edge insight and my dealership

[Ossie2]

How bout it chopper698. Since I got my 09 I had the same problem with my dealer and tech. We had a short discussion and they appologized and went back to work on checking for and updating with the latest flashes. I had them place a notation in my file in cap red letters " this EDGE Insight is only a monitor and not a programmer " and had the service manager sign it. End of problem

As a note: I mentioned that every vehicle owner is protected by federal law under the Magnuson-Moss Warranty - Federal Trade Commission Improvement Act, section 2302(a). Check out this site Aftermarket Part Installation and Factory Warranty and look for: What you should know about vehicle warranties and what your dealer may tell you. It's good reading.

 

[Bob4x4]

There are inaccuracies in that read... ... ... .



I tried to copy and paste but it must be protected from doing so.

They claimed no vehicle has been denied warranty because of their product since 98-completely un true

I have seen it and watched the owner of the truck get absolutely Zero help from Banks and his Lawyer also got no where except taking his clients money.

Do Not take any thing Gale Banks says as gospel. He has reworded much of his marketing to be closer to the truth.

Any time you add power or modify emisions you will lose on a warranty issue in regards to power train

 

[Bob4x4]

To go one step further I have a friend who worked at a Cummins dealer who was a B series specialist,and worked on both Pick-ups and Motorhomes. He had MANY coaches towed in with engine melt downs that were Banks equipped. With out exception Banks did not step up as in your link they claimed,it was also not a rare occurance as Banks claimed in your link.

 

[HBarlow]

Folks, in case you don't know, Bob4x4 who wrote the post above is a Dodge dealer tech, Dodge-Cummins owner, and drives a modified truck. He is speaking truth.

I personally have NO interest in whether any of you choose to modify your trucks. It is your truck, your money, and your right to do whatever you please.

My interest is in posting the truth here in the pages of the TDR forum when the question arises or when necessary to express an opposing opinion when someone posts incorrect or false information regarding Dodge manufacturer's warranties and use of aftermarket performance parts.

Do not believe the bs that the aftermarket industry telephone salesmen or your buddies tell you. You buy the aftermarket performance parts, install them in your truck, and when you melt a piston or worse or destroy your transmission you will find out your Dodge factory warranty is NULL and VOID. SEMA, Banks, BD, or your brother-in-law are not going to pay to replace your engine after your Dodge dealer tells you the sad news.

Sure, you can hire a lawyer and bluff and bluster about the Magnuson-Moss consumer protection act but, like Bob wrote above, you will still lose.

Chrysler, Dodge, GM, and Furd have deep pockets, hundreds of highly educated and knowledgeable engineers, and dozens of lawyers to handle bogus lawsuits.

 

[DMosby]

A different question, but related to the topic that was the start of this thread. Do we have any of the smart folks in the RAM repair field on board that can tell us:

1) Is it possible for an OBD2 monitoring device to alter the engine performance in any way? Is the device simply watching a data stream go by or is it actually communicating with the engine computer in such a way that it could possibly (unintentionally) alter operation?

2) Could a device connected to the OBD2 port actually change operation of the vehicle if it wished to do so. I know you can clear codes from the OBD2 port but can other engine parameters also be modified such that operation would be altered?

 

[Bob4x4]

A different question, but related to the topic that was the start of this thread. Do we have any of the smart folks in the RAM repair field on board that can tell us:



1) Is it possible for an OBD2 monitoring device to alter the engine performance in any way? Is the device simply watching a data stream go by or is it actually communicating with the engine computer in such a way that it could possibly (unintentionally) alter operation?



2) Could a device connected to the OBD2 port actually change operation of the vehicle if it wished to do so. I know you can clear codes from the OBD2 port but can other engine parameters also be modified such that operation would be altered?

On your #1 a true monitoring device would not be an issue unless it were for example short itself and damage the trucks electronics or wirirng.

#2 yes a device plugged into the obd2 port can change power characteristics as well as trans operation

 

[HBarlow]

DMosby's thoughtful question and Bob's excellent answer remind me of another question that even I can ask and answer.

