Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) Does this look normal?

[Momilesmoproblems]

Clean it real good, put it back together exactly as you took it apart, you can check the pattern to see if its waay off... but put a new pinion seal in and roll with it.. Worst outcome is as Scott said, it'll get real noisy and you'll have to go back and rebuild it.. but then thats just a bunch of labor you expend now. I had a Bronco with the 8.8 axle that broke all the spider gears.. (they spalled bad) and the RnP ran all that material through the gears like a rock crushing mill... I drove it for a year with it being noisy and the tone ring (spedo) jumping and it was fine.

( full disclosure I did not know they were bad, just it got noisier and decided to look when the spedo was really erratic and that's when I discovered the side gears were toast, and the RnP, and the bearings....)

Thank you so much! I’m really glad it never lunched the housing. How noisy was it?

 

[Momilesmoproblems]

Sounds like you have what it takes to undergo this challenge.
Clean is important for longevity. A FSM (factory service manual) is your best friend. Other sources can be equally good, like a known good YouTube video where you may get some good pointers. I'm old school and like a print version. Easier to jump back and forth in the steps for clarification to me. Study and understand each step before you do anything. Then use your OCD, deliberation, along with a helping of patience, and maybe a few extra "crushable" parts (shims) just in case Murphy shows up for the fun you are about to enjoy.
Best of luck. You can do this! If you have any questions the group here has the answers and guidance for the asking.

Thank yall so much for that, it means more than yall know! Great help on a great forum for great trucks.

 

[Momilesmoproblems]

Ok boys, put it back together, cleaned the housing pretty well, sprayed all parts with brake clean, put the carrier back in, knew where one carrier strap went, rotated the other until it fit, that’s a real btch to hold the races in place, tried to set preload with a crappy in lb torque wrench dial, got a slight reading which indicates about 2nm (around 10-12 in lbs if it’s accurate at all) (this pos reads up to 800 in lb and wasn’t a lot of help), and used the harbor freight electric corded impact driver which says it has 300 lb ft and I know that’s a little past spec but I doubt that matters. The yoke had some resistance but nothing crazy.



I put about 3.5 qts of fram 80w-90 and took it up the road. Only went about 0.5 miles and only went about 15 mph and when I’m on the gas and as it comes to a coast it sounds like whup-buup-buup (like woop, pronounced like wood and buup pronounced like buhhhp about like boop) and repeats. I don’t think it sounded as loud off the gas but with that noise I wanted to see what you guys think before I do anything else. It sounded pretty quiet to begin with but as I got off the gas it sounded like that and may taper off with decal but then again maybe not. It may or not have started to get louder so I just went home. NO clunking. Is it easy to remedy? Is it rebuild time? Can I drive it without it going bang and puking diff guts everywhere???? Thank y’all again so much

 

[Momilesmoproblems]

I’m wondering if I went wrong by not running a good enough pattern. I did the preload as best I could with a crappy dial torque tool. I did let my 300 lb ft impact driver get the nut as tight as possible.

I put the parts all where they should be to the best of my knowledge, but I didn’t get the paint and see how the gears were contacting each other. The ring and pinion seemed to mesh just fine when reinstalling everything. There’s a slight bit of play when you turn the carrier and a cooresponding deep clack but that does not translate to a clunk when going from gear to gear ( reverse to drive). I would call it a cyclical whineish noise of sorts that it’s making.

 

[brucejohnson]

I’m wondering if I went wrong by not running a good enough pattern. I did the preload as best I could with a crappy dial torque tool. I did let my 300 lb ft impact driver get the nut as tight as possible.

I put the parts all where they should be to the best of my knowledge, but I didn’t get the paint and see how the gears were contacting each other. The ring and pinion seemed to mesh just fine when reinstalling everything. There’s a slight bit of play when you turn the carrier and a cooresponding deep clack but that does not translate to a clunk when going from gear to gear ( reverse to drive). I would call it a cyclical whineish noise of sorts that it’s making.

