Def Delete Kit

[dfb]

If a truck is modded with a delete, a dealer will not work on it and will not take it in on trade. The def allows the manufacturer to tune the engine for more power and torque. Our trucks run fantastic and I see no reason to fix what's not broken. If the truck is sold to a private party cut the value about 80 percent. It means the truck was raced and beat the heck out of...I would not buy a truck that was chipped, deleted, cold air intake, cat backed etc... I sold my 04.5 for 8000 over kbb because it was left alone...

 

[Newsa]

http://www.trucktrend.com/how-to/ex...standing-diesel-exhaust-fluid-basic-training/

 

[Newsa]

If a truck is modded with a delete, a dealer will not work on it.

Is this because their equipment won't get the correct readings? Or is it because they will not be able to warranty what work is done on it?

Is this statement true? Because i find it difficult to believe they won't take your money.

 

[skiploder]

Is this because their equipment won't get the correct readings? Or is it because they will not be able to warranty what work is done on it?

Is this statement true? Because i find it difficult to believe they won't take your money.

Sold my deleted 2012 to a dealer. Told them I would get it back to stock, they told me not to bother......went over what was done with the head tech and handed them over a box of parts.

Truck was deleted with sims only.

 

[Osteoblast]

Pre DEF you had to use a ton of EGR to meet NOx emissions. You couldn't burn the DPF clean at WOT pulling a 28' cargo trailer on a good grade as the soot coming out of the engine would plug the DPF just as fast as it burned off. Delete the DPF and leave EGR alone the engine will be smoking worse than a NA 6.2 GM diesel on a grade towing. (Non DEF engines that is.) The DPF has to deal with a lot of soot from all the EGR to keep NOx in control. This is why emissions equipment and turbos plugged solid with soot before DEF was allowed.

This is why VW is in so much trouble - they just cut the EGR back and let NOx go to get less DPF clogging and less needed regens. It's the EPA's fault for the stupid insane NOx limits and for not allowing DEF to be used instead of massive EGR because you had to add a fluid. The EPA didn't want to allow DEF at first.

DEF just reduces the NOx in the exhaust. So with reduced NOx you don't need as much DPF clogging EGR to be used. This is why EGR comes up with DEF all the time.

The EPA's government stupidity run amuck is costing you and me MPG and money. Cummins was ready to go with DEF and not being able to use it plus wanting to meet emissions early cost a big chunk of their RAM Cummins reputation. I understand the people responsible for this early emissions stupidity/cost to you and I/warranty nightmare from Ram/Cummins are no longer employed there. Good riddance! Sadly the new emissions limits affected all diesels and some people are dead as the ambulance stalled out due to emissions... No one from the EPA was fired for the reliability nightmare they gave diesels. Same for the toxic river spill that they then covered up with by going after VW for something you can't see unlike the orange river...

High Sulfur Diesel plugging the DPF is like high Zinc oil ruining cats. Mexico doesn't have ULSD and there isn't a lot of trouble with DPF's there in context of the average trouble with them here on ULSD. Again some theory like global warming, R12 ozone layer issues, and zinc in oil reducing cat life.

So no, you don't have to delete your emissions equipment in other countries. Now if you don't want to suffer problems like the Americans that have higher emissions than European countries then this is the reason to delete.

The government has no concept of a diminishing marginal returns curve re emissions.....Every year they ascend to the mountaintop, returning with a NEW set of commandments.

 

[Osteoblast]

Motor breaths clean air, simply expels burnt air. Suck/compress-bang-blow. Not suck clean air, add used air, compress, implode, expel, add def, test the air for proper burn and no soot, hope there isn't a code and then do all over again

That was awesome.

 

[tractorhauler]

Cali should be some other color but that is a whole nuther discussion.