Question: Can a good Dodge dealership tech detect if a truck owner has used a magic black box during the past but has removed it and driven his truck for some period of time before taking it to the dealership?

Answer: Yes. (Dealer techs feel free to correct me if I am wrong or my answer is incomplete. )

A dealer tech with considerable knowledge and experience printed out my ECM data on my previous '06 and a fellow TDR member/dealership tech who is also very knowledgeable and experienced printed out the the ECM data on my present '08.

Both dealer techs did a "show and tell" for me explaining what the data meant. In the case of my '08, our fellow TDR member/tech showed me how he could identify the telltale clues if I had used a programmer on my truck.

With the current economy, relatively slow sales of new trucks, and the weakened condition Chrysler/Dodge/Ram were left in after the Daimler then Cerberus ownership and looting period, IMO, an owner who suffers a destroyed engine because of use of aftermarket performance parts and a heavy foot is very unlikely to fool the dealership and less likely to convince or bully RAM into giving him a free $16,000 engine.

One of the first things I learned after joining TDR was "I am my own warranty station. " I have remembered that phrase of wisdom for ten years and three Dodge Rams.

 

[TCDiesel]

:-laf Your truck was not designed to tow a 38ft trailer. I was also refering to the 6. 7 not 5. 9.

Chrysler was no where near as concerned about mods on the 5,9 compared to the 6. 7.

Good Point... ...

 

[TCDiesel]

There are inaccuracies in that read... ... ... .



I tried to copy and paste but it must be protected from doing so.

They claimed no vehicle has been denied warranty because of their product since 98-completely un true

I have seen it and watched the owner of the truck get absolutely Zero help from Banks and his Lawyer also got no where except taking his clients money.

Do Not take any thing Gale Banks says as gospel. He has reworded much of his marketing to be closer to the truth.

Any time you add power or modify emisions you will lose on a warranty issue in regards to power train

Yep... BC Banks Corporate saw the dangerous Edge their were on... . Most owners cannot grasp the thought that NEW vehicles have build in communications J1850/Bus etc, adding any device can interrupts the signal. . Just unplug the Device or remove it... . when dealer service is necessary.

Now MMA does NOT apply when you REMOVE FACTORY component's or ADD any type of performance enhancement(s). . EPA will trump any Manufacture or owner claim...



Here's the Joker... The dealer only needs to state that the vehicle had added equipment to alter mandated emission clause. . This statement alone trumps anything you can do... it will not void your warranty. . but your repairs will not be performed.



On a side note I hate edge products. . their company POC.

 

[craiggo]

Keep in mind the context of this conversation was not "Any time you add power or modify emisions you will lose on a warranty issue in regards to power train. "

This was simply adding a Edge Insight Gauge pod which was read only. Not all contacts on the ODBII connector are "writable" many are read only.

Once Banks offers their gauge set, I will be adding one to my 6. 7 (it's currently in final stages of testing I'm told).

I will see if it throws codes or if the dealer denies my warranty and report my experiences.

 

[HBarlow]

I don't think anyone is arguing that any aftermarket product or any aftermarket gauge set will void a warranty, I am certainly not.

Actually I think the discussion started when an owner with a digital device reported that his dealership service department thought it was capable of altering parameters and voided, threatened to void his warranty, or refused service, I don't remember the details now.

I don't know if those devices are capable of modifying or not but if the dealer believes it does I think it is unwise to get into a battle with them. It would be smarter to remove the device before the service visit.

 

[AH64ID]

I don't think anyone is arguing that any aftermarket product or any aftermarket gauge set will void a warranty, I am certainly not.

Actually I think the discussion started when an owner with a digital device reported that his dealership service department thought it was capable of altering parameters and voided, threatened to void his warranty, or refused service, I don't remember the details now.

I don't know if those devices are capable of modifying or not but if the dealer believes it does I think it is unwise to get into a battle with them. It would be smarter to remove the device before the service visit.

Actually you have been pretty blatant in this thread stating the opposite. This thread is about an Edge Insight and warranty, and its a reader only. It's no different than an analog EGT or boost gauge, it reads and CANNOT write or alter.

