Factory brake controller

[RVTRKN]

My 07 does not have an ITBM, and I'm in a different class of the RAM trucks, being an older 3rd gen truck. But after issues with my truck, AFTER an update on my C&C ECM in 09, at the dealer that caused a glitch. I took it in several times and was told what you were told that, "thats just the new programing". Moving forward to 2019, 10 years after and out of warranties, and no support from dealers. Unless I want to be their Cash Cow (That's not happening), I'm still stuck with it. If they can't find any problem with your ITBM, and claim that is the normal operation. Ask them to disable or remove it FOR FREE, and go with a Tekonsha brake controller. Don't let them forget about it, because like with my 07 C&C, they'll just wait for the warranty to lapse. I've tried several different approaches after warranty was up, to no avail, FCA wont give a hoot about your problem.

I had a Tekonsha on my 04.5 and it worked great. It would lock tires up, if I was pulling an empty trailer without resetting it back to the lighter load. I installed the Brake Smart system on my 07 C&C, (no longer available like the MaxBrake) and it has been flawless. Those controllers are hard to find and makes the ITBM seem inadequate at their best performance. Those controllers work off the hydraulic pressure being applied to your brakes. I don't understand how a $60K truck still uses older technology, that could easily be engineered for a system that uses the actual pressure applied to the brakes.

Good luck with the dealer testing of the ITBM, however don't listen to their BS, if you still have the issue, don't let them forget and document it.

 

[Joseph Sobiech]

I agree with you I have already had one dealer tell me it's working as designed and that is not going to work like I want it to. I told them I just wanted to stop at a stop sign or red light I don't think I'm asking for much.

 

[GCroyle]

I am taking my truck and trailer over to the dealership this Friday and they gonna go for a ride with me.

Really interested in your report after this test drive.

Sounds like progress in the making.

I'm gonna go clean my MaxBrake display.

 

[Wiredawg]

Friends,
Today I did a different google search: Ram truck accidents due to trailer brakes. One hit had pretty good info.
CarComplaints.com
http://m.carcomplaints.com/Ram/3500/2016/brakes/

You can change the years for complaints. After reading all the technical data, it drives less about why/how folks are having problems with there ITBCMs and more why/how those of us who aren't having problems are working.

Frames it differently, in my opinion. I'm curious if my ITBCM current and voltage numbers will the same as folks with problems or will be better? Why are some working?

I'm done for a while. Interested in seeing other folks reports on efforts to remedy.

Cheers. Ron

 

[Joseph Sobiech]

Friends,
Today I did a different google search: Ram truck accidents due to trailer brakes. One hit had pretty good info.
CarComplaints.com
http://m.carcomplaints.com/Ram/3500/2016/brakes/

You can change the years for complaints. After reading all the technical data, it drives less about why/how folks are having problems with there ITBCMs and more why/how those of us who aren't having problems are working.

Frames it differently, in my opinion. I'm curious if my ITBCM current and voltage numbers will the same as folks with problems or will be better? Why are some working?

I'm done for a while. Interested in seeing other folks reports on efforts to remedy.

Cheers. Ron

Well had a chance today to hook a 2018 Dodge ram 3/4 ton up to my camper a Chevy 2015 3/4 ton and my truck 2017 3500 ram and the two rams were both 6.7 V less than 30 miles and the
Chevy was 12.2 V through you thru the windshield.

 

[jhenderson]

When you take your trailer to the dealer and they tell you it’s not the truck, disconnect the umbilical cord, then pull the breakaway switch and give the trailer a tug .They can’t deny the problem at that point.

 

[Joseph Sobiech]

When you take your trailer to the dealer and they tell you it’s not the truck, disconnect the umbilical cord, then pull the breakaway switch and give the trailer a tug .They can’t deny the problem at that point.

Omg that is great will do.

 

[Wiredawg]

Friends,

THIS IS FYI, NO RECOMENDED ACTION.

