight in less time than you've provided more HP.

Pretty self explaining, isn't it?"





YUP - and that definition ALSO describes the function and operation of a DYNO - so why the objection or criticism of some here of using one to evaluate the improvements of the MAD ECM? ;) :D



Marco, you have done an excellent job designing and marketing your setup, and have every right to be proud of it - but you or your various customers would be VERY incorrect to suggest your setup is the "ends-all" power solution for the majority of users - it has a well-earned PLACE in the available selections, but is NOT the final and total answer for everyone! ;)
 
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"Need proof of the above? with my Comp ALONE, I can demonstrate that I obtain better power from my stock engine than Bob apparently did with a MAD *and* upgraded injectors - wanna compare relative costs of our power increases? :D"



Gary, I don't mean to get into a :-{} but isn't this the apple/orange thing? I presume you got your 311 hp & 725 tq with the comp on 5x5, right? Bob got his 65 hp gain & 698 tq with the CaTCHER + mach 2. 5's. That tells me the comp is a great value. I don't think any one disputes that. It does not address the drivability issues though. Things like throttle response & egt's under sustained load. The CaTCHER retails for about the same as a new EZ & by my own experience, I know it has a better bottom end. Bob's dyno run tells me that it has at least & maybe more top end too, but if you want to make as much power as the comp 5x5 your going to need to tap the pump &/or get bigger sticks. That all costs $$'s. Like you said, no one mod is the right thing for every one. Marco has provided us with one heck of a great new option, however & I think you acknowledged that. ;)
 
" It does not address the drivability issues though. Things like throttle response & egt's under sustained load. "



A minor point perhaps - but last time on the dyno, I did 3 pulls - Comp off, Comp at half setting, 3x3, and then a full 5x5 - I got essentially the same HP/TQ as Bob did at 3x3 on the Comp... ;)



As to EGT under sustained loads, that is EXACTLY what I bought the Comp for - we RV, and with the Comp on 5x5, I consistently see no more than 1200 degrees on the hottest days and longest, steepest grades towing.



My last post was primarily a commentary back to Marco as to WHY *I* wasn't about to dump my Comp in favor of the MAD ECM, since he seemingly figured I should...



And by the way, on MY Comp at least, the low-end driveability ALSO increases dramatically as power settings are increased - it is NOT a purely top end, all-out full throttle only improvement. :D



As far as Marco and his ECM, I consider him a genius, and have the GREATEST respect for his ability and integrity!
 
I remember a thread a while back about a melted piston. There was some talk about to much advance for the HO motors & the longer injection event with a wire tap creating excessive heat. It doesn't sound like you have that problem. As for adjustability, I'm about to tap my pump with a Blue Chip APB. I don't really need more power but I'm curious & I'm on that old slippery BOMB slope. :-laf
 
ok guys...



With all of the talk about the comp and the MAD ECM I have to ask this question:



In everyone's humble opinion what is the best possible fueling box "match up" with the MAD ECM and why? I ask because I own a MAD ECM and I am now ready to buy some type of fueling box. After reading the detailed concerns of people running both the comp and the MAD ECM I am now less interested in the comp.



What do you guys think would be the best companion for the MAD ECM that would produce results similar to the comp? I love my MAD ECM and want to keep it. Just looking for the best possible companion. I like the adjustability of the comp so need something similar.



Thanks



Phil
 
phil since you have the first version catcher ecm, look toward the blue chip fueling box or the tst fueling box



either will kick *** over the edge comp box :)
 
"either will kick *** over the edge comp box"



Interesting statement Bob - is there documentation showing that? I don't have reason to doubt your statement, just curious as to if a back-to-back dyno run has been done using the same MAD ECM as the test mule... ;)





"opinions are like #$%%$&^$#, everyone has one... "
 
Do these boxes add timing as well? If they do NOT are you recommending them because the MAD handles the timing only? Anyone have experience with these boxes? If so, can you provide me with some feedback on the differences?



Phil
 
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PRyker said:
... and what is the "second version" ECM? Did I miss out on something?



Phil

Phil, the TST & Blue Chip boxes are fueling only. The CaTCHER handles timing but does some fueling but since it doesn't tap the pump wire it doesn't hold the fuel bypass solenoid shut like the fueling boxes. The Comp does both timing & fueling. It can have some compatibility problems with the CaTCHER since they both deal with timing. The second version of the CaTCHER was developed specifically for use with the Com & stays out of the way of the comps timing. I hope that helps clear the muddy water. :D
 
ok, so then does the MAD ECM's timing take the place of the comps timing? I guess what I am tryng to ask is that if I buy a TST box (I do not need the fancy EGT and Boost on the blue chip stuff) with my MAD ECM will I see similar results as I do with just the comp?



I guess I can see some peoples reaction about the MAD ECM now as I want the adjustability of both fueling and timing or want to choose either one only. The comp gives you that but with the MAD and a TST I really have no control over timing yes?



How much of what the comp does is timing related andat peak HP what are the differences in timing advance from the MAD ECM and the Comp?



Thanks



Phil
 
Phil, you are asking some detailed questions that few can answer & it's getting over my head. I'll tell you what I do know. The things that are adjustable on the Comp are the fueling, by holding the bypass solenoid closed. That makes a longer injection event. The sub levels adjust what manifold pressure those longer events start at. The timing issue is not user adjustable. Blue Chip has an economy box you may not be aware of. The APB or Adjustable Power Box has no gauges & uses a rheostat to adjust the signal to the pump tap. I hope I didn't just muddy the water more. :rolleyes:
 
Gary - K7GLD said:
*I* would probably prefer your ECM to an EZ box on my relatively stock truck, but NOT to my Comp based on my current truck use, or IF future engine mods were anticipated - but that's just MY opinion!