Ouch. So many things wrong here.
Most standard torque wrenches have a useable (accurate) range from 10% to 100% +/- a certain percentage designed into the torque wrench. A common accuracy tolerance is 4% to 5% of scale reading. That means the lowest useable value for an 800 in/lb wrench is 80 in/lb. Quality tools and proper use are imperative.
The impact wrench should never be used to set a torque value due to the erratic application of torque during the impact event. The difference in manufacturing of the individual electric motors as well as the available electric voltage and current and use of weak (too small) extension cords can cause a huge variance in applied torque.
A torque value is designed to be either dry or lubricated and slowly applied to accommodate the stiction of the materials while stretching the fastener a specific amount. Too much and things may break; too loose and things can loosen and break. Preloads are critical to long life in differential work.

 

[Ozymandias]

I understand it that he used the impact for the pinion nut which is okay as we use the torque only for the collapsible spacer.

For the rest of it.... there went way to much wrong in the whole process to provide any true help here aside from - give to a shop and have a full rebuild with new parts all around.
I think I mentioned it above that rebuilding an axle is the highest skill work for a mechanic.

 

[Momilesmoproblems]

So are y’all saying that I did a bad job of reassembly? I understand now the torque application may not have been the best move and the torque dial indicator was not good enough to use.

if I did a bad job, did any of these damage it more in such a short time or was it already too far gone? What do you make of the noise?

 

[NIsaacs]

I understand it that he used the impact for the pinion nut which is okay as we use the torque only for the collapsible spacer.

Correct, the Dana uses shims so 300lbs is fine.

How did you check preload? You need to check the pinion and carrier separate. Do the carrier first with the pinion out. After that is in spec, remove the carrier then install the pinion and check it. After it is in spec you can reinstall the carrier and they will both be in spec. Now you need to check back lash. I don't think you changed any shims on the carrier or pinion so your pattern will not change.

The only way to adjust preload or back lash is to add or subtract shims. Not knowing exactly what you changed or the sequence during install, we really can't determine what is right or wrong.

 

[Momilesmoproblems]

Correct, the Dana uses shims so 300lbs is fine.

How did you check preload? You need to check the pinion and carrier separate. Do the carrier first with the pinion out. After that is in spec, remove the carrier then install the pinion and check it. After it is in spec you can reinstall the carrier and they will both be in spec. Now you need to check back lash. I don't think you changed any shims on the carrier or pinion so your pattern will not change.

The only way to adjust preload or back lash is to add or subtract shims. Not knowing exactly what you changed or the sequence during install, we really can't determine what is right or wrong.

I’m going to sound like an idiot here but I thought preload was only done by the shims and possibly tension on the pinion nut and was specific to the pinion only.

I did set the pinion with the carrier out but did not set the carrier as I was not aware, I watched some videos and went over the advice here and did not see that. How do you go about doing that? I will research that too.


I didn’t change any shims to the best of my knowledge.
My sequence was preload and install pinion, install carrier, pass side carrier strap, drive side carrier strap. Thank you

 

[NIsaacs]

It sounds like you just cleaned up the parts and reinstalled them. It should be as good as before the drive shaft breaking. In your original post, you said you broke the drive shaft. What exactly broke? Is it a one piece or two piece? If a two piece, did you alight the u-joints? Some slip yokes have a master spline and you can't get them off. If not, then you can. If they are not in alignment you will get all kinds of noise and binding.

 

[Momilesmoproblems]

It sounds like you just cleaned up the parts and reinstalled them. It should be as good as before the drive shaft breaking. In your original post, you said you broke the drive shaft. What exactly broke? Is it a one piece or two piece? If a two piece, did you alight the u-joints? Some slip yokes have a master spline and you can't get them off. If not, then you can. If they are not in alignment you will get all kinds of noise and binding.

Man y’all are smart!!! Rarely am I impressed this much with other enthusiasts.

The rearmost u joint failed and dropped the original POS 2 piece. I replaced it with a 5” aluminum 1 piece from Weller driveline. It appeared the middle u joint was on the verge of failure was not serviceable so we bought a new one. We did have to put the original front slip yoke back on because we got the wrong one that fits the DLD and they were nice enough to install a new 1410 u joint for us in the rear.

