Def Delete Kit

[JR]

KPear, I think your still missing my point. Reliability aside I don't agree with the fact we are now tied to a dealership for life if we choose to keep our vehicles stock. I've always done my own repairs beyond warranty and that option is no longer available if you own a diesel pickup. Chrysler doesn't make their software available to the general public which means there is no way to be able to communicate with the vehicle to diagnose and repair. The only alternative is technically an illegal one. This has been a real problem in the agricultural community. Imagine spending $150k on a piece of equipment and having it derate half way through harvest season. Good luck getting a field tech to your door in this neck of the woods your looking at a minimum of 10 days out just to get someone to look at it. Which forces a trip to the dealership, If you don't have a low boy your looking at a thousand dollar ride just to get it there and your still at the mercy of their schedule and parts availability. Meanwhile precious days are lost in the field that you'll never get back. All over an emissions related component that has no bearing on the functionality of the tractor. Thats a real life example btw. We've changed an engine in a combine in the field and been down a fraction of the time compared to when an ammonia sensor in the AOC failed. It's created hardships on such a vast level regulators are considering amending the dmca to force Ag OEMs to make their software available to owners for the purpose of diagnosis/repair. All OEMs are essentially creating a monopoly in keeping their software locked up. Do we really own our equipment (trucks) or not?

 

[jhenderson]

This is where a national right to repair act would benifit all of us. It's one thing congress could do that would actually help, but apparently they aren't truly in the business of helping the citizens of this country. It's much easier to bicker and accomplish nothing.

 

[Jim W]

I'm saying the 6.7l derate is not a common occurrence. If owners keep their DEF full and follow the proper maintenance procedures, there is a high probability they'll be trouble-free.

The bad apple stories get picked out and passed on because everyone gravitates towards drama.

So yes, maybe you can find a few examples of people having trouble with their SCR or other emissions systems. But for every one of those, how many more trouble-free vehicles are there that never get talked about?

Wrong, My son's 2013.5 never went below 1/2 tank full and he always used a name brand DEF for his truck. Drove the truck 35 miles one way to work and than back. When it started to get cold around November (2017) or so he started to have issues with the DEF system. Several codes were popping up so, he borrowed my code reader and it was the Def system that was causing these codes. There was a recall for a sensor on his year truck 2013.5, but the US dealers would not honor this recall or any other one for that matter. His truck was a used Canadian truck bought in IA. from a car dealer.

He had a Ram certified diesel mechanic who works at a local Chrysler dealership look at the truck and he said that the system needed to be replaced with all new components. Will my son struggled with this for a little while until the ECM started to flash that the truck was going to de-rate and go into limp mode within 200 miles. The Mileage kept winding down until he had only 5 miles to go. That is when the truck went under the knife for surgery and has been fixed. Per this mechanic he has seen a lot of early 2013.5 and up trucks for DEF issues in this dealership.

 

[Deleted member 995608]

Wrong, My son's 2013.5 never went below 1/2 tank full and he always used a name brand DEF for his truck. Drove the truck 35 miles one way to work and than back. When it started to get cold around November (2017) or so he started to have issues with the DEF system. Several codes were popping up so, he borrowed my code reader and it was the Def system that was causing these codes. There was a recall for a sensor on his year truck 2013.5, but the US dealers would not honor this recall or any other one for that matter. His truck was a used Canadian truck bought in IA. from a car dealer.

He had a Ram certified diesel mechanic who works at a local Chrysler dealership look at the truck and he said that the system needed to be replaced with all new components. Will my son struggled with this for a little while until the ECM started to flash that the truck was going to de-rate and go into limp mode within 200 miles. The Mileage kept winding down until he had only 5 miles to go. That is when the truck went under the knife for surgery and has been fixed. Per this mechanic he has seen a lot of early 2013.5 and up trucks for DEF issues in this dealership.

This is why I'll never buy a 1st gen vehicle after a re-design. Too many quirks to work out.

 

[JR]

This is where a national right to repair act would benifit all of us. It's one thing congress could do that would actually help, but apparently they aren't truly in the business of helping the citizens of this country. It's much easier to bicker and accomplish nothing.

That's the avenue farmers are taking to get control back of their equipment. John Deere in particular is fighting this tooth and nail but apparently big ag has enough pull that a few states are starting to push legislative bills centered around the fair repair act. As much of a fight as it's been for them considering the financial hardships many have faced, it's hard to imagine us as individual consumers having a leg to stand on here.

 

[KPear]

KPear, I think your still missing my point. Reliability aside I don't agree with the fact we are now tied to a dealership for life if we choose to keep our vehicles stock. I've always done my own repairs beyond warranty and that option is no longer available if you own a diesel pickup. Chrysler doesn't make their software available to the general public which means there is no way to be able to communicate with the vehicle to diagnose and repair. The only alternative is technically an illegal one. This has been a real problem in the agricultural community. Imagine spending $150k on a piece of equipment and having it derate half way through harvest season. Good luck getting a field tech to your door in this neck of the woods your looking at a minimum of 10 days out just to get someone to look at it. Which forces a trip to the dealership, If you don't have a low boy your looking at a thousand dollar ride just to get it there and your still at the mercy of their schedule and parts availability. Meanwhile precious days are lost in the field that you'll never get back. All over an emissions related component that has no bearing on the functionality of the tractor. Thats a real life example btw. We've changed an engine in a combine in the field and been down a fraction of the time compared to when an ammonia sensor in the AOC failed. It's created hardships on such a vast level regulators are considering amending the dmca to force Ag OEMs to make their software available to owners for the purpose of diagnosis/repair. All OEMs are essentially creating a monopoly in keeping their software locked up. Do we really own our equipment (trucks) or not?

