edge insight and my dealership

[craiggo]

The dealership tech has no way of knowing which of those devices is a digital display and which is a programmer - and he has no responsibility to know.

This is not exactly true. I do not disagree with anything said here but with the Insight I had, when you booted it up, it clearly said Insight on it.



Also, digging through the interface, you could see it couldn't program anything, it simply showed more gauge parameters.



Craig

 

[HBarlow]

Do you really expect an ordinary dealership tech to know that or waste the precious time he has trying to make a living studying some goofy magic black box he has no interest whatsoever in?

If I were the tech I sure as hell would not. If I thought the box was a programmer and expensive warranty repairs were in question I would show it to my service manager and recommend we refuse warranty service. Exactly like the OP reported his dealer did.

 

[craiggo]

Do you really expect an ordinary dealership tech to know that or waste the precious time he has trying to make a living studying some goofy magic black box he has no interest whatsoever in?



If I were the tech I sure as hell would not. If I thought the box was a programmer and expensive warranty repairs were in question I would show it to my service manager and recommend we refuse warranty service. Exactly like the OP reported his dealer did.

I would not, you are absolutely correct. But here is the part I struggle with the most: If I'm a highly trained diesel technician (as these techs are) I'm reading Diesel Power, TDR, etc etc all the time and I'm familiar with this stuff. I guess I'm just overly optimistic I'll get "reasonable" service from a professional. But you are correct, it's just a black box to them.

 

[Cosmo]

I would not, you are absolutely correct. But here is the part I struggle with the most: If I'm a highly trained diesel technician (as these techs are) I'm reading Diesel Power, TDR, etc etc all the time and I'm familiar with this stuff. I guess I'm just overly optimistic I'll get "reasonable" service from a professional. But you are correct, it's just a black box to them.

There is a difference between a highly trained tech and an enthusiast. A lot of techs who go to Cummins/Dodge/whatever school have been in the industry forever and they get burned out on these things, so the last thing they want to do when they get home is read and study more stuff that doesn't pertain to their job.

 

[DJW]

Harvey, my feelings on the matter would be. You go to the dealer to have warranty work done, you drive in and explain your problem. You expect the mechanic to be throughly knowledgeable of the vehicle. On viewing the engine, the mechanic sees something he is not familiar with for the engine in question. He should inform the person in charge of repairs, it would be that person to take responsibility for any decision made.
The warranty, also vehicle insurance depends on the VIN.

If the custom after parts manufactures are so sure of their products, the buyer should be issued with a certificate to prove that no harm would be done, provided the part or parts were used and installed as advertised. Of course then the installation would need to be viewed and tested by a person so certified for said product.

 

[MisterBean]

Thanks for the respect...

Thank you all for your acknowledgement of my last posting. I appreciate it. And yes, the "buttons" for the power settings are visible whether the device is on or off, but it doesn't actually do anything when you push it on the Insight.



I'm really with Harvey on the fact that if I was tearing down a motor and expecting to find what we'll basically refer to a "warranty repair job" and I found "some random black box" plugged into the OBDII port, you bet your panties that I would go get my Boss. Now, I'm not saying that it should automatically void a warranty, but it sure as heck would lead me into a more in-depth investigation as to EXACTLY what this black box is and WHAT the heck it does! If it's connected to a truck I'm assigned to work on and I end up finding damage(s) that would/could end up being classified as warranty work, I'm gonna research the heck outta that black box, because I actually like making myself look good to the Boss, especially when all I have to do is SHOW him documentation to back up what I found... And you don't think my name would be on the list of employees deserving a raise this year if I found a couple of folks trying to pull a fast one on my Boss and the rest of the dealership?!?!?!? I understand that these guys live, eat, drink, feel, and probably pee Diesel, but IMHO you honestly cannot expect them all to CARE enough to research the situation... Some do, and many of them are here on TDR...



Mark

 

[HBarlow]

In the real world very few Dodge dealer techs actually own a Dodge with Cummins engine and very few of them have had the opportunity to attend many manufacturer sponsored training classes. Even fewer of them are enthusiasts. They typically hate aftermarket products because they have learned about them from the point of view of the damage they cause and the fights over warranty claims. They know that if they repair something under warranty damaged by aftermarket junk the dealership will not be reimbursed by Chrysler and they could lose their jobs.

Years ago when I had a bad MAP sensor on my '01 I took it to the Lubbock dealer with low power, low boost, and no smoke. The dealership diesel techs couldn't diagnose the problem, had no idea what was wrong. The service manager told me nothing was wrong with the truck. I had gauges and knew the truck's performance very well and was confident I was correct. I called the Cummins dealer in Amarillo. Their service department was clueless. I called Bill Stockard and Joe Donnelly who each suggested MAP sensor. I went back to my dealer and spoke with the young tech who was working on my truck and told him to check the MAP sensor. He proved to himself the sensor was bad, replaced it, and was quite proud. I liked him and talked to him about doing all my work off duty. He has done all my maintenance and repair for ten years now and is a good personal friend. He and his family have been to my home many times. I arranged for him to buy my old '01 HO/six speed at a very low price and my son-in-law carried the note for him. I know all about the inner workings of Dodge dealers from him. I also know two other mechanics from that dealership who are his friends and both have worked on my trucks.