The retainer tab on the original yoke wore away which caused the joint cap to fall out and cause a failure. We have a new yoke and a new strap kit. Like a rookie I did not preload the carrier at all because I didn’t know to. Do you think that’s the problem?

 

[Momilesmoproblems]

Thinking it over I think I didn’t install any shims in the carrier, the last time I messed with it was December but I don’t recall seeing any shims for the carrier and I don’t think I saved any shims for the carrier. Do y’all think that’s the problem?
Signed,


ADD Rookie

 

[Timd32]

Torqueking has a good manual supplement, not cheap, but it's useful at times.

https://torqueking.com/product/1744...ana-axle-pinion-differential-bearing-service/

I rebuilt my Dana in my Willys last summer, was around $1100 all in with all the tools and bearings and races.

Personally lots of great advice above.

If you showed up under my shade tree today here is what I would do.

1. Have the manuals at hand for the rig. Buy a basic beam type torque wrench and have a dial indicator, marking compound on hand.

Here is what I used, and I needed a bunch of adapters to go from 1/4" up to maybe 1/2" for my pinion nut socket.

Neiko 03727A 1/4-Inch-Drive Beam Torque Wrench, SAE and MM Bicycle and Automotive Wrench, Reads in 0–80 Inches/Pounds and 0–9 Newton/Meter Increments

Amz has those...

2. Verify your drive line as per the above, ensure it's phased and in good order and nothing bad is going on, it's all new so should be an easy first step.

3. Basics of wheels and tires, did something bad happen on the install, something dumb.

4. Knowing the above I would probably be draining the diff, pulling axles, driveshaft, get in a position to verify the following.

4a. Record as found rotating torque, since you have your pinion seal in there is a slightly higher allowance in the manual for this.

4b. Record backlash.

4c. Record as found pattern, looking for drive and coast side. Heel and Toe locations, and pressure points. Snap some pics and share what you have.

That's the basics I would start from there before moving anything.

Carrier bearing shims are under the bearing at times.

It took some practice for me to fully understand preload on the pinion and how these shims all work, but once it clicks and you get it, it's not horrible.

But it's a pay to play deal here, the knowledge shared with me by others was priceless, I had a good tool budget and had the time.

Good luck with this one.

 

[NIsaacs]

Thinking it over I think I didn’t install any shims in the carrier, the last time I messed with it was December but I don’t recall seeing any shims for the carrier and I don’t think I saved any shims for the carrier. Do y’all think that’s the problem?
Signed,


ADD Rookie

The shims are behind the bearings so I doubt you messed with them. Like I said, if you didn't change anything, the assembly should be the same as before the drive shaft breaking. Not sure what to think about your noise.

 

[Timd32]

I'm helping a friend with his Dana coming up, his is noisy and was rebuilt a few years back, truck does not drive much.

In digging around my Willys stuff I ran across this and sent it too him. To me a Dana is a Dana they like the extra attention and it's beyond amazing how even an extra .010 shim makes in set up.

 

[petersonj]

Only went about 0.5 miles and only went about 15 mph and when I’m on the gas and as it comes to a coast it sounds like whup-buup-buup (like woop, pronounced like wood and buup pronounced like buhhhp about like boop) and repeats

Can you tell if the repetition of sound is at axle speed or driveshaft speed? Driveshaft speed would be almost 4 times faster than axle speed depending on axle ratio. Confirming may help you diagnose.

If it is at driveshaft speed, double check your work on the driveshaft first, then disconnect the driveshaft and rotate the pinion shaft by hand with rear axle on jack stands. See if you can hear / feel anything abnormal that is timed with each revolution.

- John

 

[Momilesmoproblems]

Torqueking has a good manual supplement, not cheap, but it's useful at times.

https://torqueking.com/product/1744...ana-axle-pinion-differential-bearing-service/

I rebuilt my Dana in my Willys last summer, was around $1100 all in with all the tools and bearings and races.

Personally lots of great advice above.

If you showed up under my shade tree today here is what I would do.

1. Have the manuals at hand for the rig. Buy a basic beam type torque wrench and have a dial indicator, marking compound on hand.

Here is what I used, and I needed a bunch of adapters to go from 1/4" up to maybe 1/2" for my pinion nut socket.

