Factory brake controller

[Wiredawg]

Here is an excerpt from the 2019 1500 Ram User's Guide. Kind of generic annotations.
What would be identified as an incompatible trailer?
I'll have to check with my youngest son to see what his 2018 Ram Power Wagon's manual says. He has not had any issues towing/braking.

Display Messages


The trailer brake control interacts with the

instrument cluster display. Display messages,

along with a single chime, will be

displayed when a malfunction is determined

in the trailer connection, trailer brake control,

or on the trailer. Refer to “Instrument

Cluster Display” in “Getting To Know Your

Instrument Panel” for further information.

WARNING!


Connecting a trailer that is not compatible


with the ITBM system may result in reduced


or complete loss of trailer braking.

WARNING!

There may be a increase in stopping distance

or trailer instability which could result

in personal injury.

CAUTION!


Connecting a trailer that is not compatible


with the ITBM system may result in reduced


or complete loss of trailer braking.


There may be a increase in stopping distance


or trailer instability which could result


in damage to your vehicle, trailer, or


other property.

NOTE:

• An aftermarket controller may be available

for use with trailers with air or electric-over-hydraulic


trailer brake systems. To determine

the type of brakes on your trailer and

the availability of controllers, check with

your trailer manufacturer or dealer.

• Removal of the ITBM will cause errors and

it may cause damage to the electrical system

and electronic modules of the vehicle.

See your authorized dealer if an aftermarket

module is to be installed.

Bruce, I have tester connected to my wifes 2019 1500, controller on HE and 10. sitting it shows 8.5vdc with max manual lever.

More to come.

Ron

 

[PBJ2500CTD]

Bruce, I have tester connected to my wifes 2019 1500, controller on HE and 10. sitting it shows 8.5vdc with max manual lever.

More to come.

Ron

Ah...waiting patiently with bated breath...

 

[EZeis]

Bruce, I have tester connected to my wifes 2019 1500, controller on HE and 10. sitting it shows 8.5vdc with max manual lever.

More to come.

Ron

Engine running I assume for full system voltage?


Earl

 

[Wiredawg]

yes. 1500 passed all tests. eating lunch, but seeing numbers on 5500 low speed mirroring folks with problems. Might be tonight before I plug info on 1500 and 5500 into spreadsheet.

enjoying German food in New Braunfels TX.

Cheers,

Ron

 

[Wiredawg]

Friends,
Gathered data today on both my wife's 2019 Ram 1500 and my 2017 Ram 5500. I believe the test is good as my wife is an aggressive driver, either her foot is on the accelerator or the brake and not too much coasting. The Tekonsha Tester never got hot during the test. Above I reported 5500 numbers were mirroring trouble trucks, but I had controller set on 4 from hauling my 7KLb (empty) dump trailer, to keep from burning tires up. After thinking about it, I checked and changed setting from 4 to 10.

TEST CRITERIA:
According to Tekonsha, test pass required controller set on max (10) and read 10VDC AND 10AMPS using the manual lever on the controller
I conducted the test gathering data both from in-gear manual and in gear brakes
I conducted test on controllers in both trucks set on electric heavy and level 10.
Test course included ~12 miles interstate 75MPH speed limit; ~10 miles 2-lane country road 55MPH and occasional stop lights. and about 3 miles city traffic 30 MPH speed limit

OBSERVATIONS:
The voltage and current numbers appear a little better on the 1500 than the 5500
Traffic was light with ~10 stoplights
Weather was clear and dry
Road grade mostly flat, some short slight grades
The combination of sensors and controls on both trucks kept max voltage to 11.5VDC and max current was 16 amps on the 1500 and 14 Amps on the 5500.

CONCLUSION:
Both trucks passed the tests, meeting the criteria of Tekonsha

Here are the results for your review and comment(s):

So, this is all the testing I'm going to accomplish until I'm fully mobile again. Happy to discuss and compare.

Cheers, Ron

 

[GCroyle]

This is gonna require several reads, looking very interesting.

 

[GCroyle]

enjoying German food in New Braunfels TX.

Cheers,

Ron

Ron,

I bet I might find something to chew on down there, I was really surprised at the German and European influence I was told about on a business trip to Texas years ago, sausages as I remember.

Folks I think this is one of the best threads and community discussion I've seen and enjoyed on TDR in a LONG TIME!

Kudo's and thanks to all of the contributors and a special tip o' the hat to Ron for toughing it out and gathering that data.

