EarthRoamer installs TripleLok

[StakeMan]

Re: WORRIED ABOUT ATS?

Originally posted by GLASMITHS

rrausch: I can only speak for myself. After looking at both systems, DTT and ATS I just felt that DTT was best for me. We have in past years been taught that lock-up is it. However, on practical application is does not pan out that way. On a recent trip I went over hills of 7% in third and GV unlocked. I could not have gone over the largest locked as with the BD or ATS; I would have had to shift down to 3rd direct or 2nd and GV. The temps were not as high with the DTT unlocked and the BD locked. I choose the 89% so I could have some power to jump curbs when necessary, and the fact that my truck is at or under 300rwp.



Just remember about the lock-up; the 24 valve is built for 2000+ rpm. Cummins says not to wot below the torque peak but for a short period. My 3c

Are you saying that a standard transmission wouldn't have made it as well?

 

[EarthRoamer]

Originally posted by D. Showan

Landshark,



You don't need to spend $3,000 plus to get a strong, reliable, and much more efficient transmission. I think the triple locks are great but most of us in the under 300HP range don't really "need" one.

I agree that you don’t need to spend $3,000 to get a strong, reliable, and much more efficient transmission. If I had a truck with relatively few miles on the transmission, I would simply install a TripleLok and an electronic lockup controller.



IMHO, one of the great benefits of the TripleLok is that you don’t need to jack up the line pressures to keep it from slipping. This means that you don’t need to spend money on a BD PressureLoc, and you don’t need valve body modifications to up the line pressure. For most vendors, you'll need a TC and a valve body before it will work.



ATS’s valve body mods will give firmer shifts, and prolong the life of your transmission, but the TripleLok does not need any valve body mods to function perfectly.



I respectfully disagree that the TripleLok is only for high horsepower applications. I think anyone who pulls any kind of load will benefit with a TripleLok. This is the TC Dodge should have put in our trucks.

 

[EarthRoamer]

Re: WORRIED ABOUT ATS?

Originally posted by GLASMITHS

We have in past years been taught that lock-up is it. However, on practical application is does not pan out that way.

In the past we didn't have a multi-disc torque converter. The rules really have changed.

Originally posted by GLASMITHS

On a recent trip I went over hills of 7% in third and GV unlocked.

If a transmission isn't locked, HP is being wasted in the form of heat. The HP that is being wasted with in the slipping TC could have been going to the ground with a locked TC. It is simply not possible for an unlocked TC to get the same power to the ground as a locked TC. Some of the energy from the slipping TC is always lost in the form of heat.

 

[Strick-9]

EarthRoamer,



I'd like to challenge your last post.

It is simply not possible for an unlocked TC to get the same power to the ground as a locked TC

With your engineering degree, I'm sure you'll understand this.



When a TC clutch unlocks, it allows the engine to gain rpm. Under MOST driving conditions, more HP is available at a higher rpm.



When a TC clutch is unlocked, some energy (HP) is lost due to heat. But more HP is available at the higher RPM. So it depends on how tight the fluid coupling is and what RPM the engine is operating at as to whether more HP will get to the ground by unlocking a converter.



There are people all over the country pulling trailers with a locked TC clutch and being bogged down. They simply unlock the converter and finish the hill, in the SAME gear because they are putting MORE hp down unlocked.





-Chris

 

[D. Showan]

You are a gentleman EarthRoamer. I didn't really mean that the triple lock is only for high HP applications only that it is alot more needed in high HP trucks. I think I am correct in stating that the companies that sell the TC's with a single disc use higher pressures to keep the TC clutch from slipping, and those higher pressures also help keep the bands and clutch packs from slipping. I believe I read that ATS also recommends somewhat higher line pressure when using the triple lock in higher HP trucks, not to help the triple lock but to protect other trans parts. I totally agree that anyone that pulls any kind of load would benefit greatly from the triple loc. ATS really seems to have their act together.



I think strict-9 is correct, when you unlock and can crest a hill at a higher MPH you had to put more HP on the road. But what you lost was efficiency. It took more fuel to do it unlocked because unlocked you make more heat and that heat is wasted energy. Also our engines are less efficient at higher RPM's so you may put more HP to the ground unlocked but fuel economy will go way down while you are doing it. Locked should be much more efficient.

 

[GLASMITHS]

Like Strick-9 said----



If the engine is going to bog down in Lock-up, do you just shift down to a lower gear to maintain the locked t/c



You don't have to work for NASA to figure out the fact that the 24V Cummins operates better, less fuel, less egt and all around at over 1800 rpm. I never let mine drop lower than 2000 when towing, period.



Question for EarthRoamer: Would it be better to go over the hill at 58mph unlocked or 45mph and locked?



Stakeman: You might have to pump your clutch a few time.

 

[StakeMan]

I guess I'm not understanding what your saying.



