EarthRoamer installs TripleLok

[EarthRoamer]

Stall Speed vs Torque Multiplication

Yes, the problem with my old BD torque converter was that it was milled in such a way that it reduced both stall speed AND torque multiplication. I think we can all agree that lower stall speed at the expense of reducing torque multiplication is not a good thing.



Stall speed and torque multiplication were the most difficult concepts for me to understand when I started trying to understand how torque converters work. The ATS site explains stall speed and torque multiplication at this link:

http://www.atsdiesel.com/atsu/atsu-stator.html



Here are more sites I found useful when learning about torque converters:

http://www.familycar.com/transmission.htm

http://www.tpub.com/basae/103.htm

http://www.howstuffworks.com/torque-converter.htm

http://www.victrans.com/works.html



I may be wrong, but it seems to me that even with good torque multiplication, a stator could have too low of a stall speed. If the Cummins can't develop enough RPM to get fuel and boost pressure up and begin developing HP, the truck wouldn't move.



I have zero experience with DTT converters, but on paper it seems like the "curb test" would be a problem. I would like to hear from DTT owners. Can you back up to a 6" curb, and then from a standing start with the transfer case in high range back over it ? (my truck weighs in at 10,000 lbs, so it would be even better to try this with a load) Have you ever had problems pulling a boat up a ramp, or getting started moving with a heavy trailer?



Once again, this isn't meant to be a slam on any vendor or product, I'm just trying to learn and share information.

 

[Bandit1]

i will try the curb test here sometime soon, but i hvae had experience with pulling my boat and trailer and a jag of wood on a trailer and i love my dtt 89%. i am curious the result of the curb test. this tdr is great, i hvae learned so much and even from this thread, no one bashing any other company jsut people talking and discussing the experiences with their own products.

 

[TKilgore]

RPM

I'm not sure if it makes any difference but I am curious about the RPM required to complete the test.



I will try the test also this afternoon with my STOCK tc. I have a DTT vb but I don't think it will affect the test.



I also appreciate the information passed out in this thread as I want to finish my upgrades and more important want to learn.



Tom

 

[JTBMC]

I did the 6 inch curb test in 2 wheel high this morning with my stock trans and it would jump up from a dead stop at 1250 RPM with ease. In 4x4 low you dont even know the curb is back there.

Does the ATS & DTT trans allow this, as I do get in some tight places with stock trailers and load with fire wood.

Thanks, TJ

 

[EarthRoamer]

Originally posted by tjlaffite

I did the 6 inch curb test in 2 wheel high this morning with my stock trans and it would jump up from a dead stop at 1250 RPM with ease. In 4x4 low you dont even know the curb is back there.

Does the ATS & DTT trans allow this, as I do get in some tight places with stock trailers and load with fire wood.

Thanks, TJ

The ATS TripleLok easily passed this test with my 10,000 pound EarthRoamer truck. Obviously, the bigger the load the more difficult it will be to pass this test.



I think reverse is geared a little higher, so anyone trying this test may want to try it both going forward and in reverse.



Also, gearing and tire size is a factor. I have 3. 73 gears with 36. 4 inch diameter tires. My final gearing is about 20% higher than a truck with 3. 54 gears and stock tires.

 

[Bob Wagner]

Bill, Do you know the patent number for the new triple lok?



Thank you,

Bob

 

[Stefan Kondolay]

Bob,



If your looking for their patent # they put it in their ad in the TDR magazine. Issue 35, page 97. Here is the patent # listed 4710300. For those wondering I didn't mis type the number from the ad. I checked and re-check when I saw what it was for. It 's right beside the the picture of the TC.

 

[D. Showan]

I think some of you are looking for some magic.



If you have a torque converter with a lower stall speed you MUST have less torque multiplcation. That is why the stall speed is lower,the torque multiplication is lower and that is why the engine wont rev as high at a stop. If you multiply the torque more the engine can rev higher. On our diesel engines (especially the 12 valve) they develop torque at such a low rpm that they usually dont need all of the extra torque multiplication that you get with a stock converter. I said Torque multiplication not fluid efficiency, fluid efficiency is a totally different matter. With a lower stall converter, when you step on the throttle you start to pull at a much lower RPM than with stock. That is usually a good thing, the power gets to the ground without a lot of extra RPM that you don't need. But in situations like what Earthroamer mentioned (can't get moving at all) it's because the engine doesn't get the extra help of the extra torque multiplication, it has to rely more on it's own torque and even the mighty Cummins has limits at 1500-1600 RPM



This curb test you are talking about will only mean something if all variables are kept the same except the converter. The trucks must have the same HP and torque curves, tire size and rear axle ratio. The guy with the 4. :1 rear will pull over the curb easier than those of us with 3. 55's etc.



