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edge insight and my dealership

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Opinions on 2008 3500 Laramie Dually

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You don't like my position on the issue so you want to spend the evening nitpicking my words. I don't think you or anyone else are really unclear on my position. It is basically this: You modify a truck that is in warranty and you are your own warranty station. That position, not coincidentally, is also the manufacturer's position.

I don't care whether you like my position or not.
 
I don't disagree with that position. I have not ever, nor plan to, expect Dodge to pay for something I modified and broke. That being said I don't expect them to make me pay from something that broke in a true warranty scenario when they get confused about a gauge.

Your statements in this thread contradict this position, simply because you and the dealership don't know what the monitor is doing and don't care to learn because you would rather argue about it than learn about it.
 
From the horse's mouth:

Certain changes that you might make to your vehicle do not, by
themselves, void the warranties. But your warranties don't cover any
part that we didn't supply. Nor do they cover the costs of any repairs
or adjustments that might be caused or needed because of the
installation or use of non-Chrysler Group parts, components, equipment,
materials or additives.

Please refer to the warranty information booklet that came with the
vehicle for details on how modifications could affect your warranty
coverages. Some modifications do not void warranties. Your warranty does
not cover any part not supplied by Chrysler Group LLC, nor does it cover
the costs of any repairs or adjustments that might be caused or needed
because of the installation or use of non-Chrylser Group parts,
components, equipment, materials or additives.

You may download recent model year Warranty Booklets on the brand
website links: Ram - https://www.dodge.com/crossbrand/warranty/?brand=
 
Good info!

From the horse's mouth:



Certain changes that you might make to your vehicle do not, by

themselves, void the warranties. But your warranties don't cover any

part that we didn't supply. Nor do they cover the costs of any repairs

or adjustments that might be caused or needed because of the

installation or use of non-Chrysler Group parts, components, equipment,

materials or additives.



Please refer to the warranty information booklet that came with the

vehicle for details on how modifications could affect your warranty

coverages. Some modifications do not void warranties. Your warranty does

not cover any part not supplied by Chrysler Group LLC, nor does it cover

the costs of any repairs or adjustments that might be caused or needed

because of the installation or use of non-Chrylser Group parts,

components, equipment, materials or additives.



You may download recent model year Warranty Booklets on the brand

website links: Ram - https://www.dodge.com/crossbrand/warranty/?brand=



Good link! I will add it to my desktop folder (Dodge 2008) on my laptop for reference.



Cheers,

Ken
 
Just to clear this out about what the MMWA does and doesn't say...

Taken right out of the Code of Federal Regulations, Title 16 - Commercial Practices, Chapter I - Federal Trade Commission, Subchapter G - Rules, Regulations, Statements and Interpretations under the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act, Part 700 - Interpretations under the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act. Contained within these rules and regulations is Section 700. 10, which states:



"Under the Magnuson-Moss Act, a dealer must prove, not just vocalize, that aftermarket equipment caused the need for repairs before it can deny warranty coverage. If the dealer cannot prove such a claim — or it proffers a questionable explanation — it is your legal right to demand compliance with the warranty. The Federal Trade Commission administers the Magnuson-Moss Act and monitors compliance with warranty law. " :eek: :D



So, if anyone else wishes to share their opinion on aftermarket products, feel free, but the OP's original question is answered and we can all, otherwise, consider this subject closed.



But thank you all for your opinions, observations, comments, etc. ! It was GREAT reading!!! And no, I'm not a lawyer, nor am I in any way employed by or affiliated with a dealership or after-market manufacturer or distributor... ;)



Mark
 
Taken right out of the Code of Federal Regulations, Title 16 - Commercial Practices, Chapter I - Federal Trade Commission, Subchapter G - Rules, Regulations, Statements and Interpretations under the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act, Part 700 - Interpretations under the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act. Contained within these rules and regulations is Section 700. 10, which states:

"Under the Magnuson-Moss Act, a dealer must prove, not just vocalize, that aftermarket equipment caused the need for repairs before it can deny warranty coverage. If the dealer cannot prove such a claim — or it proffers a questionable explanation — it is your legal right to demand compliance with the warranty. The Federal Trade Commission administers the Magnuson-Moss Act and monitors compliance with warranty law. " :eek: :D

So, if anyone else wishes to share their opinion on aftermarket products, feel free, but the OP's original question is answered and we can all, otherwise, consider this subject closed.

But thank you all for your opinions, observations, comments, etc. ! It was GREAT reading!!! And no, I'm not a lawyer, nor am I in any way employed by or affiliated with a dealership or after-market manufacturer or distributor... ;)

Mark

The argument may be closed in your little dream world but the statements I and others have made on the same subject are still true and accurate.