Today, in the FCA OEM Service Manual, I found procedure for symptom I think most, if not all, have with problems with low voltage output on ITBM without DTCs:

C2129-16 BATTERY VOLTAGE - CIRCUIT VOLTAGE BELOW THRESHOLD

MY SUMMARY: If no DTCs set but circuit voltage below threshold (no voltage values or thresholds provided to compare (12VDC?), so makes this hard to eval) follow this checklist:

6.INTERMITTENT WIRING AND CONNECTORS

1. The conditions necessary to set this DTC are not present at this time.
2. Using the wiring diagrams as a guide, check all related splices and connectors for signs of water intrusion, corrosion, pushed out or bent terminals, and correct pin tension.
3. Wiggle test the wiring harness and connectors while monitoring the scan tool data relative to this circuit.
4. Look for the data to change or for the DTC to reset during the wiggle test.
5. While monitoring the scan tool data relative to this circuit.
6. Look for the data to change other than as expected or for the DTC to reset.


Haven't seen the ITBM schematic provided in any forums I've seen, so here it is:

Cheers,

Ron

 

[PBJ2500CTD]

Friends,

THIS IS FYI, NO RECOMENDED ACTION.

Today, in the FCA OEM Service Manual, I found procedure for symptom I think most, if not all, have with problems with low voltage output on ITBM without DTCs:

C2129-16 BATTERY VOLTAGE - CIRCUIT VOLTAGE BELOW THRESHOLD

MY SUMMARY: If no DTCs set but circuit voltage below threshold (no voltage values or thresholds provided to compare (12VDC?), so makes this hard to eval) follow this checklist:

6.INTERMITTENT WIRING AND CONNECTORS

1. The conditions necessary to set this DTC are not present at this time.
2. Using the wiring diagrams as a guide, check all related splices and connectors for signs of water intrusion, corrosion, pushed out or bent terminals, and correct pin tension.
3. Wiggle test the wiring harness and connectors while monitoring the scan tool data relative to this circuit.
4. Look for the data to change or for the DTC to reset during the wiggle test.
5. While monitoring the scan tool data relative to this circuit.
6. Look for the data to change other than as expected or for the DTC to reset.


Haven't seen the ITBM schematic provided in any forums I've seen, so here it is:

View attachment 113061

Cheers,

Ron

Good info Ron.
Step 6.2. and the schematic should make it fairly easy to trace the issue.
If I were a betting person I would really think there was a fault somewhere in the automated harness manufacturing process in stripping and crimping the wiring connectors creating a high resistance for the current and dropping the total available output voltage/current, or a lousy algorithm in the programming. It's like only a few strands are connected allowing continuity for basic ohm and voltage checks, yet not enough to carry the full current to the intended circuit. Just thinking out loud here.
On EDIT: Just a curiosity item: Anyone check the gauge of their truck's harness brake wire?
All I mentioned above does not consider the positive braking experiences when used with aftermarket brake controllers or another vehicle brand. So that really leaves a strong possibility of something within the Ram brake controllers/connections not functioning properly.

 

[jhenderson]

Good info Ron.
Step 6.2. and the schematic should make it fairly easy to trace the issue.
If I were a betting person I would really think there was a fault somewhere in the automated harness manufacturing process in stripping and crimping the wiring connectors creating a high resistance for the current and dropping the total available output voltage/current, or a lousy algorithm in the programming. It's like only a few strands are connected allowing continuity for basic ohm and voltage checks, yet not enough to carry the full current to the intended circuit. Just thinking out loud here.
On EDIT: Just a curiosity item: Anyone check the gauge of their truck's harness brake wire?
All I mentioned above does not consider the positive braking experiences when used with aftermarket brake controllers or another vehicle brand. So that really leaves a strong possibility of something within the Ram brake controllers/connections not functioning properly.

Why do some of you ignore the fact that the voltage is only low BELOW 30 MPH? Higher road speed can’t change a poor or corroded connection. At least not in this universe.

 

[PBJ2500CTD]

Why do some of you ignore the fact that the voltage is only low BELOW 30 MPH? Higher road speed can’t change a poor or corroded connection. At least not in this universe.