I have always heard that if you tow you want a standard transmission because you put 100% to the ground. If it starts to lug you down shift. I don't see where it would be any different with a locked auto. It sounds to me if your saying that an auto in fuild coupling should be able to pull a load up a hill better than a standard. I'm just trying to follow your logic. I'm not starting a :-{}. I want to keep this civil and heading in a peacefull direction.

 

[Animal]

My opinion for what it's worth

Originally posted by EarthRoamer

IMHO, one of the great benefits of the TripleLok is that you don’t need to jack up the line pressures to keep it from slipping. This means that you don’t need to spend money on a BD PressureLoc, and you don’t need valve body modifications to up the line pressure. For most vendors, you'll need a TC and a valve body before it will work.

I agree with this statement if you have a stock engine, if you raise the engine HP you will need the VB to protect the rest of the transmission. So if we factor in that both ATS and DTT have good products then functionality is the next determining factor then cost. Both ATS and DTT do this in different way and each individual will have to make up their minds as to which will best suit their needs.



Now if we have a stock engine a TC may be all you need. ATS TC cost $1,370 and DTT cost $925. Now with a turned up engine I feel you will need both a TC & VB to prolong your transmission. The ATS TC/Valve body cost $1,770 and DTT cost $1,300.



Now for the high mileage/dead transmission people, the full upgrade through ATS is $3,215 and DTT is $3,299. If this is just a little to high, one could purchase the ATS transmission w/o TC, then buy a DTT TC for a total of $2,760.



As I see it if your transmission is in good shape I'd get the DTT TC/VB, it’s cheaper than the ATS TC alone. If I needed the full package I'd use ATS transmission w/o TC then purchase the DTT TC.



See I'm not against any one vender, I'm a pragmatist (cheap SOB), and feel this would fit my needs. Oo.



Now everybody should be happy.

 

[Dave MacArthur]

This thread is one of the best on transmissions that I have seen in quite a while. It talks about something I have been concerned about as I contemplate which way to go upgrading my trans and also is staying very civil for once on a long time. JeffMic I wanted to respond to your post. I think the info about curb climbing is very relavant to a lot of us. I have been concerned about getting a torque converter that has a low stall speed when thinking about upgrading. I use my truck around my property and it is bumpy in lots of places and I crawl slowly around sometimes with a load in the bed. It really helps in those situations that the rpm's come up well into the torque/horsepower curve. The same thing would be true of someone maneuvering a trailor into a campground/parking space etc. A lot of campsites etc are not nearly as smooth as a concrete or asphalt road. These are the situations where I think the curb test helps a lot. As for unlocking during a hill climb, wouldn't it be better for the trans to downshift (still locked) and stay in the "sweet spot"? That way you don't loose energy to heat but you stay in the rpm range to produce the most power. Shouldn't the "auto" trans do that?



Thanks for any info,



Dave.

 

[BushWakr - RIP]

I may be too late on this horse but if anyone's still interested I did the curb test tonite.

7"curb height... I measured it! on a slight up slope 2% +-

2W-High - 1350, rear tires started to light up and no way.

2W-High - poked the throttle to about 1400, up and over.



4W-High - 1400, up and over, no tire turning.



FWIW.



Bob

 

[GLASMITHS]

Auto better than standard!!

Stakeman: No I am not saying an auto is better. We are talking personal preferences here. I drove from Phoenix to Lake Charles without having to downshift, for that reason. If you love your 6 speed, and just love to shift, so be it. Just like a/c, we could turn it off and sweat and get better milage, more power, ect. But this is 2002, we are lazy, don't like to shift, and there is the basis for the discussion. ATS, or DTT, BD,DR P---------



The idea is t6 maintain your normal speed over hill when traveling long distances. I'm sure this is not a big deal tor EarthRomer.

I'll state it again, with my low hp, I cannot go over large hills without shifting down, either the t/c or transmission. Since I don't want to loose speed, I unlock the t/c. That is my preference. Convenience, just like the a/c and heater. I choose DTT because with the t/c unlocked the transmission temp does not spike upwards to dangerous levels. MPG and wasted power is not considered. If I was worried about that we would have bought a pop-up and hooked it behing my wifes mini-van

 

[JConley]

Animal.



You and I are thinking along the same lines. I have a DTT VB, and while at ATS, I was trying to find a way to use it with a tripple lock TC. Fact is I can not use my DTT VB if I go with a tripple lock TC because the line pressures are just too high. I am willing to bet that you wont be able to use a ATS VB with a DTT TC since the pressures wont be high enough.

 

[Fred Swanson]

Think about what your comparing

Guys, you can't compare an automatic to a manual in a locked situation, because there are other variables you have to consider.

The amount your towing, headwinds, gear ratio, tire size and of course the different power and torque curves. The ECM for the manual kicks torque in earlier. But most important, the manual has one or 2 more gears that are more closer in ratio, so downshifting isn't a considerabel RPM drop compared to an auto.