All a dealer or Chrysler has to do is refuse service and report their observations to a Chrysler service rep. Once they void your warranty it is VOID and the responsibility becomes yours to challenge it at your expense.

I have been reading angry comments from owners of modified trucks whose warranties were voided blaming their dealer and Chrysler for unfair illegal practices, bluffing and blustering about lawyers and lawsuits, and dreaming like you are for many years of TDR membership.

In 10 years of membership and reading lots of similar posts there has never been a single one who has come back to the forum and explained how he won his case and his warranty was restored. Likewise, no member has ever been able to cite an example where anyone of his acquaintance overturned a voided warranty.

Dream on if you wish.

BTW, your bold second sentence was not "taken right out of the MMA" as you claim. It has been altered with personal opinion comments.

Try posting the original text not BS if you want to prove anything.
 
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1st HB Every case that I have Challenge the Auto Maker never Made it to court except once ... . The Judge Never rule on the case He suggested that the Dealer attempt at least repairs. . which they did and the vehicle was with new ECM and throttle bodies. MM does NOT apply WHEN YOU ADD OR MODIFY FACTORY COMPONENT'S. (ADDITIONAL COMPONENT'S) OR ALTER FACTORY PROGRAMING. If you change component's that do NOT alter the factory specs THEN MM APPLIES.

Most aftermarket companies suck in buyers by promising additional performance or added mileage. . this certainly falls under altering conditions.



WHEN ADDING ANY COMPONENT'S OTHER THEN FACTORY THIS PUTS YOUR WARRANTY AT RISK. . ITS THAT SIMPLE DON'T BELIEVE SELLERs OF ALTERING PRODUCT THAT MAKE STATEMENTS THAT THERE PRODUCTS DO NOT VOID THE FACTORY WARRANTY ,Get this statement in some form of legal documention. . if they don't provide one then its just deception. .

2nd nothing More to stay. .
 
Some thoughts...

The argument may be closed in your little dream world but the statements I and others have made on the same subject are still true and accurate.



All a dealer or Chrysler has to do is refuse service and report their observations to a Chrysler service rep. Once they void your warranty it is VOID and the responsibility becomes yours to challenge it at your expense.



I have been reading angry comments from owners of modified trucks whose warranties were voided blaming their dealer and Chrysler for unfair illegal practices, bluffing and blustering about lawyers and lawsuits, and dreaming like you are for many years of TDR membership.



In 10 years of membership and reading lots of similar posts there has never been a single one who has come back to the forum and explained how he won his case and his warranty was restored. Likewise, no member has ever been able to cite an example where anyone of his acquaintance overturned a voided warranty.



Dream on if you wish.



BTW, your bold second sentence was not "taken right out of the MMA" as you claim. It has been altered with personal opinion comments.



Try posting the original text not BS if you want to prove anything.



First, Harvey, please let me re-introduce myself... I used to be MBean from Albuquerque, NM... TDR Member since 2001. Second, let me start by saying that I am NOT ARGUING WITH OR AGAINST YOU OR ANYONE ELSE... Third, I was NOT quoting in the 2nd section. If I actually did, I did not intend to, so I apologize, if that appeared misleading. Fourth, just to make MY position PERFECTLY CLEAR, I LOVE AND LIVE BY THE STANDARD, "YOU ARE YOUR OWN WARRANTY STATION" when you make mods. The greater and/or grander the mod(s), the more the statement applies to you. Sometimes, you might get them to fix it under warranty, sometimes (more than likely), not... Either way, you had better be in a position to BE "YOUR OWN WARRANTY STATION... " I, personally, have read through my "Service Contract" and flat-out asked the Service Manager, General Manager & Owner where I recently purchased my new 2010, and thankfully, they all own & drive Ram CTDs and all three KNOW what the Insight is and exactly what it does and doesn't do. According to all three, I can install the Insight and maintain both my factory warranty and my service contract! :D But I TOTALLY UNDERSTAND that I am NOT the majority in this matter!!! ;) And honestly, that is unfortunate... :(



As for what the dealership does and doesn't have to do, USC Title 15, Section 2304 subparagraph (c) clearly states:

"(c) Waiver of standards: The performance of the duties under subsection (a) of this section shall not be required of the warrantor if he can show that the defect, malfunction, or failure of any warranted consumer product to conform with a written warranty, was caused by damage (not resulting from defect or malfunction) while in the possession of the consumer, or unreasonable use (including failure to provide reasonable and necessary maintenance). "



But just for you, Harvey, here is the section that I possibly mis-quoted. It is directly from 16CFR116700. 12 off the GPOAccess.gov website or the printed version from pages 663 & 664, 2011 version...