Gary

 

[Wiredawg]

Gary,

You betcha. Jager schnitzel, red cabbage, spaetzle noodles and brown mushroom gravy. They do it right here.

Me to on analyzing the results. Ankle swelled really bad and my jailer (wonderful wife) really shortened my leash as a result. I want to spend more time testing parked. I had wrong setting level at the dealer, as mentioned above, and there were folks at the restaurant parking lot rushing us to get out of the way, I don't blame them, and when we got home, had to go right to bed to get swelling down. might be a few days before I'm allowed back outside.

Everyone please do eval and share comments. I believe FCA has made improvements. Kind of think they may have been programming to eliminate lockup of trailer brakes, like antilock brakes on the trucks. I believe they missed the mark and possibly had poor performance as a result. Think about it: it would have been easier to program or just allow full voltage through with the brake pedal and lever. Not justifying, but trying to understand what they were/are trying to do. I think they may be getting close to getting it right.

Not gathering stats or anything, but getting more common to see new Rams window stickers showing the trailer brake controller. After all, towing a heavy trailer is the only reason I bought my Ram 5500. Not a daily driver and gets driven at least once a week to keep everything working.

Cheers, Ron

 

[SnoKing]

I believe FCA has made improvements. Kind of think they may have been programming to eliminate lockup of trailer brakes, like antilock brakes on the trucks. I believe they missed the mark and possibly had poor performance as a result. Think about it: it would have been easier to program or just allow full voltage through with the brake pedal and lever. Not justifying, but trying to understand what they were/are trying to do. I think they may be getting close to getting it right.

Cheers, Ron

Maybe one of the engineers had owned a Prodigy controller at some point and like me and so many others could not find a setting that worked good for out on the road and city driving.

I would add that you guys are over fixated on voltage when it is the pulse width that they vary voltage. Pulse With Modulation does effect the voltage most meter read, however voltage is not the true story, only secondary representation of it.

Somewhere back in the thread I posted a link to a thread that showed the pulse etc. SnoKing

 

[PBJ2500CTD]

You betcha. Jager schnitzel, red cabbage, spaetzle noodles and brown mushroom gravy.

Aw, now you've done it. Wife is drooling and trying to get a trip to Texas in the works just for a yummy schnitzel. Nothing around here can come close to a genuine German schnitzel.

Back to the subject matter:
Here are a couple good reads to stimulate the brain processes with.

https://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/28995276/print/true.cfm

https://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/21182073/gotomsg/21183507.cfm#21183507

I would not leave out the possibility of the towed vehicle having minor brake system issues that would not be readily noticed with the older analog design brake controllers. With the newer controllers a little extra electrical resistance or brake shoe clearance may be enough to noticeable affect the braking function. I have been working on my travel trailer's recent lack of brake response and have found a combination of events to be the cause. In a nutshell, the shop I trusted to do some work for me did not live up to the expectations when I had them inspect and adjust the brakes and repack the wheel bearings. After a 3,000 mile trip and some weak and pulling braking experiences I noticed steaks of a dark color fanning out from the lug nuts. When I got some time I took the drum off of the worst offender. I noticed a very heavy grease film deposited on every part within the brake drum area; yes, shoes included. What I found was at least a half quart of grease crammed into the bearing and spindle hole of the drum assembly, oozing out of the rear seal outer bearing cap and all over the brakes. On top of that, the front left brake magnet and drum were gouged with ruts deeper than the Grand Canyon. The other three looked like they were brand new, other than the heavy "protective" grease coating. I cleaned the grease from the brakes which improved the braking significantly. I found the factory wire connections over time became corroded. The magnets would hum when the brakes were activated but did not have sufficient current to apply adequate braking on three drums. So the front left brake was taking the brunt of the braking event. That explains the WOO-HOO pull with heavy braking...I have rewired and sealed the connections.
I now have a new set of self adjust brake assemblies I will be putting on as soon as the liquid sunshine of the Pacific Northwest subsides.

 

[PBJ2500CTD]

Maybe one of the engineers had owned a Prodigy controller at some point and like me and so many others could not find a setting that worked good for out on the road and city driving.

I would add that you guys are over fixated on voltage when it is the pulse width that they vary voltage. Pulse With Modulation does effect the voltage most meter read, however voltage is not the true story, only secondary representation of it.

Somewhere back in the thread I posted a link to a thread that showed the pulse etc. SnoKing

It all come back to the basic Ohm's law...add some hysteresis with the addition of PWM...a dose of other variables...and a lot of math gets involved.