Having a more efficient stator does allow you to pop it out of lockup, to pull a hill you may not be able to pull because of these conditions.

Sometimes you may have to downshift, too.



DTT's approach to a more efficient stator is so you can be in or out of lockup. Their clutch holds just fine, and like GLASMITHS said, there are times that when pulling heavy, you don't need to downshift, just pop it out of lockup.



I was just on the same stretch of highway less than 2 weeks ago, pulling 3 trailers from Texas back to Phoenix. Somewhere around 18,000 lb. trailer weight.



While cruising down the highway in lockup, trans temps NEVER went over 145, the entire trip. In town out of lockup, the temps never went over 190. Again this is on the cooler line, coming straight out of the converter. I had one or two hills, that I started out in 3rd locked, and towards the top, instead of downshifting to 2nd, I just popped it out of lockup and pulled to the top. Again, the temps did not spike. They won't with a more efficient stator, compared to stock or milled or whatever.



EarthRoamer, you made a comment long back that said your shifts were smoother with the ATS converter locked between shifts than with your 99 BD setup. Because you are an engineer, I hope you fully understand how those can be possible. I hope you don't think dampner springs on a lockup clutch are solely responsible for this.



Remember your stock trannies guys, they shifted soft and smooth. Why? Because stock line pressures allow clutches to slip. Why do you think the newer models use ATF-4? To make for smoother, softer shifts. The average new truck(car) buyer does not want a firm hard shifting automatic.



Keep rereading previous posts. How many Dodge owners have stock HP, still. I don't see too many stock trucks, if they were, they change when I do the transmissions. The fact is, not too many are still running around stock, and under stock HP, and factory pressures, the stock automatic can last. All of the aftermarket transmission companies take the same approach, more HP, higher line pressures. I think you'll find this true, by reading these posts again and again.



If you want locked to locked shifts, that's fine. It does come with a price, though. I'm sorry, no matter what someone tells you, you have to slip something to get smoother, softer shifts, even more so when your doing it locked up the entire time. That is a given.



EarthRoamer, are you ever down towards Phoenix? I'd love to check out your setup.

 

[JTBMC]

Fred I know this may sound stupid, I'm new to auto's, this is my first one. How do you pop it out of lock up. and do you have to let off the fuel to in-gauge & dis-ingauge the over drive button.

I'm one of those Neanderthals that still trys to push in the clutch when coming to a stop.

TJ

 

[RustyJC]

Originally posted by tjlaffite

I'm one of those Neanderthals that still tries to push in the clutch when coming to a stop.

Yep, me too! Happens every time I try to drive my wife's Durango.



Rusty

 

[TKilgore]

curb test

BushWakr - thanks for doing the test. I just want to make sure I understand... ..... The 91% tc WILL get a load moving against an obstacle at less than 2000 rpm (way less in your case)



JConley - your comments answered another of my questions. Thank You



Fred Swanson - Are you using the smart controller to unlock the tc as you did in 3rd? Can the smart controller be used with just the DTT vb and stock tc? Any chance you will open a shop EAST of the Mississippi? LOL



Tom

 

[tmurray]

Patent Search

I did a patent search for the number that was listed on ATS advertising in TDR issue 35, page 97 and it turned up as "Method for processing of organic materials containing nitrogen compounds". This must have been a typo on there part?



Tom



http://www.uspto.gov/patft/index.html

 

[GLASMITHS]

"Popping it out of lock-up"

TJ: Speaking for my set up (DTT). I have the DTT Smart Controller.

You can set the t/c to dis-engage at preset throttle positions(normally 80%). This means when you have it on and push the throttle down 80% the t/c will disengage; like an overdrive. You can let it re-lock by letting your foot off slightly. It is a very neat arrangement. It will also downshift out of o/d at 50mph if you have the exhaust brake engaged; and you can downshift locked:--) to 2nd with the brake engaged. Keeps your rpm up.

 

[Fred Swanson]

TKilgore, yes currently I am using the DTT Smart Controller. I have also used their T/C Saver module, which is just for this purpose.

Yes, it can be used with just the DTT vb. But it is really designed for both the v/b and t/c.



East of the Mississippi? Stranger things have happened.



tjlaffite, with either device listed here, you can have it disengage lockup at a preset throttle position. As soon as you let up enough, it will re-engage lockup. This is adjustable for your individual needs. The box has LED indicators to let you know what it is doing, too.





Fred

 

[Cummins Corvette]

Originally posted by azgearpro

Formely known as canderson, the reason your truck stalls is not the convertors fault but your gov springs that you have installed. I know you have pointed this out. They are adjusted to tight, you need to adjust them out aleast one click, and make sure each side reads the same reading when check by calipers.

My gov. springs were installed by Piers, so I know it was done correctly. It also did this when the truck was stock. Bone stock converter and governer. So no, it is not a problem with the springs.