 

[KPear]

The EPA's government stupidity run amuck is costing you and me MPG and money. Cummins was ready to go with DEF and not being able to use it plus wanting to meet emissions early cost a big chunk of their RAM Cummins reputation. I understand the people responsible for this early emissions stupidity/cost to you and I/warranty nightmare from Ram/Cummins are no longer employed there. Good riddance! Sadly the new emissions limits affected all diesels and some people are dead as the ambulance stalled out due to emissions... No one from the EPA was fired for the reliability nightmare they gave diesels. Same for the toxic river spill that they then covered up with by going after VW for something you can't see unlike the orange river...

I agree with much of what you said about how DEF works in relation to the EGR and DPF. However, this I'm not so sure on. Where did you read that it was the EPA which originally forbid DEF/SCR to be used in the diesel emissions systems? I had always understood that it was a conscious choice on the OEM's part to avoid using DEF for the sake of simplicity (in hindsight, that proved to be a critical error for all of the North American diesel makers). The OEM's realized their error and started addded SCR's to their engines starting around 2011.

So no, you don't have to delete your emissions equipment in other countries. Now if you don't want to suffer problems like the Americans that have higher emissions than European countries then this is the reason to delete.

^lol. You've got your wires crossed there. America has far less pollution problems (to include less particulate matter and NOx) due to its strict EPA regulations. Europe's pollution regulations, especially in regards to diesels, are far less stringent and their air quality has suffered as a result. It's gotten to the point where many European cities will periodically ban diesel vehicles during periods of bad smog. Many city mayors have declared their intentions to ban diesels entirely within the 10-15 years. I don't know if their plans will change with the advent of new emissions technologies.

I agree the EPA could have handled the diesel emissions issue much better here in the States. Regardless of that, our air quality has definitely benefited from the tighter emissions regulations we have here.

Diesel emissions technology sucked early on. In recent years, especially with the addition of SCR/DEF, they have become more reliable and efficient. I predict that trend will continue, so long as there is a strong consumer demand for diesel vehicles.

The egr system is more of a handicap and opens up more avenues for problems. Byes, a deletion would absolutely increase longevity and durability and dependability. Cummins only installs them bc they have to if they want to sell any motors.

By how much would a delete increase engine longevity? I think people who make those kinds of statements are relying on anecdotal evidence. The modern emissions-laden (SCR) trucks have proven to last just as long as the older, pre-emissions ones. Don't buy into the hype.

Sure for Northamerica it isn't big deal about fuel quality - here in Europe it is, soon after leaving the EU the fuel quality drops bottom less, a lot of people and commercial transport companys have problems because of that.

That's valid point, for now. Eventually the rest of the world will want to stop breathing crappy air and they'll get on board with the ULSD and diesel emissions strategies. It's only a matter of time.

 

[JR]

By how much would a delete increase engine longevity? I think people who make those kinds of statements are relying on anecdotal evidence. The modern emissions-laden (SCR) trucks have proven to last just as long as the older, pre-emissions ones. Don't buy into the hype.

No EGR and no late fuel injection event during Regen is not hype, and neither can be considered anything but detrimental long term for the engine.

 

[JR]

If a truck is modded with a delete, a dealer will not work on it and will not take it in on trade. The def allows the manufacturer to tune the engine for more power and torque. Our trucks run fantastic and I see no reason to fix what's not broken. If the truck is sold to a private party cut the value about 80 percent. It means the truck was raced and beat the heck out of...I would not buy a truck that was chipped, deleted, cold air intake, cat backed etc... I sold my 04.5 for 8000 over kbb because it was left alone...

You are certainly entitled to your own opinion, but your reasoning is slightly flawed. I for one have already had one DEF related issue that cost me a nail biter of a ride home staring at the 200 mile countdown to self destruct message, an unpleasant trip to the dealer and an even more unpleasant bill. One more of those experiences and mine is deleted, and my reasoning is not because I abuse my truck or any other stereotype. It's not even the maintenance or the cost of upkeep that necessarily bothers me but I find it absolutely unacceptable to be limited to 200 measly miles when an emissions device decides to crap out. If this is how EPA thinks they are going to enforce their unobtanium they can pound it. I'll take my chances on the dark side.

