Ceramic Tile Problem??

[CROW]

Had new 18" ceramic tile installed in the kitchen, half-bath and utility room. The cost was substantial. Install was done by a self-employed independent contractor for the company where I bought the tile. This company has a good reputation and the sales person is reputable to my knowledge. While installing new baseboards, I laid a hammer down on a tile and heard a hollow sound. Well, 17 of the tiles (probably about a fifth of the total) appear to have a void between the bottom of the tile and the thin set (guess that is what they use under the tile). When tapped with a tablespoon, a distinct hollow sound comes from portions of the 17 tiles in question. After I found the first "hollow" tile I called the company and they agreed to replace that tile and I had no problem with that at the time. However, I then checked and found the other problem tiles

Questions:

1. Do I have a problem? The fella who installed it told me the tile would never crack, but it is obvious he doesn't want to come back on a job he's already been paid for.

2. Should I insist that the 17 tiles with a hollow sound, indicating a void be replaced? Install was two weeks ago so they should be able to get tile from the same dye lot.

3. Should I insist that the entire floor be removed and replaced? If they replace such a large percentage (the 17 at issue), appears we could have a problem matching all the grout lines and generally weakening or even chipping the tiles adjacent to the ones with a void when they are removed.



Thanks in advance to anyone who can give me some input.

 

[Whitmore]

Some tile can be amazingly strong and these voids maynot be an issue pending on traffic and weight, its the weight of say a table leg exerted in a small area that could stress crack the mentioned tiles, I would talk to the installer or the supplier and see if they would stand behind the job in the future if indeed the tiles do crack. If they wont then I would have them rework the problem areas and also try to get some money back for the shoddy work, you are correct that the grout lines will notbe as good as original.



Cheers, Kevin

 

[RT66DOC]

They may never crack but they sure shouldn't sound hollow as you describe. Been there done that. Cheesy job. Exact same thing happened to my brother - the company eventually redid his whole floor. If that happened to us, my wife, our inhouse quality control officer, wouldn't let me rest til I ripped em a new one and either had the whole job done over right or got the $$$ back. Lots of resources - BBB, attorney general's office, fair trade, etc. Sorry for your trouble. Good luck.

 

[JPope]

Substrata?

What is the substrata under the tile, concrete, plywood, particle board, (if so how many layers, and how was it installed, joint locations in sheets?)? Do the tiles that have the hollow sound appear to be in any pattern (like over joists or not over joists if on plywood, maybe movement broke the bond w/ mastic). What was the flooring prior to the tile?, maybe this was not correctly removed or mitigated? If new, maybe contamination from something spilled on floor?

If hollow sound is occurring in one area of the floor, maybe the mastic was contaminated, or partially cured in that area prior to installing tile. Maybe the installer got interrupted in the installation and that area is the problem? Maybe that one area has more substrata movement that broke the bond?

*********

Did the installer state any concerns about the substrata prior to laying the tile. Type of substrata and installation of same may be the problem and if so the installer should have noted this to you prior to installation, so you could make informed decision!!!



Lots of reasons possible for the hollow sound, including bad installation and factors beyond the tile installers control (though he should have informed you prior to beginning) and even ones that he may not have noticed?



Trying to help you isolate the problem and then you are better informed as to where this should go and how to pursue.

GOOD LUCK!!!!

 

[fkovalski]

18” tiles have a large surface area of which to adhere to the sub floor. In this instance (8” or larger) they must be “back buttered” to assure proper adhesion between the two mating surfaces. One cannot apply the proper amount of pressure during installation to make the mating surfaces meet with out applying the thinset to BOTH surfaces! Another way to tell if any voids are present under the tiles in question is to pull a length of chain across the tiles. The sound differentiation between properly adhering tiles and ones with gaps will be noticeable in the sound. If and when you do remove the tiles in question, look to see how the pieces come up- If they come off in large pieces (i. e. 4 or 5 pieces as opposed to many small ones) chances are that there was not proper adhesion. You will also see that there is not tinset on those removed pieces. Many small pieces mean that there was good coverage of the mastic. Large tiles such as yours are a b!^ch to install! Point loads (high heels, table legs etc... ) will puncture improperly installed tiles.

I had a problem similar to yours in a lodge building that I designed. We had to go through many tests (core drilling of the slab, TCA specialists inspections…) but we could not determine what the cause was. Structure was determined to not be a factor. We now spec a slip shield in all our projects from now on as an insurance factor. It’s a cheap addition especially when we are looking at the potential cost of replacing tiles in some 100 or more lodge units. If you need further assistance you can always contact the Tile Council of America. Their consultations are not cheap.





Tile Council of America

 

[CROW]

Thanks for the responses. Will try to get the handbook that is available on-line from the Tile Council of America. Think I'll ask for an entire new floor since I plan to live in this house a long time (not that I'll get it but I'm gonna ask). The tile is installed on a concrete slab. I watched the installer and do not remember him placing thin set on the tile, best I remember he placed it on the concrete floor only. Bet fkovalski hit the nail on the head with his response that the bottom of the tile should be butterred as well as the concrete floor.

 

[Paychk]

Another aspect to consider is the size of the tile 18" sq. is a rather large size and there is a min. spec for the flatness of the floor, also the flex of a floor should be considered, just not in this case. ANSI A 108 is the standard for tile installation, this represents a consensus of the minimum standards for tile to ensure a quality installation. The recommendations for a thin-bed installation are as follows:



1. sud-floors must be level and flat to within 1/8" in 10'



2. no abrupt irregularities in sub layers greater than 1/32"



3. finished surface installed on a smooth, even plane to within 1/8" in 8'.



Usually a flatbed method is used directly on concrete, was a build up mortar bed installed prior to the tile? When tiles are 12" sq. and larger the recommendation is to comb out the thin-set in a single direction only, this minimizes the chance of trapping air under a tile.



PS between the above recommendations and back butter there shouldn't be a problem.

 

[fkovalski]

Another thought....

One think that I forgot to mention is the proper size notch trowel must be used. I am not making any judgement towards your tile contractor, but if he is inexperienced and uses a large notch trowel (as used in the case of smaller tiles w/o back buttering) then further lack of adhesion will occur. Large tiles require smaller notches for a better spread in the two surfaces. Also- (but don't hold me to it... ) I believe that the notch pattern on the buttered tile ought to be installed at 90 dergrees anlge to the direction on the spread on the floor surface. They should be "slid- installed" firmly into position as no amount of external pressure will seat them properly.

-frank.

 

[daveshoe]

How long was it after tile were installed and before joints were grouted? I like to see a minimum of 24 hours, but 48 is better. Also that ''hollow sound '' is present before cure develops and this can also happen when the tile are walked on before set time takes place.

A slip sheet is the best assurance of a good bond and not many people know what it is. It allows some expansion of substrate without breaking the tile bond. It is made from polyethelyne ''grid'' which locks to the tile and a polyester fiber which bonds to the floor. This stuff is in the ''pro '' supply houses , but I have not seen it in big box stores yet

''Quote -- We now specify slip sheet''