I think you expect too much. Try to put yourself in the position of the dealership, the tech, service writer, and service manager. They are warned to watch for aftermarket modifications. They have no idea what aftermarket electronic devices are capable of and no reason to waste their time trying to find out. They only know that they suspect them because they are often responsible for damaged engines and if they repair something under warranty that Dodge believes is caused by a magic black box the dealer will get the parts and labor charged back to them.

If I was the tech I would have no interest in reading your literature and would refuse to look at it. How does he know it is accurate, honest, or even related to the device he sees on the truck? Some of you guys believe in those products, have experience and knowledge of them, so you are confident that they only do certain things and don't do other things. You expect dealers to know and believe like you do. It's not realistic to expect to use those products and have your warranty cover expensive repairs.

You may know that but to the dealership it is a magic black box, they don't know what it does, and have no responsibility to learn.

If I was the service manager and suspected the black box was the cause I would void the warranty or request that Dodge does.

You can save that argument for a slick lawyer being paid by you to use in the courtroom. It would be up to you and your lawyer and a string of paid experts to convince a judge or jury the magic black box didn't trash his engine.

My grandson had one of those fancy black boxes on a 2005 or 2006 several years ago. It had all the digital displays also but altered the engine operating parameters. It ran strong. He quietly traded the Dodge off after I rode in it once. He never said anything about it so I don't know but figured his engine developed problems.

Do you really think the dealer should know which magic black box is only able to read engine operating characteristics and which can alter them? Or do you really believe the dealer should accept the word of the guy who wants thousands of dollars worth of free engine parts and labor but has a mysterious electronic box on the dash?

I don't and the guy who started this thread has already learned that his dealer doesn't.

I am quite certain that if you were the service manager and had an attitude like that then your dealership would fail. I don't beleive that Dodge should honor my warranty when I modify my truck, but a complete denial of anything, with proof it does nothing, is not good for business.

 

[HBarlow]

If you are not capable of reading my comment posted earlier and understanding that all the statements I made are completely compatible with what I wrote today you have a problem with reading comprehension or simply didn't read what I wrote or attempt to understand it.

I stand by every single one of the statements I made.

 

[AH64ID]

You can clearly see where you have said it would be voided by you if you were the service manager. . not sure how that jives with today's comment?

This thread is about an aftermarket gauge, nothing more.

 

[HBarlow]

You can clearly see where you have said it would be voided by you if you were the service manager. . not sure how that jives with today's comment?

This thread is about an aftermarket gauge, nothing more.

No, it is not. The discussion is about whether the manufacturer can void the warranty and whether the truck owner can force the manufacturer to repair a modified truck under warranty.

In all this thread discussion I have made basically three points:

1. I do not know whether the digital gauge device is capable or is not capable of modifying factory programming. I have said that more than once.

2. Installation of aftermarket parts or devices capable of altering performance will probably be detected by a dealer and if detected will result in a voided warranty.

3. If the manufacturer voids the warranty bluff, bluster, and threats from the owner will not accomplish a thing. Likewise, waving a copy of the Magnuson-Moss Act will not impress a dealer. And the hiring of an attorney to sue one or more dealer employees, the dealership, or the manufacturer is only likely to allow the man who modified his truck to spend a lot of money and emotion and ultimately will lose his case.

I think someone earlier in this discussion expressed the opinion that even the digital gauge sets can modify programming. I don't know if they can and take no position on that issue.

But here is the key: IF the dealership tech thinks the aftermarket part, whatever it is, from air cleaner element to electronic programmer has modified the truck and reports it to his service manager who initiates voiding of the warranty by contacting Dodge/Ram - - - THE WARRANTY IS VOID. It doesn't make much difference if the tech, the dealership, or the manufacturer is correct. Their opinion counts.

If I were the service manager and a sharp and experienced tech told me there was evidence of alteration or damage caused by the aftermarket part I would not waste time arguing with the consumer or reading advertising hype printed by one of the aftermarket parts manufacturers or retailers. I am not interested in their statements because I know they lie.