They don't make a lot of money and have had very little training. Many dealerships are unwilling to have them away from the job and unwilling to pay for expensive manufacturer training. My friend is an excellent mechanic but because of the TDR I know much more than they do about the products. He and his buddy have called me several times over the years to ask for advice in repairing somone else's trucks. They know how to change the parts but often not how the part functions or how to diagnose it.

Some TDR members have unrealistic expectations regarding what Dodge dealerships should know or do for them. One of the first things I learned from TDR was this excellent guideline for Dodge-Cummins ownership. When you modify your truck you are your own warranty station. The dealership has no responsibility to know anything at all about aftermarket parts you add to your truck. Aftermarket products cause them a lot of additional work and grief.

 

[LBARTLETT]

My friend is an excellent mechanic but because of the TDR I know much more than they do about the products.

you hit the nail on the head Harvey, unless there is a Chrysler bulletin they ususally know nothing of the problem



when I drove new early year 2nd gen 4X4's I knew much more about the front end steering problems than the dealership, they would have customers call me to tell them how to get Luke's link, steering stabilizer's, etc. that would help fix the sloppy steering



my knowledge all came from the TDR

 

[FPettijohn]

Harvy and L Bartlett

In the real world a 5 star dealer HAS to send their techs to training 1 a year. This has been going on since I worked as a service writer in 1996 and is now not an option. If a tech works on a vehicle he has not been certified on Chrysler can at their discretion decline warranty. I was just at my dealer and confirmed this with the service manager. If there are to many redoes or to many customer complaints the dealer will lose the 5 star rating which is really big bucks in tool cost and district help. I know things in Texas are different but I don't think its that much when it comes to fixing them. Yes Harvey that is a dig. >)

Fred

 

[Bob4x4]

Training requirements have changed many times in the past.

Right now a tech must have training in the skill category of a high enough level for the labor operation performed or Chrysler does not pay. The level required is usually much higher than you would think it should be. For an example replacing the shifter in a Charger requires a level 4(highest) in transmissions.

Once acheiving a level 4 the tech must take up date classes in all his areas to keep that level

The dealers are required to have a minimum number of qualified techs in each skill category for the number of repair orders written at the dealership

It goes on and on... .....

There is not much money to be made in the dealer diesel area because of the very long warranty period on engine and fuel systems. When given the option who does not prefer to be well paid for their time?

Like a Dr who is said to practicemedicine so is it for a tech. The tech that practices more,who sees more issues will be better than one who does not.

When it comes to aftermarket products you will see a bigger gap. To many it is just a job. Just like in any other field there are dedicated people who have passion for what they do and then there are others that fall in line somewhere further down the scale

 

[Bob4x4]

Harvy and L Bartlett

. If a tech works on a vehicle he has not been certified on Chrysler can at their discretion decline warranty. >)

Fred

That is no longer discretionary !

 

[Bob4x4]

you hit the nail on the head Harvey, unless there is a Chrysler bulletin they ususally know nothing of the problem



when I drove new early year 2nd gen 4X4's I knew much more about the front end steering problems than the dealership, they would have customers call me to tell them how to get Luke's link, steering stabilizer's, etc. that would help fix the sloppy steering



my knowledge all came from the TDR

I find your statement offensive and if all your knowledge came from tdr a bit narrow

 

[MullenaxM]

I find your statement offensive and if all your knowledge came from tdr a bit narrow

I agree,



Mike

 

[HBarlow]

Who said anything about a Five Star dealer?

The two Chysler dealers in Lubbock, the ones in Plainview (recently closed), Brownfield (recently closed) Levelland, LaMesa, the surrounding area are not Five Star dealers. There are two in Amarillo - don't remember but doubt they are Five Star.

The dealer in Gainesville where I have bought three Dodge Rams and one Chrysler 300 sedan is a Five Star and very professional.

I don't know what the ratio of Five Star to ordinary dealers is but there are many dealers around that are not Five Star material and make no pretense of being one.

Real world my ***, Pettijohn. I lived and worked in Elkhart, Goshen, Wakarusa, Middlebury, Topeka,Ligonier, Avila, and traveled extensively in Indiana. It may be your world but it is only a very small state.