Fluid efficiency once you get moving is another matter. From a stop and as you take off the torque multiplication is the important concern, then as you begin to pick up MPH the fluid coupling becomes important to keep the power transfered to the ground. (I know ATS shifts locked to locked)



I'm glad this thread has for the most part kept away from the mud slinging. Anyway, these were my thought's on the subject.

 

[Bob Wagner]

D.Showan

I agree with your last statement

 

[EarthRoamer]

Bob & Stefan,



If you guys have a genuine interest in patent information regarding the TripleLok, it seems to me the best way to get that information would be to contact ATS directly. Here's their phone number: 303. 431. 7973



This forum has been civil up to this point, and I will do everything I can do to keep it that way. I hope I'm wrong, but I get the feeling you're just trying to stir up trouble.



I want to keep this thread going, but the minute this thing heads towards the train wreck that these transmission threads usually turn into, I'm out of here.

 

[Bob Wagner]

Bill, I have a genuine interest and I will do as you asked.



Thanks,

Bob

 

[GLASMITHS]

testing testing

Just returned from lumbermill , saw all these threads and decided to test before unloading. With 95 gal of #2 in the tank and the lumber I am about what EarthRoamer is all the time.



So, I pulls off my 6" drive, back up to the slab, push it down about half, just lots of smoke(from the wheels). So pull over to the small ramp 6" over 3ft, there are 4 black marks on it that will be there for a long time



IMHO, this CUMMINS will chew a speed bump up and ask for more.



My drive must be about 10-12%; my truck will idle out with 16k 5er and 5X8 Well Cargo tag along behind the 5er. About 26K



EarthRomer: Are you going to crawl around the mountain and desert locked-up, slow speed? Seems that would be kinda rougn on the drive line

 

[EarthRoamer]

Originally posted by D. Showan

This curb test you are talking about will only mean something if all variables are kept the same except the converter. The trucks must have the same HP and torque curves, tire size and rear axle ratio. The guy with the 4. :1 rear will pull over the curb easier than those of us with 3. 55's etc.

I agree with D. Showan that it really isn't possible to compare how each of our trucks perform and attribute that performance to a single factor. It's the combination of everything that we've done to our trucks that gives us our actual performance.



It's the same with the ATF temp postings. Depending on what gauge is used, where the probe is located, the eyesight of the person reading the gauge, the outside temperature, load, hp, and about a million other factors, we will all have different temperature that can't really be compared.



In my case, I can make a valid comparison between an old design BD torque converter and an ATS TripleLok since I've used both in the exact same truck. It should come as no surprise that ATS's newly designed TripleLok is significantly better than a product BD sold in 1999.



What is important is what works in your truck. If a pattern emerges from a number of TDR members that their ATF temps are too high, or they can't pull a boat up a ramp without dropping to 4 low, and they are all using brand x torque converter, this is probably useful information that is of interest to all of us.



The more people with different products that talk about their actual experiences, the better off we all are. That is also why we need to keep this civil. I'm sure there are many people who would like to post, but aren't willing to deal with the personal attacks that frequently occur when posting.

 

[rrausch]

I'm almost sorry I asked the "curb crawl" and "boat ramp" questions, but it was the best way I could think of to try to discern the "off the line" difference between DTT & ATS & BD & Goerend.



I mean from some of the posts I have read DTT's have been reported to be a little smoky with low rpm's "off the line". Please correct me if I am wrong. To my way of thinking that might not be so good for me because I drive city stop and go 90% of the time.



They all seem to have good systems. But if DTT crates more heat than ATS that is information which should be known. Conversely if DTT gets more power to the ground than BD, then that is something which should be known also. Or if Goerend is a lot cheaper than any of the others, then there is information too, which should be known.