And NO, I would NOT want to double my investment by stacking a Comp, TST or EZ to a MAD ECM in order to obtain the broader adjustment to changing truck uses and mods the MAD ECM does NOT provide - My Comp ALONE does EXACTLY what I want it to do in both casual lightly loaded driving, and also under HEAVY RV towing use - all from the driver's seat!



Need proof of the above? with my Comp ALONE, I can demonstrate that I obtain better power from my stock engine than Bob apparently did with a MAD *and* upgraded injectors - wanna compare relative costs of our power increases? :D



Gary, I think we all understand that you really like your comp box... ... . so why are you in here trying to argue a moot point about what the CaTCHER does and doesn't do? :confused:



Nobody is forcing you to buy one, so why all the hoopla. :confused:



I know you stated about the respect you have for Marco and his abilities, I guess I am just trying to figure out, if you dont want one and like your Comp, why are you complaining about the Mad CaTCHER?



Personally for me this just might be the ticket. With my EZ installed and , YES, DYNOED... I only gained 39 horsepower... but I gained almost 200 Ft. lb of TQ. Let say I get about 50- 60 actual horsepower to the ground, With the Ecm by Marco, I am still getting more for MY $$ than I would/did with the EZ.



This software that Marco has come up with is a credit to Marco's ability and talent. Thanks Marco, and I dont even have one yet... :-laf ( Key Word... YET )
 
I actually like what Gary says. He and I are the only one's who actually ask the question's nobody else wants to.



Not speaking for Gary but I bet his motives are the same as mine. We would love to buy the catcher but we dont want it to be a waste of money. We all know the benifets of it on a mild engine w/o a box. We love our comp box's and and would like to see a side by side comparison between the (Drag Comp/ MAD ECM comp version) and (TST/MAD ECM) with dyno and track results.



That's not really asking alot if you sak me



Now that I'm going w/ twins I doubt the catcher will be for me unless someone tells me otherwise or if it comes w/ a 30 dat moneyback garrentee, hey that a great idea.



30 Day Money Back Garentee



That will shut all of us up... . in a good way



:)
 
"You make good points about a lot of topics, but my question I guess is why continue to worry so much about what the CATCHER is if you don't have any interest in it?"



WELL, Dan - I guess that if my points ARE "good points", there's really no reason to be upset about them or resent them, is there! ;)



Further, regardless of MY personal needs as to added power, I *DO* have friends and relatives driving trucks like mine - so how about cutting me some slack so I can determine whether ths ECM is something I can comfortably steer THEM to!



YES, I had my Comp before the MAD ECM hit the scene, and like most here, initially was waiting to see exactly WHAT it is capable of, and whether it IS a reasonable replacement for a Comp, or perhaps just another path to a different power goal.



Like a few others who share my genuine interest, I have seen a fair share of wild-eyed claims and "Seat-of-the-pants" pronouncements as to what the ECM is capable of - but precious LITTLE actual documentation - and sorry, but SOME of us simply don't BUY stuff based on the seat of someone elses pants!



So, bottom line, *I* ask questions and make comments here because I am genuinely interested in stuff like this, and because I prefer to separate rank BS from actual FACT...



You have a problem with that? :D ;)
 
All,

Darkhorse sez:

Bob got his 65 hp gain & 698 tq with the CaTCHER + mach 2. 5's



It is my understanding that Bob's truck gained about 66 ponnies from the CaTCHER alone. All he did was to swap a stock ECM with a CaTCHERized one. Did I get that wrong? Bob, please chime in.



Gary, reading ( not actually, too much stuff, I remember what you said ) what you said in this thread, you were wanting a CaTCHER but wanted to know dyno numbers first. Bob provided us those numbers. Still not enough, you want now dyno #'s for CaTCHER combined with different boxes. Then it's that your box is better, adjustabel, more Hp... . blah blah blah...



Makes me wonder...



Last one...

I've never even thought that my product is better than, or the best on the market.

Different toys for different people. To each his own.



Cheers,

Marco
 
BigDan said:
Now that I'm going w/ twins I doubt the catcher will be for me unless someone tells me otherwise or if it comes w/ a 30 dat moneyback garrentee, hey that a great idea.



30 Day Money Back Garentee



That will shut all of us up... . in a good way





I believe Bob Wagner offers a money back garentee... ... . last I knew anyhow.



:eek:
 
KatDiesel said:
I believe Bob Wagner offers a money back garentee... ... . last I knew anyhow.



:eek:



I do believe every one who has actually run a MAD CaTCHER in their truck wants to keep it. The seat of my pants told me it works better than the EZ I took out & Bob's dyno testing confirmed it. :D Still, I hope Bob gets the graphs up soon just because I want to see the shape of the curve.
 
Marco,



What I would like to see is a detailed explanation of how the CaTCHER effects timing? DOes it retard timing to produce the quicker reaction times? How does that compare to what the Comp does? I ask because I want to understand this better. I love my MAD ECM but now I also want the adjustability and additional fueling coupled with the optimal timing. I can get the fueling with the TST box but want to understand the timing better for the Mad ECM.



Thanks



Phil
 
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