That's why I mentioned "or a lousy algorithm" and "just thinking out loud". There are numerous issues with Ram HD poor braking on many websites. Most have not addressed the speed, other than almost or definitely barreling thru a stop sign. We seem to have more detail oriented people here on TDR who provide good information with tact, more than a I HATE RAM mentality (without supporting substance) of many other sites. I don't have a newer Ram HD to play with, but I do have a lightweight 2019 Ram 1500 Limited I may play with, which is still an apple to an orange comparison. The thing is some people do not experience the reduction in voltage/current while others do. I'd like to see what the live run results are (voltage/current readings) with some of the fancy testers mentioned.

 

[Wiredawg]

Good info Ron.
Step 6.2. and the schematic should make it fairly easy to trace the issue.
If I were a betting person I would really think there was a fault somewhere in the automated harness manufacturing process in stripping and crimping the wiring connectors creating a high resistance for the current and dropping the total available output voltage/current, or a lousy algorithm in the programming. It's like only a few strands are connected allowing continuity for basic ohm and voltage checks, yet not enough to carry the full current to the intended circuit. Just thinking out loud here.
On EDIT: Just a curiosity item: Anyone check the gauge of their truck's harness brake wire?
All I mentioned above does not consider the positive braking experiences when used with aftermarket brake controllers or another vehicle brand. So that really leaves a strong possibility of something within the Ram brake controllers/connections not functioning properly.

Bruce,
I'm inclined to think it's the programming, from all the different sources I've seen. What's hard, is lots don't complain and hard to tell how many work well. Even here on the TDR, there are really only a few identifying problems and about the same reporting good both small numbers.

I hope the dealer techs have more tech data than what's in the FCA Service Manual. They run the checklists, doesn't tell them anything, they try replacing components, and then that doesn't work. Hard to tell if anyone went to arbitration to resolve, don't recall seeing it if they did. And no one has recorded voltages and current on a working one.

Getting my 2017 5500 back tomorrow after a month at the dealer to get factory backup camera to display gridlines. Failed. They replaced the camera, they did factory reset on 8.4Nav system, were discussing replacing that system, and finally Star Tech told dealer it can't be done. I give the dealer high Mark's for trying and they compiled documentation for me to use as I escalate in FCA. I already submitted online complaint to FCA. The point is FCA is selling all this technology with issues and not providing sufficient support to service it.

I'm not sure I'm up to riding 26 miles with my wife to turn her 2019 Ram 1500 for recall adjustable pedals and pick up my 5500. I could plug my tester in and record voltages and current while my wife drives. Nice mixed of traffic, 55mph stop and go about 12 miles interstate.

Maybe I'll have data on a working one tomorrow.

Cheers,

Ron

 

[PBJ2500CTD]

Bruce,
I'm inclined to think it's the programming, from all the different sources I've seen. What's hard, is lots don't complain and hard to tell how many work well. Even here on the TDR, there are really only a few identifying problems and about the same reporting good both small numbers.

I hope the dealer techs have more tech data than what's in the FCA Service Manual. They run the checklists, doesn't tell them anything, they try replacing components, and then that doesn't work. Hard to tell if anyone went to arbitration to resolve, don't recall seeing it if they did. And no one has recorded voltages and current on a working one.

Getting my 2017 5500 back tomorrow after a month at the dealer to get factory backup camera to display gridlines. Failed. They replaced the camera, they did factory reset on 8.4Nav system, were discussing replacing that system, and finally Star Tech told dealer it can't be done. I give the dealer high Mark's for trying and they compiled documentation for me to use as I escalate in FCA. I already submitted online complaint to FCA. The point is FCA is selling all this technology with issues and not providing sufficient support to service it.

I'm not sure I'm up to riding 26 miles with my wife to turn her 2019 Ram 1500 for recall adjustable pedals and pick up my 5500. I could plug my tester in and record voltages and current while my wife drives. Nice mixed of traffic, 55mph stop and go about 12 miles interstate.

Maybe I'll have data on a working one tomorrow.