Which one is best for me? That is the question I am asking.



Personally I also think all the guys who bought DTT's are now worried that ATS has a better system.

 

[JTBMC]

Well said Mr. Earth Roamer

I have un scienetificly re-preformed the 6 inch curb test Bob Tail and with six horses in the trailer. Both forward & reverse 2 wheel high with a hot trans 160 degrees and my stock trans climbs it with ease.

I have 215 x 85 x 16 tires with 3:55 axel ratio and was able to push the 16,000 # loaded trailer up and over the curb at 1700 RPM

The problem is this seems to be the only thing my stock trans does well is work in reverse and 1st & 2nd gears. Third & OD are gut less

Thanks for your concern and help,

TJ Laffite

 

[LandShark]

I also like the curb test. Back when my truck was new (1995) I was in a poorly laid out parking lot and decided to take a short cut which required jumping a 6 or 8" curb. I had the camper on, so I was at about 10500 lbs. and wanted to take it slow. I nosed up to the curb, mashed on the pedal and went no where. RPM's went to about 2000. There were a few people watching, so I quickly dropped into 4 wheel low and had no problem. This is a stock truck with 3. 54 rear end. I was really suprised. I've never owned a vehicle that wouldn't jump a curb or at least spin the tires trying.



I take these comments quite seriously. Now that my truck is broken in with 125,000 miles, I'll be upgrading the transmission and adding a plate. Spending $3000+ is a big deal to me and I want to spend it wisely and I'm perfectly happy to have EarthRoamer and others do the R&D and testing for me!

 

[JMichelson]

I’ve been following this thread with great interest I have BD’s newest torque converter with a BD transmission. I tow a 5000 lb travel trailer so combined gross weight truck and trailer is around 13000 lbs. The truck will crawl away and accelerate to around 7-mph at idle with the trailer. It will crawl over speed bumps with the trailer. It will go over curbs without the trailer. I have never seen more than 150° temperature empty even with stop and go driving. The warmest I have seen towing has been 170° up hill with a head wind out of overdrive foot to the floor. The outside air temperature was around 65°, water temperature was at 190° The transmission temperature is taken in the pan. My point here is, isn’t that how transmissions are supposed to work. Run cool, harness the torque of the mighty Cummins and last a long time. I’m not living in a dream world, that’s what my BD transmission does. When you guys start talking about driving over curbs to test you torque converters I have to wonder what are you trying to prove? Fluid coupling, triple disc’s, stall speeds, 91%, 89%, fun stuff but for the most part not much use to us mechanically challenged. The information that future transmission buyers need is pretty simple; does transmission in your truck move the truck down the road, tow what you want to tow, haul what you want to haul and not get so hot that in makes you nervous and do all of that for a lot of miles. Lets all check back in 50000 miles or so and see who’s transmissions are still doing what their designed to do. I’ll be honest about mine if all of you are honest about yours. Jeff

 

[D. Showan]

All of the previous few posts have valid points. There is never going to be 1 perfect transmission and TC because there are so many variables and applications out there. I keep reading and occasionally posting here because I find these topics so interesting and just try to ignore the rude childish comments. I think we can all agree that these companies in our discussions are all making good products now even if they were a little lacking in the past. It's great to have so many good choices isn't it???

 

[D. Showan]

Landshark,



You don't need to spend $3,000 plus to get a strong, reliable, and much more efficient transmission. I think the triple locks are great but most of us in the under 300HP range don't really "need" one. But if that was the criteria for what we buy, our garages and houses would be a lot more empty.

 

[GLASMITHS]

WORRIED ABOUT ATS?

rrausch: I can only speak for myself. After looking at both systems, DTT and ATS I just felt that DTT was best for me. We have in past years been taught that lock-up is it. However, on practical application is does not pan out that way. On a recent trip I went over hills of 7% in third and GV unlocked. I could not have gone over the largest locked as with the BD or ATS; I would have had to shift down to 3rd direct or 2nd and GV. The temps were not as high with the DTT unlocked and the BD locked. I choose the 89% so I could have some power to jump curbs when necessary, and the fact that my truck is at or under 300rwp.



Just remember about the lock-up; the 24 valve is built for 2000+ rpm. Cummins says not to wot below the torque peak but for a short period. My 3c