 

[HBarlow]

I have the edge insight for the extra gauges and the egt probe and also like the fact it tells you when your in regen. So yesterday I dropped off my truck for a check engine light and a sensor code. I get a phone call 10 min ago and was told yes sir your power booster is causing your engine light to come and come up oxygen sensor. When we unplug your so called power booster the engine light goes off. I said your mistaken that's not a power booster its just gauges, they said if it happens again they won't warranty it!! Are you kidding me?

The title of this thread was not Edge Insight it was Edge Insight and my dealer.

Above is the opening post in this thread.

The dealer tech reported that when he removed the aftermarket device the CEL cleared.

That is the subject of the thread and is what I commented on repeatedly.

If the original title had been; "What Does an Edge Insight Do?" it would have been about that device and I would have ignored it.

If it had been "Can My Edge Insight Modify My Engine" I would have ignored the thread. I know nothing about those devices.

The discussion has centered on whether it is appropriate for the dealer/manufacturer to viod the warranty.

 

[AH64ID]

You can't support their decision and then state that gauges shouldn't void a warranty. It really doesn't matter if you can't understand the function of a gauge, that's your short coming. . and apparently the dealers as well.

There are falsities in the dealers statement, and those falsities should not play into a dealers decision.

 

[HBarlow]

I don't know what your statement above meant.

I can and do support all of my statements in this thread.

The point here, and obviously one you don't like, it doesn't matter very much whether the dealer is right or wrong. Ultimately it is Chrysler/Dodge/Ram that makes the final decision.

You like performance products, may even be a retailer or installer, you think the manufacturer and dealer's should take a very lenient approach to performance modifications.

They are the folks who fund and perform warranty repairs and clearly do not share your point of view.

So who do you think is going to win . . . you, Banks, BD, the consumer who modified his truck, or the manufacturer?

 

[HBarlow]

Oh, I understand your meaning now.

I don't necessarily support their decision in this matter, I'm simply saying (repeatedly for some who are slow) that their decision is final. That is the point. Only an expensive trial could possibly reverse their decision and with the experts they have available their likelihood of losing is small.

Where did I say gauges should not void a warranty? Are you twisting my words? The Edge Insight is not "gauges" it is a digital device which apparently displays various engine parameters. Whether it can also modify engine parameters is a matter in some dispute.

You can stuff your cheap throwaway insult. I have owned and used sets of analog gauges (real gauges that are read only) on my Dodge Rams since summer of 2001 shortly after I bought my first Dodge-Cummins.

Perhaps it is you who is not clear on the definition of the word gauges. I have never had a dealer try to void my warranty for use of aftermarket analog gauges.

 

[AH64ID]

Where did I say gauges should not void a warranty? Are you twisting my words?

This is what you said.

I don't think anyone is arguing that any aftermarket product or any aftermarket gauge set will void a warranty, I am certainly not.

You can stuff your cheap throwaway insult. I have owned and used sets of analog gauges (real gauges that are read only) on my Dodge Rams since summer of 2001 shortly after I bought my first Dodge-Cummins.



Perhaps it is you who is not clear on the definition of the word gauges. I have never had a dealer try to void my warranty for use of aftermarket analog gauges.

Gauges are gauges, and the Insight is simply a digital readout of some of the same data the analog gauges show, in addition to some others. But EGT for one on the Insight still has a EGT probe in the manifold, fuel pressure is still read thru an aftermarket sender. The insight is just a more complex gauge, I believe you are the only one who doesn't understand that it doesn't have the ability to modify engine parameters.

The Edge Insight is not "gauges" it is a digital device which apparently displays various engine parameters. Whether it can also modify engine parameters is a matter in some dispute.

Also just because a analog gauge has an analog reading doesn't mean that its not a digital signal or digital device. The only gauges on my truck that are true "analog" are boost and drive pressure. The EGT, fuel psi, and oil psi are digital gauges with an analog display, it's just how good electric gauges work these days.



So how would you describe a device that displays various engine parameters? Are boost/EGT/fuel pressure/rail pressure/etc not engine parameters.



If you were to spend a few of the minutes reading about the insight instead of arguing about it you would learn that its a read only device.



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