 

[GCroyle]

Aw, now you've done it. Wife is drooling and trying to get a trip to Texas in the works just for a yummy schnitzel. Nothing around here can come close to a genuine German schnitzel.

I would not leave out the possibility of the towed vehicle having minor brake system issues that would not be readily noticed with the older analog design brake controllers. ...... After a 3,000 mile trip and some weak and pulling braking experiences I noticed steaks of a dark color fanning out from the lug nuts. When I got some time I took the drum off of the worst offender. I noticed a very heavy grease film deposited on every part within the brake drum area; yes, shoes included. What I found was at least a half quart of grease crammed into the bearing and spindle hole of the drum assembly, oozing out of the rear seal outer bearing cap and all over the brakes. On top of that, the front left brake magnet and drum were gouged with ruts deeper than the Grand Canyon. The other three looked like they were brand new, other than the heavy "protective" grease coating. I cleaned the grease from the brakes which improved the braking significantly. I found the factory wire connections over time became corroded. The magnets would hum when the brakes were activated but did not have sufficient current to apply adequate braking on three drums. So the front left brake was taking the brunt of the braking event. That explains the WOO-HOO pull with heavy braking...I have rewired and sealed the connections.
I now have a new set of self adjust brake assemblies I will be putting on as soon as the liquid sunshine of the Pacific Northwest subsides.

Back to basics, it's a PITA but good to have discovered and fixed.

Care to put a good meter on the 7 way brake terminal and trailer chassis ground and report back?

It's lunch time soon here, a good sausage sandwich would be appreciated. We're hitting 90's this afternoon.

 

[Wiredawg]

Aw, now you've done it. Wife is drooling and trying to get a trip to Texas in the works just for a yummy schnitzel. Nothing around here can come close to a genuine German schnitzel.

Back to the subject matter:
Here are a couple good reads to stimulate the brain processes with.

https://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/28995276/print/true.cfm

https://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/21182073/gotomsg/21183507.cfm#21183507

I would not leave out the possibility of the towed vehicle having minor brake system issues that would not be readily noticed with the older analog design brake controllers. With the newer controllers a little extra electrical resistance or brake shoe clearance may be enough to noticeable affect the braking function. I have been working on my travel trailer's recent lack of brake response and have found a combination of events to be the cause. In a nutshell, the shop I trusted to do some work for me did not live up to the expectations when I had them inspect and adjust the brakes and repack the wheel bearings. After a 3,000 mile trip and some weak and pulling braking experiences I noticed steaks of a dark color fanning out from the lug nuts. When I got some time I took the drum off of the worst offender. I noticed a very heavy grease film deposited on every part within the brake drum area; yes, shoes included. What I found was at least a half quart of grease crammed into the bearing and spindle hole of the drum assembly, oozing out of the rear seal outer bearing cap and all over the brakes. On top of that, the front left brake magnet and drum were gouged with ruts deeper than the Grand Canyon. The other three looked like they were brand new, other than the heavy "protective" grease coating. I cleaned the grease from the brakes which improved the braking significantly. I found the factory wire connections over time became corroded. The magnets would hum when the brakes were activated but did not have sufficient current to apply adequate braking on three drums. So the front left brake was taking the brunt of the braking event. That explains the WOO-HOO pull with heavy braking...I have rewired and sealed the connections.
I now have a new set of self adjust brake assemblies I will be putting on as soon as the liquid sunshine of the Pacific Northwest subsides.

In one of my posts on this thread, I mentioned exactly optimizing my new 2013 Heatland Cyclone brakes, worst wiring, factory adjustment, and splices I ever saw. Not going to tell the whole story again, but it was what was wrong. Had Podigy P2.

Just one note on that, wished I would have thought to pull the break away switch to see if it locked the brakes. That's added to my test list now whenever I do annual brake Inspection/ test.

Cheers, Ron

 

[PBJ2500CTD]

In one of my posts on this thread, I mentioned exactly optimizing my new 2013 Heatland Cyclone brakes, worst wiring, factory adjustment, and splices I ever saw. Not going to tell the whole story again, but it was what was wrong. Had Podigy P2.

Just one note on that, wished I would have thought to pull the break away switch to see if it locked the brakes. That's added to my test list now whenever I do annual brake Inspection/ test.