"§ 700. 10 Section 102(c).

(a) Section 102(c) prohibits tying arrangements that condition coverage under a written warranty on the consumer’s use of an article or service identified by brand, trade, or corporate name unless that article or service is provided without charge to the consumer.

(b) Under a limited warranty that provides only for replacement of defective parts and no portion of labor charges, section 102(c) prohibits a condition that the consumer use only service (labor) identified by the warrantor to install the replacement parts. A warrantor or his designated representative may not provide parts under the warranty in a manner which impedes or precludes the choice by the consumer of the person or business to perform necessary labor to install such parts.

(c) No warrantor may condition the continued validity of a warranty on the use of only authorized repair service and/or authorized replacement parts for non-warranty service and maintenance. For example, provisions such as, ‘‘This warranty is void if service is performed by anyone other than an authorized ‘ABC’ dealer and all replacement parts must be genuine ‘ABC’ parts,’’ and the like, are prohibited where the service or parts are not covered by the warranty. These provisions violate the Act in two ways. First, they violate the section 102 (c) ban against tying arrangements. Second, such provisions are deceptive under section 110 of the Act, because a warrantor cannot, as a matter of law, avoid liability under a written warranty where a defect is unrelated to the use by a consumer of ‘‘unauthorized’’ articles or service. This does not preclude a warrantor from expressly excluding liability for defects or damage caused by such ‘‘unauthorized’’ articles or service; nor does it preclude the warrantor from denying liability where the warrantor can demonstrate that the defect or damage was so caused. "



For the record, I have TWICE returned a vehicle that either I or my Step-Father purchased through his business, successfully to the respective dealership from which it was originally purchased. BOTH trucks had significant mechanical "issues" from the original purchase date. The first had constant over-heating issues, regardless of ambient temperature or load. And the second had constant vibration from within the front axle. They replaced the radiator on the first truck EIGHT TIMES, culminating with the installation of radiator nearly twice the size of the original, several thermostats and numerous other internal parts. The second truck they checked and tightened EVERYTHING under the truck from front to rear, TWICE; replaced the drive shafts, wheel bearings, wheels, tires, brakes... Basically, EVERYTHING BUT THE ENTIRE AXLE. With the first truck, they claimed everything we had on the truck was, in some way responsible for the over-heating, including our color choice (black)!!!. On the second, they were convinced that it was the after-market replacement bumper that was responsible for the vibration. In the end, the dealership bought back BOTH trucks and gave us ALL our $$$ back, plus anything we had paid for (including accessories) AND fully paid our attorney's fees, BOTH TIMES. We NEVER went to court on either vehicle. The first truck took about 6 months to come to a "fair and equitable agreement" on, and all it took was a couple of phone calls to the owner on the second truck. Granted, these were a GMC and a Chevy, but... Now, you know why we all drive NOTHING but CTDs... :D



Oh, and I don't live in, nor am I mislead by, a dream world, and quite frankly, I don't really care for your condescension, intentional or accidental... I have read several of your posts, past & present, and if you are not intentionally being condescending, then you might want to re-read through your entry (even aloud) before you post it, because you have several times come across in exactly that way. I honestly respect you, your point of view and your opinions on everything concerning CTDs. I hope you enjoy your day & I sincerely thank you for your MANY contributions to the TDR!!! ;)



Sincerely,

Mark
 
Thanks for retracting your original claims. Now we are in agreement.

Did you forget to mention that you returned two GM trucks using the provisions of your state's Lemon Law?
 
Actually, Harvey, due to the "Voided Warranty", both of these were actually turned in under Magnuson-Moss, due to the fact that the dealership discontinued the factory warranty and flat out refused to even have our trucks on their premises. Their official position was, "because our trained and certified mechanics are of the opinion that you HAD to have modified the original design specifications to cause the failure and our inability to locate or identify the cause. " as per the actual written agreement. But you are correct, Harvey, in that we could also have used the Washington State Lemon Law and possibly ended up in the same location, but?. ?. ? Well, we didn't. ;)
Mark
 
and now GM is saying they don't have to perform pre-bankruptcy warranty work



will Chrysler follow suit? in my opinion and only my opinion from others I know and what I have read I believe Chrysler has attempted to limit warranty repairs on their pre-bankruptcy vehicles