Neiko 03727A 1/4-Inch-Drive Beam Torque Wrench, SAE and MM Bicycle and Automotive Wrench, Reads in 0–80 Inches/Pounds and 0–9 Newton/Meter Increments

Amz has those...

2. Verify your drive line as per the above, ensure it's phased and in good order and nothing bad is going on, it's all new so should be an easy first step.

3. Basics of wheels and tires, did something bad happen on the install, something dumb.

4. Knowing the above I would probably be draining the diff, pulling axles, driveshaft, get in a position to verify the following.

4a. Record as found rotating torque, since you have your pinion seal in there is a slightly higher allowance in the manual for this.

4b. Record backlash.

4c. Record as found pattern, looking for drive and coast side. Heel and Toe locations, and pressure points. Snap some pics and share what you have.

That's the basics I would start from there before moving anything.

Carrier bearing shims are under the bearing at times.

It took some practice for me to fully understand preload on the pinion and how these shims all work, but once it clicks and you get it, it's not horrible.

But it's a pay to play deal here, the knowledge shared with me by others was priceless, I had a good tool budget and had the time.

Good luck with this one.

This like everything else here is great info. I will order that torque wrench and look into that manual.

The parts are all used and what was in there if that matters. Just the yoke, shaft, and rear u joint straps are new.

Can you expound on phased drivetrain? Do you mean verification that each touched area is in the best known order?

I will continue to rack my brain to see if there was something basic for sure.

Looks like I’ll be pulling the carrier again and I will measure rotating torque with that new wrench on the assembled pinion.

I need to learn and understand backlash, I presume it’s the number of a unit of measure (mm? Thousandths of an inch?) between when the assembled ring starts to move and when it stops. How is that adjusted?

Much of this has clicked for me thankfully I’m blessed with mechanical skill, but much is unknown and I’m very out of my element but I can wrap my head around it. You ain’t lying about the pay to play, thanks to spicer and Chrysler I’m at least $1200 into this without a new rear end.

I’ll also look into getting the patterns, drive and coast. I’m new to that but I can probably look it up. Thank you so much for the detailed response!

 

[Momilesmoproblems]

The shims are behind the bearings so I doubt you messed with them. Like I said, if you didn't change anything, the assembly should be the same as before the drive shaft breaking. Not sure what to think about your noise.

That makes two of us, my valued comrade. Thank you so much for the clutch info on the placement of those. I didn’t, the pressed side bearings stayed in place, keeping the races over them as it was installed was real fun.

 

[Momilesmoproblems]

Can you tell if the repetition of sound is at axle speed or driveshaft speed? Driveshaft speed would be almost 4 times faster than axle speed depending on axle ratio. Confirming may help you diagnose.

If it is at driveshaft speed, double check your work on the driveshaft first, then disconnect the driveshaft and rotate the pinion shaft by hand with rear axle on jack stands. See if you can hear / feel anything abnormal that is timed with each revolution.

- John

With what I know, I can’t, but I can probably time it using that formula you just blessed me with. Do you think I have anything to lose by driving it a short bit to try to diag? Do you think it will blow up? Do you think I damaged it yet? Thank you!

 

[Ozymandias]

So are y’all saying that I did a bad job of reassembly? I understand now the torque application may not have been the best move and the torque dial indicator was not good enough to use.

if I did a bad job, did any of these damage it more in such a short time or was it already too far gone? What do you make of the noise?

The problem is you have already broken parts in your diff, you aren't sure about the caps and you never did a diff job before, you did not use any paint or anything to check for the pattern or back lash. Pattern is somewhat the most important thing in setting it up, together with other also very important things like the preload. This is to much.
I'm 99% sure that this diff with this parts will never be quiet again.
To have a diff quiet is the most difficult part in setting it up.
I myself did it many times and at least the first 5 times I failed greatly to get it quiet, with all the proper equipment and hands on help from someone that did it before. There is so much to look for and so much of it is just experience. Very much like setting up a wheel bearing, just 3x in one place combined.

I truly would love to help you out here but I can't, that doesn't work through the internet.

Edit, I don't think you damaged it more by your short test ride.