 

[spoon059]

I find it absolutely unacceptable to be limited to 200 measly miles when an emissions device decides to crap out.

Doubt it'll change your mind, but the truck won't shut off or go into limp mode when your 200 miles is up. I had that happen while headed to the lake for a week last year. I had no choice but to drive home and pray for no limp mode. It took about 300 miles after the 200 mile warning light and I got home with no problems. I parked the truck overnight before taking it to the dealer the following morning. Even after being turned off and sitting, there was no issue with a restart the next day and I drove 15 miles to the dealer with no limp mode or shut down.

Dealer replaced a "bad sensor" under warranty. I'd hate to think of the cost outside of warranty... but I think the fear is over nothing.

 

[JR]

Spoon I'd say your pretty lucky. Plenty of accounts of people hitting that wall so I'd be hesitant to try it again that's for sure. I was told after the fact by a reputable source that you can indeed go past 200 miles so long as you don't shut it down or refuel once you've exceeded the 200 mile timer. My issue was specifically the DEF injector.

 

[KPear]

No EGR and no late fuel injection event during Regen is not hype, and neither can be considered anything but detrimental long term for the engine.

Are you aware of how the modern (with SCR) emissions work?

Plenty of owners of these newer 6.7l's have been getting into high mileage with stock engines.

Diesel has some amount of lubricity (unlike gasoline) so a little bit of fuel contamination in the engine oil is not the end of the world.

The newer engines are designed to operate with some amount of soot. As well, the newer injection systems and the downstream exhaust treatment (SCR) have reduced both the frequency and some of the negative side effects of EGR.

I think a lot of people have a poor understanding of how these newer emissions-laden engines work and tend to make mountains out of molehills. If you do the proper maintenance, these engines will last a long time.

 

[Jim W]

I agree with much of what you said about how DEF works in relation to the EGR and DPF. However, this I'm not so sure on. Where did you read that it was the EPA which originally forbid DEF/SCR to be used in the diesel emissions systems? I had always understood that it was a conscious choice on the OEM's part to avoid using DEF for the sake of simplicity (in hindsight, that proved to be a critical error for all of the North American diesel makers). The OEM's realized their error and started addded SCR's to their engines starting around 2011.

That is one of the reason Caterpillar killed the on US highway engine and set us back 9 to 12 months in the design phase of meeting the tier IV bin 5 emission compliance for off highway engines. The Cat engines were design to use DEF and not the regressive EGR/DPF that was introduce in 2010 on the off highway engines. Around 2008 The EPA made an announcement to the engine manufacturing industry that DEF would not be allowed because they were not sure of the benefits and if the infrastructure would be in place to support the use of DEF.

I spent a lot of long hours with the rest of the off-highway design teams on tractors trying to squeeze in the extremely larger DPF filter under the hood on most tractors and removing the plumbing for the DEF system.

 

[JR]

KPear, please explain how reingesting exhaust gasses through the intake to be burned again in cylinder is not detrimental to an engine or better than EGR free. Your assumption that engines are designed to operate with soot is seriously flawed. Ever tear apart an intake or a turbo or a cooler after a few hundred thousand miles? If you can make a believer out of me that any part of EGR is beneficial to an engine I'll admit my knowledge of diesel engines (which I've rebuilt several of in agricultural applications) is less than I thought it was.

 

[KPear]

KPear, please explain how reingesting exhaust gasses through the intake to be burned again in cylinder is not detrimental to an engine or better than EGR free. Your assumption that engines are designed to operate with soot is seriously flawed. Ever tear apart an intake or a turbo or a cooler after a few hundred thousand miles? If you can make a believer out of me that any part of EGR is beneficial to an engine I'll admit my knowledge of diesel engines (which I've rebuilt several of in agricultural applications) is less than I thought it was.

You're muddying the waters here. I never said that EGR was beneficial to the engine. I'm simply saying that it isn't as detrimental as some people make it out to be.