I also believe they are not reimbursed at the same rate on pre and post bankruptcy repair work



again, those are my thought, I have no proof



but Obama guaranteed all warranties for both GM and Chrysler so I'm sure it will all be taken care of promptly



this thread has certainly been entertaining and informative
 
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OK Everyone

Has anyone contacted Edge for their opinion. I was just looking at Geno's new catalog and it states you can "read and clear codes" if that is the case then it IS considered a program module. My commander is not connected to the ODB and therefore cannot write to the bus and no dealer from Florida to Kokomo has ever even asked about it. On the other hand ( not sure which 1 that is) if a Chrysler dealer any where at any time installed this using a Chrysler mechanic in a Chrysler facility then that is tacit permission that it is under warranty with the rest of the truck UNLESS they tell you and you sign a statement that it is not approved by Chrysler Corp. As 1 apple can spoil the whole bunch 1 dealer can make the whole Corp. responsible. If this Edge product can void a warranty and Edge does not disclose this then THEY are now your warranty provider.

Fred
 
i have the msd dashhawk, and it will read and clear codes. well it says, that it clears them.
the codes i wrote down, didn't have the same numbers the dealer saw on their reader.
so a lot of good it is to check codes. it does monitor the transmission temps, boost, fuel pressure, ect.

i have had my truck serviced at several dealerships, they have had no issues with the dashhawk hooked up.
one repair shop ask how i liked it. which i said that it did almost everything i bought it to do.
like monitor the trans temp when towing. when asked where to get one. i would have to explain that they were no longer available.
and proceeded to explain why. (below)

edge bought the rights from msd and made the insight.
which looks almost the same. the edge has a few more features.
i wish that edge would of provided a software upgrade for owners of the msd units.
as the same programers went to work for them... .
i bought my dashhawk after edge had already bought the rights to the unit.
msd and edge should at least support these units. that were sold, just to remove stock...
i used to buy msd ignition modules for my rigs.
not anymore, due to not supporting a product sold with their name on it.
edge won't see any of my money for my next scanner/monitor either.
due to the above stated reasons.
the monitors are good products, but i refuse to support a company that will not support their products.
i do have to mention that edge has offered a buy back program, $100 off a new insight.
yea, like i'll spend $200 extra for a product that is basically the same as i already have.
cc
 
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Not that easy of a question...

DMosby,



I am not, nor have I ever claimed to be anything associated with the "RAM repair field", but both of these questions are in fact, one. And the simple answer is YES!!! But could also be NO.



YES, because any device CAN use the OBDII port to control the ECM and it's programming.



Conversely, NO, because in addition to the device utilizing the OBDII port, there must be the necessary programming (aka a "controller") to "control" the ECM and thereby change the drive train's operation. Any device can use the OBDII port to merely monitor the many booklets of information that can be accessed through the OBDII port.



This is why you can monitor all of the same operating parameters with both the Edge Insight CTS as the Edge Juice w/ Attitude CTS. Both use the OBDII to monitor the many drive train operating parameters, but when you add the "controller" or "programmer" (in this case the Juice), it utilizes the OBDII port to access the ECM to make changes to the operating parameters of the drive train.



This is why when a Service Tech sees a device, let's pick the Edge Insight, he many times may possibly tell his Service Writer/Manager that you have a programmer installed on the truck. The visual differences between the Edge Insight CTS and the Edge Juice w/ Attitude CTS are TOTALLY NON-EXISTENT in the cab, because they both utilize the same exact screen unit... The CTS.



The difference is in the "controller" or the lack therof. Here are the pictures. On the left is the "official" Edge Insight CTS (a "monitor") & on the right is the "official" Edge Juice w/ Attitude CTS (a "controller or programmer"). I truly hope this helps you to understand the difference(s) or lack thereof. :cool:



Mark
 
Yes, it was excellent.

Now I understand why the dealership in the OP thought the device was a programmer and responsible.

The dealership tech has no way of knowing which of those devices is a digital display and which is a programmer - and he has no responsibility to know.
 
If the photos are accurate, this situation is further confused by the Insight (on the left) showing a Power Level adjustment on the screen with up and down arrows. Even if this feature is disabled on the Insight, its mere presence is enough to make a service tech think that the device is a performance-enhancing programmer.



Rusty
 
Chrysler spends much time and money to train its tech's and service writers to see abuse cases of warranty but like all things its not what you know but WHO you know. The warranty advisor has full authority to allow or reject a claim and if a district rep is called he will adhere to the company policy over the local. It's not fun to be put in that position and can cost you your job. Don't make your friend have to pick between you and Chrysler, remove the object if you have any doubt, do a printout of the mfg. claim of non control o suck up and be your own warranty and take it to a qualified diesel shop and pay for the fix. Your pal may have to move in with you if he looses his job!
 
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