Cheers,

Ron

Ron,
I agree with the programming theory. Almost need to start at the beginning of this post and annotate each reported event, what mode the event occurred in and attempted remedy. I am assuming the complaint is focused on the EOH mode and the EOE is working OK. Kinda wish I had a problem child here so I could perform detailed analysis with a scope and meters. Also, I wish FCA (and any other electronic stuff) would provide some detailed schematics of the internal box workings so we could follow and analyze the signals...AAANND, a detailed text explaining the controller's function, input and output and what signals are used for what purpose. The problem I see is the issue is, or is not fixed with a change of the controller; is or is not fixed with a re-flash. Heck, a simple system IO table would be better than what is given by FCA in their troubleshooting guide.

 

[jhenderson]

That's why I mentioned "or a lousy algorithm" and "just thinking out loud". There are numerous issues with Ram HD poor braking on many websites. Most have not addressed the speed, other than almost or definitely barreling thru a stop sign. We seem to have more detail oriented people here on TDR who provide good information with tact, more than a I HATE RAM mentality (without supporting substance) of many other sites. I don't have a newer Ram HD to play with, but I do have a lightweight 2019 Ram 1500 Limited I may play with, which is still an apple to an orange comparison. The thing is some people do not experience the reduction in voltage/current while others do. I'd like to see what the live run results are (voltage/current readings) with some of the fancy testers mentioned.

Nobody has come here and said they get full voltage at all speeds. All they say is “ my trailer brakes are fine”. If just one person making that claim verified the voltage I would have a much different opinion. Right now my opinion is they don’t know any better. Very few tow heavy as part of their livelihoods or have had a good controller with which to compare its performance .

 

[Wiredawg]

Nobody has come here and said they get full voltage at all speeds. All they say is “ my trailer brakes are fine”. If just one person making that claim verified the voltage I would have a much different opinion. Right now my opinion is they don’t know any better. Very few tow heavy as part of their livelihoods or have had a good controller with which to compare its performance .

My controller on my 2017 Ram 5500 performs well towing heavy for a total approx. 14K miles at all speeds from 0 to 65 MPH across the western and northwestern US. Now, I need to see if can capture the voltages and currents for those speeds. I'm thinking capturing 15, 30, 45, 55, and 65 MPH. I'm not going to have my wife perform emergency braking, unless we have to as part of normal driving, but will record normal breaking with tester plugged in. I will use the Heavy Electric, Level 10 and use the manual lever to simulate emergency stopping.

Good or do you have a better idea?

Cheers, Ron

 

[PBJ2500CTD]

Nobody has come here and said they get full voltage at all speeds. All they say is “ my trailer brakes are fine”. If just one person making that claim verified the voltage I would have a much different opinion. Right now my opinion is they don’t know any better. Very few tow heavy as part of their livelihoods or have had a good controller with which to compare its performance .

I was referring to "other" Ram forums for some of the voltage claims. I don't feel most of those "other guys" posting know the difference between an electrical volt and a Chevy Volt, or much else besides how to "female dog"-n-moan about Ram trucks being lousy. At least TDR has individuals that dig into the issues and see if they can find what's happening. We pitch in and hash out every angle, some viable and some out in left field. We share and learn and can apply to similar issue, past and future.
As far as speed related voltage, I find it odd to reduce voltage and current deliberately to the degree observed, AND I WILL AGREE WITH YOU that there is a major issue if it is a design or software flaw. In theory there are numerous ways to cause what is seen: wiring, materials, sensors, programming, equipment compatibility, etc. The inconsistent reports on what fixed or did not fix makes it more difficult to pinpoint the underlying cause(s). Testing with varying input criteria and proper equipment will help gather data so we can find out what is happening. I believe FCA should elevate this issue and do some serious evaluations before someone does have a serious accident. For those who are experiencing the braking issue, please submit reports/complaints with your detailed stories to FCA. Maybe include NHTSA...