Cheers, Ron

That is a great event to put on the troubleshooting checklist for sure. I pulled it for mine...only the left front plowed gravel. The other three went along for the ride.
One of the points of my post is just because the "expert" say the brakes check good, doesn't necessarily mean they are good. Any anomoly can give different results in any given event. Sorta like "trust but verify"...

 

[SnoKing]

I have for years tested trailer brakes on gravel to see that all four will plow the gravel. SnoKing

 

[PBJ2500CTD]

Back to basics, it's a PITA but good to have discovered and fixed.

Care to put a good meter on the 7 way brake terminal and trailer chassis ground and report back?

It's lunch time soon here, a good sausage sandwich would be appreciated. We're hitting 90's this afternoon.

At the trailer connector with the wiring repair from 2018:
Assuming approximately 3.2 ohms for each brake coil, the total brake resistance would be .8 ohms.
Fluke 87 meter; lead resistance .1 ohm.
Cleaned contact surface tarnish/corrosion off of trailer plug contacts (decreased ~ .2 ohm from original reading through dirty contacts)
Measured through trailer plug brake terminal to ground terminal 1.1 ohm.
Measured through trailer plug brake terminal to trailer chassis ground 1.1 ohm.

Calculated current using 12.0 to 12.7 VDC would vary between 15 to just under 16 amps maximum.

 

[PBJ2500CTD]

I have for years tested trailer brakes on gravel to see that all four will plow the gravel. SnoKing

When I do that I have to work quickly to fill in the canyons in the driveway as my wife sees the crevasses as a place to plant her garden veggies or flower thingies.

 

[GCroyle]

At the trailer connector with the wiring repair from 2018:
Assuming approximately 3.2 ohms for each brake coil, the total brake resistance would be .8 ohms.
Fluke 87 meter; lead resistance .1 ohm.
Cleaned contact surface tarnish/corrosion off of trailer plug contacts (decreased ~ .2 ohm from original reading through dirty contacts)
Measured through trailer plug brake terminal to ground terminal 1.1 ohm.
Measured through trailer plug brake terminal to trailer chassis ground 1.1 ohm.

Calculated current using 12.0 to 12.7 VDC would vary between 15 to just under 16 amps maximum.

I'm liking that resistance value, well done and calculated current draw. This is a bit of a trick question unless you had at least an introduction to Ohms law and parallel resistances. Big thing now is what is actual while in use and drivers view of braking power?

Cause how does 4 things with 3.2 Ohms wind up connected as one and you get 1.1 Ohms?

And one of my go to tools for brake evaluation while in route is my IR temp gun. Gotta have one.

Gary

 

[PBJ2500CTD]

I'm liking that resistance value, well done and calculated current draw. This is a bit of a trick question unless you had at least an introduction to Ohms law and parallel resistances. Big thing now is what is actual while in use and drivers view of braking power?

Cause how does 4 things with 3.2 Ohms wind up connected as one and you get 1.1 Ohms?

And one of my go to tools for brake evaluation while in route is my IR temp gun. Gotta have one.

Gary

The actual figures would be determined by what the brake controller is going to give you as an output for a given input. It would be nice to be able to dissect a schematic for the various models out there, or pick the brain of the design engineers. Things are not like the old Kelsey Hayes models where you tapped into the brake's hydraulic system where the pressure is felt in the controller which moved a transducer to push a multi-contact switch increasing available voltage/current to the brake magnets.
Amen on the IR tester. I use a Fluke IR temp gun not only for brakes, but for radiator, exhaust manifold, and tire sidewall and tread temps...aw, heck, anything that has a temperature, like the wife when she claims she has a temperature. (Yes, dear. As long as you are still speaking, and it isn't ambient, you are still alive.) I noticed in the hot, hot desert on a sunny day, the tire temps could vary 20 degrees from the sunny side tires vs. the shady side tires. Initially I was a bit concerned but deduced that is normal.
A simple analogy of parallel vs. series resistance without all the math involved that some pretty smart people figured out years and years ago would be to think of a bunch of people at a large gathering trying to get to a venue thru the gate(s). If everyone had to go through just one single line it would create a resistance to the flow and take a large amount of time squeezing everyone thru the single line, or a high resistance to squeeze everyone in lined up in series. Now if you open several points of entry, more people can flow thru to the venue in less time, or less resistance thru many parallel entry points.

 

[RVTRKN]

I imagine if I wanted to sell my BrakeSmart I would get a good price for it, but naaaa it aint going to happen.