You do own your truck. You can still repair it DIY. There are aftermarket code readers (which are not illegal). There are plenty of emissions systems being sold second-hand on the used market and there are even some aftermarket vendors starting to develop EPA-compliant emissions systems.

If you really want to, you can in fact diagnose and repair your modern diesel truck. I just don't know how many owners want to spend their time and money doing that. Similarly, I don't know how many owners of modern gasoline vehicles want to do that either. Modern automobiles are much more complicated than yesterday's and require a level of expertise that most owners are not interested in attaining.

If you're really worried about getting ripped off by the dealership network (which is an ongoing problem for all owners, not just diesel owners) look for independent diesel repair shops. The pricing and service is usually much better.

It's not illegal nor is it impossible for owners to diagnose and self-repair modern diesel vehicles. OEM's across the board, both diesel and gasoline, are making the software much harder to crack (which they are legally allowed to do). But they can't forbid owners from understanding or modifying the software, nor can they void your warranty without first proving that the modification was the cause of the malfunction. There are plenty of aftermarket vendors which provide solutions for diagnosing and repairing modern diesels.

 

[sag2]

KPear, I think your still missing my point. Reliability aside I don't agree with the fact we are now tied to a dealership for life if we choose to keep our vehicles stock. I've always done my own repairs beyond warranty and that option is no longer available if you own a diesel pickup. Chrysler doesn't make their software available to the general public which means there is no way to be able to communicate with the vehicle.

This is not true. By law all OEM's must make their diagnostic tools available to anyone that wants to purchase it. Just go to portal.dcctools.com and you can purchase as an aftermarket customer. It isn't cheap, but is available to all.

 

[JR]

This is not true. By law all OEM's must make their diagnostic tools available to anyone that wants to purchase it. Just go to portal.dcctools.com and you can purchase as an aftermarket customer. It isn't cheap, but is available to all.

I inquired about access to witech before I bought my truck, both online and at my local dealership and was told I could not buy the software as a consumer. Likely I would not have bought it anyway because I'm sure it's cost prohibitive for the individual but witech being the only means available I wanted to explore my options.I couldn't even get a quote for a price. The link you provided doesn't allow for a new member sign up but this appears to be the same website?
http://kb.dcctools.com/index.php?View=entry&EntryID=387
This is where I inquired before.
I also came across this while searching this morning.

Chrysler (FCA) wiTECH, J2534 and TechAuthority use, license and subscriptions have been a hot topic of concern for technicians since mid-2015. The long period of confusion reflects ongoing changes in FCA internal controls and processes regarding these service products. FCA provided NASTF with a notice, “Authorized Usage of wiTECH Diagnostic Tools and Software for Aftermarket Customers” on March 4, 2016. NASTF obtained additional clarification from FCA. The following is NASTF’s understanding (as of March 14, 2017) of the questions being asked NASTF by independent technicians.

TechAuthority Online subscriptions are available for purchase only:
At www.techauthority.com from the ONLINE SUBSCRIPTIONS tab.
By calling 1-844-wiTECH2 (1-844-948-3242) and selecting prompt #3 (service information). When using this option, bundled pricing for the TechAuthority and wiTECH subscriptions is available. The 1-888 phone number advertised on the wiTECH order form is not intended for aftermarket customers and may delay proper handling of such orders.
wiTECH1 and wiTECH2, a pc-based software is the OEM tool for diagnostics and programming and requires additional licensed hardware available only from FCA through their designated vendors.
Most aftermarket shops will likely purchase the Single Wired Device package. For pricing, information and ordering call 1-844.wiTECH2 (1.844.948.3242) or email -- email address removed --

https://www.nastf.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageID=3867

I will inquire again and see what they have to say, but I've got a question for those in the know. The above website I linked has annual subscription prices PER unit of $1450. Does that sound right?

Re legal obligation to provide OEM software to Joe Dirt, from my experiences particularly in Ag it hasn't been so cut and dry thanks to the DMCA. Late 2015 an amendment was made to exclude motor vehicles, particularly ag equipment with the intent to give the owner access to OEM software for the purpose of diagnosing and repair. That being said JD is dragging this through the courts citing safety, emissions compliance and warranty. Sound familiar? John Deere thinks they have the right to enforce air quality and safety laws.. nevermind the fact we've already got regulations in place for all that.

 

[KPear]

Re legal obligation to provide OEM software to Joe Dirt, from my experiences particularly in Ag it hasn't been so cut and dry thanks to the DMCA. Late 2015 an amendment was made to exclude motor vehicles, particularly ag equipment with the intent to give the owner access to OEM software for the purpose of diagnosing and repair. That being said JD is dragging this through the courts citing safety, emissions compliance and warranty. Sound familiar? John Deere thinks they have the right to enforce air quality and safety laws.. nevermind the fact we've already got regulations in place for all that.