 

[MullenaxM]

As of right now the only training requirement that Chrysler has to get a warranty claim paid is that the Tech be level 2 or better. Starting January 2012 The requirement moves up to a level 3 tech, Meaning if the skill level of a labor operation is a level 3 or level 4 skill level you must be a level three Technician or Chrysler will not pay the warranty claim.

There are no more " 5 Star" Dealers, Chrysler did away with the 5 Star program. All of the signage you See at the Dealerships That advertise should be gone or soon to be gone.



As to the Tech training, Right now my Dealership along with all the other Dealership in our district are in a Pilot Program that is designed to implement a diagnostic and repair strategy for the 2007 - 2010 6. 7 liter Diesel engine. The program is set up to utilize and standardize a procedure to diagnose and Repair an Emission related problem. If this program works it will be implemented nation wide And is supposed to help technicians Diagnose and repair Emission related problems.

Thats the theory of it...



We have been at it for 5 months now.



Mike

 

[mwilson]

To add to the dealer's point of view from Mike and Bob,



We have to send two techs at a time to Bridgeport, NJ (1200 mile round trip) a week a month for Detroit Diesel engine repair training.

It costs us a fortune in expenses and lost billable hours in the shop for two techs to be gone a full week.

Detroit mandates it to be done so we do it.



Another Detroit Diesel Authorized Dealer in town blew off all the training for a year. Detroit caught up with them and locked them out of the Detroit Diesel system. They couldn't order any Detroit parts nor could they do any Detroit Diesel Warranty work. Once they met all the requirements then their priviliges were reinstated. Took about 6 months... ... :-laf



We were a lot busier..... :-laf



The point is we all operate under very strict rules and procedures that the general public is not even aware of but it appears sometimes to the consumer that we are unwilling to help or are just plain evil but there is always more to it than that.



I present just one small thing of many that a dealer may face...



One of my first missions Monday Morning at work is to try to locate a 2 year old copy of an invoice for a fellow Detroit Diesel Dealer in the state. They performed an engine overhaul on a Mercedes 900 under warranty that had been dusted due to a faulty air intake system. It was in a Freightliner Truck so they purchased a new inner and outer air cleaner element from us at the time of the overhaul.



They submitted the charges for all work to Freightliner / Mercedes and were paid for it.



Now two years later they are undergoing a warranty audit which is a normal procedure every few years.



They chose that particular job as one to examine, no copy of the invoice from us for the elements were with the paperwork so they are IMMEDIATELY charged back the full payment for the repair.



How much, you ask???? Try $14,000. 00 bucks, right now, no arguments!!



The burden of proof is now on the dealer to produce that slip of paper for $100. 00 worth of elements.

That is a taste of the pressure that we all operate under... ... .



Something comes in and looks shaky, we are very careful how it is handled. We have to be.



Mike.

 

[HBarlow]

I should have added to my earlier post . . . the three mechanics I know personally from the Lubbock Dodge dealer have all left that dealership in the last several years and now work in other mechanic positions. The two who were diesel techs were both dissatisfied with their work environment and now earn more money working elsewhere. The third one was an automatic transmission specialist. I'm not sure what he is doing now.

That dealer may be forced under new rules to provide more training than they did previously. I still would not buy from them or take my truck there for service.

 

[gtoli]

WOW!!!!

Thanks for the insight Mike.

Guess I kinda' understand the dealer's position in this economy.

 

[TCDiesel]

Let see ... I need to be finger printed once every two ,Years Have My Back ground checked By the FBI and Pass ALL DOT regulations and test, Keep My health card updated to keep MY HM license... any type of violations will be report and the points system enacted. . To Keep My contractors Lic I must comply to 8 hrs training yearly plus meet all the mandated regulations and Bonds... When I worked for Koch I needed 2 weeks Yearly of training to keep My status or you were lock out until status was met... My Crane operators lic requires training. . this go's on & on... I hate all the intellectual testing that are required in most professional Jobs. . I could only imagine the class room training by Chrysler. . " You need to learn how to listen to us and follow our guide lines and do exactly what we tell YOU... R/R only what we demand or NO payment" WOW a memo could do this. Warranty repair is a nightmare for all Parties do to the foundation most systems are build and applied.

 

[FPettijohn]

Bob 4x4 MullenaxM and Mike

Thanks for the 20911 version of dealership relations with the company's. Training helps everyone from the tech to the customer and especially the service super. Chrysler has an 800 number that a tech can call at anytime (past, not sure now) that is staffed by senior tech's and engineers who if they don't know the answer know where to look and who to ask. They also have "experts" who can if requested by the dealer, solve the really tough 1's.

Harvey don't give me the Texas BS, 1st it was stolen from Mexico and 2nd if it weren't for Dallas and Huston there would only be a few k that was counted on the census and all of them would be from the King ranch:-laf. Texas only has steers and politicians and after this drought their will only be politicians. I really hope the government does more for the Texas farmers this year as they really need it.

Fred