 

[PBJ2500CTD]

My controller on my 2017 Ram 5500 performs well towing heavy for a total approx. 14K miles at all speeds from 0 to 65 MPH across the western and northwestern US. Now, I need to see if can capture the voltages and currents for those speeds. I'm thinking capturing 15, 30, 45, 55, and 65 MPH. I'm not going to have my wife perform emergency braking, unless we have to as part of normal driving, but will record normal breaking with tester plugged in. I will use the Heavy Electric, Level 10 and use the manual lever to simulate emergency stopping.

Good or do you have a better idea?

Cheers, Ron

Ron,
I think you are right in your plan. Charting the brake controller output at varying speeds and pedal pressures will help set a base line. Of course some heavy braking will also be needed at those speeds to evaluate the delta voltage (sensor response) between normal soft braking and heavy braking. It'll be seat of the pants testing vs. calibrated input levels, but still giving a functional base to work with. IIRC when the manual brake over ride is activated it bypasses the accelerometer input.

 

[EZeis]

Is the aftermarket brake controller connector under the dash powered or does that require a program change? If it's powered, would be a good place to get voltage readings. I could do that on my next trip. Would be easy to use my fluke at that location. My 18 brakes beautifully as I said before. Can give you whiplash at low speeds. As I posted before, my 18 performs like it senses brake pressure. Also at a stop if I vary the brake pedal pressure the gain bar changes.


Earl

 

[Wiredawg]

Is the aftermarket brake controller connector under the dash powered or does that require a program change? If it's powered, would be a good place to get voltage readings. I could do that on my next trip. Would be easy to use my fluke at that location. My 18 brakes beautifully as I said before. Can give you whiplash at low speeds. As I posted before, my 18 performs like it senses brake pressure. Also at a stop if I vary the brake pedal pressure the gain bar changes.


Earl

Earl, I think it feeds the factory controller and could feed an aftermarket one. In the FCA Service Manual on remove install on the ITBM, there is a poor grade photo showing the controller module plugs into a connector at the steering column. Looks like two connectors...standard trailer (blue?) connector and the one that connects the ITBM to the BUS, maybe? BTW, that might be the body control module (BCM) ITBM plugs into.

I hate the FCA Service Manuals now. They no longer have a separate tab for wiring diagrams, so they are buried in troubleshooting sub and sub sub lines. The older CD manuals had active links within the wiring diagrams to drill down. FCA either is going on the cheap and or doesn't want all that info avail.

Thanks for your help. As a team, we may not fix this, but might get enough data for folks with problems to file formal complaints with FCA, government, and civilian agencies.

Wife giving me the stinkeye about going out today, but I can do a couple hours before swelling catches up with me.

Cheers, Ron

 

[PBJ2500CTD]

Here is an excerpt from the 2019 1500 Ram User's Guide. Kind of generic annotations.
What would be identified as an incompatible trailer?
I'll have to check with my youngest son to see what his 2018 Ram Power Wagon's manual says. He has not had any issues towing/braking.

Display Messages


The trailer brake control interacts with the

instrument cluster display. Display messages,

along with a single chime, will be

displayed when a malfunction is determined

in the trailer connection, trailer brake control,

or on the trailer. Refer to “Instrument

Cluster Display” in “Getting To Know Your

Instrument Panel” for further information.

WARNING!


Connecting a trailer that is not compatible


with the ITBM system may result in reduced


or complete loss of trailer braking.

WARNING!

There may be a increase in stopping distance

or trailer instability which could result

in personal injury.

CAUTION!


Connecting a trailer that is not compatible


with the ITBM system may result in reduced


or complete loss of trailer braking.


There may be a increase in stopping distance


or trailer instability which could result


in damage to your vehicle, trailer, or


other property.

NOTE:

• An aftermarket controller may be available

for use with trailers with air or electric-over-hydraulic


trailer brake systems. To determine

the type of brakes on your trailer and

the availability of controllers, check with

your trailer manufacturer or dealer.

• Removal of the ITBM will cause errors and

it may cause damage to the electrical system

and electronic modules of the vehicle.

See your authorized dealer if an aftermarket

module is to be installed.