But again we're not on the same page here.

OEM's are under no obligation, either legal or ethical, to provide software access to their customers. It's their software and if they want to safeguard it from misuse by the average consumer (which is the likely motivation) they can do that.

However, there is nothing in state or federal law which prohibits aftermarket vendors or the individual consumer from decoding and re-programming the OEM software. The OEM's argued for that regulation a while back, but there was no legal basis for such an argument. Plenty of aftermarket companies make a business out of decoding and re-programming OEM software.

The only real restriction on aftermarket tuning is tampering with OEM emissions. There are plenty of companies which offer emissions-compliant tuning.

 

[sag2]

I inquired about access to witech before I bought my truck, both online and at my local dealership and was told I could not buy the software as a consumer. Likely I would not have bought it anyway because I'm sure it's cost prohibitive for the individual but witech being the only means available I wanted to explore my options.I couldn't even get a quote for a price. The link you provided doesn't allow for a new member sign up but this appears to be the same website?
http://kb.dcctools.com/index.php?View=entry&EntryID=387
This is where I inquired before.
I also came across this while searching this morning.



https://www.nastf.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageID=3867

I will inquire again and see what they have to say, but I've got a question for those in the know. The above website I linked has annual subscription prices PER unit of $1450. Does that sound right?

Re legal obligation to provide OEM software to Joe Dirt, from my experiences particularly in Ag it hasn't been so cut and dry thanks to the DMCA. Late 2015 an amendment was made to exclude motor vehicles, particularly ag equipment with the intent to give the owner access to OEM software for the purpose of diagnosing and repair. That being said JD is dragging this through the courts citing safety, emissions compliance and warranty. Sound familiar? John Deere thinks they have the right to enforce air quality and safety laws.. nevermind the fact we've already got regulations in place for all that.

The license fee does sound about right. When I said OEM, that is for auto manufacturers. Under federal emissions laws ALL OEM's have to offer diagnostic tools or software to anyone willing to pay for it. They don't sell that many because the cost it prohibitive for most shops. The good Snap-On scanner we have at the college is $12k but it does just about everything the OEM tools do, but on almost all vehicles.

 

[sag2]

But again we're not on the same page here.

OEM's are under no obligation, either legal or ethical, to provide software access to their customers. It's their software and if they want to safeguard it from misuse by the average consumer (which is the likely motivation) they can do that.

However, there is nothing in state or federal law which prohibits aftermarket vendors or the individual consumer from decoding and re-programming the OEM software. The OEM's argued for that regulation a while back, but there was no legal basis for such an argument. Plenty of aftermarket companies make a business out of decoding and re-programming OEM software.

The only real restriction on aftermarket tuning is tampering with OEM emissions. There are plenty of companies which offer emissions-compliant tuning.

It sounds like when you say "software", you are talking about the actual ECM software. What JR and me are talking about is the diagnostic tools and software. You are correct that OEM's do not and will not share their software with anyone.

 

[JR]

The license fee does sound about right. When I said OEM, that is for auto manufacturers. Under federal emissions laws ALL OEM's have to offer diagnostic tools or software to anyone willing to pay for it. They don't sell that many because the cost it prohibitive for most shops. The good Snap-On scanner we have at the college is $12k but it does just about everything the OEM tools do, but on almost all vehicles.

Can your snap on do stationary desoot or other critical functions related specifically to the emissions system? How about clearing hard codes that derate?
In my emails with Autel and OTC that their J2534 devices did not have these capabilities, but admittedly this was some time ago so my info is dated. It sounds like its time to explore my options again. Even if I had similar money into a scanner as I did deletes/exhaust, with the ability to do my own diagnosing/repair I'd be all for it.

 

[sag2]

I have never tried it with the Snap-On, we don't get too many DPF equipped trucks at the college for service!

 

[JR]

I have never tried it with the Snap-On, we don't get too many DPF equipped trucks at the college for service!

Understood. I'm going to reach out to the aftermarket again before I call witech and ask for a quote that I probably won't be able to afford. Hopefully I get a different answer than the last time I inquired.

 

[Bob4x4]

Can your snap on do stationary desoot or other critical functions related specifically to the emissions system? How about clearing hard codes that derate?
In my emails with Autel and OTC that their J2534 devices did not have these capabilities, but admittedly this was some time ago so my info is dated. It sounds like its time to explore my options again. Even if I had similar money into a scanner as I did deletes/exhaust, with the ability to do my own diagnosing/repair I'd be all for it.

When you say clear hard codes that derate-you do understand no scanner can clear an a code if the problem still exist.There are also some codes that require actions such as clearing counters before the code will clear.
With the 18 model year the vehicle security has been increased again and will continue to increase in the future.Most scanners will probably become read only

 

[JR]

I'm aware the repair needs to be performed before the code will clear. I've got access to a snap on Solus ultra that would not clear my p2048 code after replacing a known bad def injector.