The EGR doesn't cycle as much on the newer engines due to the SCR. As well, there is routine maintenance (67k cleaning intervals for the EGR valve) that needs to be followed and the OEM's recommend using low-ash oil to help mitigate the effects of EGR and DPF active regen's. These engines are in fact designed to run in a somewhat dirtier operating cycle.

In an ideal world, we wouldn't have to deal with this stuff. But emissions laws are what they are. That said, there are plenty of owners out there with high mileage diesel engines who have done nothing more than routine maintenance. If the EGR is killing the longevity of these newer engines, I'd ask you to make a compelling argument demonstrating a quantitative difference in lifespan between a stock and deleted 6.7l cummins. Simply saying that EGR kills the engine's longevity does nothing to prove your point.

And truth to be told, I'd rather follow the advice and guidance of an OEM engineer than someone who has a little bit of experience tinkering with agricultural diesels.

 

[JR]

I'm not muddying anything. I stand by my original statement that you discredited. As to your statement about following advise of the engineers that designed the engine ask yourself why EGR is there in the first place. Answer - the cheapest solution of the reduction of nox - at the expense of you the owner.
You are entitled to listen to whoever you choose, but to think the negative effects that come with EGR have no bearing on your engine or wallet is short sighted.

 

[KPear]

I'm not muddying anything. I stand by my original statement that you discredited.

You are muddying the waters. You asked me to prove that EGR was beneficial to the engine's health. I never argued that the EGR was beneficial, rather I stated that it is not as detrimental as you make it out to be.

You are entitled to listen to whoever you choose, but to think the negative effects that come with EGR have no bearing on your engine or wallet is short sighted.

Please reread my earlier comments. I implicitly acknowledge that the EGR could have some negative effects on the engine. But I'm pointing out with the proper maintenance, those effects on the engine's longevity will likely be marginal, at best. There are plenty of high mileage stock rigs which validate that point.

I don't like the EGR and DPF any more than you do. But I do think that people tend to exaggerate the problems associated with these newer systems (hence my earlier comment about making mountains out of molehills).

 

[Newsa]

You are certainly entitled to your own opinion, but your reasoning is slightly flawed. I for one have already had one DEF related issue that cost me a nail biter of a ride home staring at the 200 mile countdown to self destruct message, an unpleasant trip to the dealer and an even more unpleasant bill. One more of those experiences and mine is deleted, and my reasoning is not because I abuse my truck or any other stereotype. It's not even the maintenance or the cost of upkeep that necessarily bothers me but I find it absolutely unacceptable to be limited to 200 measly miles when an emissions device decides to crap out. If this is how EPA thinks they are going to enforce their unobtanium they can pound it. I'll take my chances on the dark side.

Your truck will never derate into limp mode.

You can thank Ram engineers and EGR for that

http://www.trucktrend.com/how-to/ex...standing-diesel-exhaust-fluid-basic-training/

 

[Newsa]

You are certainly entitled to your own opinion, but your reasoning is slightly flawed. I for one have already had one DEF related issue that cost me a nail biter of a ride home staring at the 200 mile countdown to self destruct message, an unpleasant trip to the dealer and an even more unpleasant bill. One more of those experiences and mine is deleted, and my reasoning is not because I abuse my truck or any other stereotype. It's not even the maintenance or the cost of upkeep that necessarily bothers me but I find it absolutely unacceptable to be limited to 200 measly miles when an emissions device decides to crap out. If this is how EPA thinks they are going to enforce their unobtanium they can pound it. I'll take my chances on the dark side.

Your truck will never derate into limp mode.

You can thank Ram engineers and EGR for that


Currently, the only exception to this is the ’13-and-newer Ram HD trucks, which will continue to run and not de-rate power if the DEF tank should happen to run dry. This is allowed because the Cummins 6.7L engine tuning produces a low enough amount of NOx on its own, without the aid of SCR. However, drivers will still be treated to a dash full of warning lights and more frequent DPF regeneration cycles, so it’s best to not let the DEF run dry.

http://www.trucktrend.com/how-to/ex...standing-diesel-exhaust-fluid-basic-training/