FASS Dyno Results

[Jetpilot]

Andy,



Sorry you feel like not attending the test. When we spoke last week I thought that you were willing to help me with the evaluation... ... .



Doug

 

[Hohn]

Originally posted by RustyJC

Dang, this is better than a transmission or an Amsoil thread! Oo. Oo. Now, where did I put that popcorn??



Rusty

Indeed!



Flame suit. . check

cool head... check



This was one of the most entertaining, but disappointing threads I have read in a while. Some people just go about things in a way that is provocative and contentious.



While a LOT of useful information came out, what we really have to show for all this typing is this:

-- Urinary Olympics between vendors

-- Urinary Olympics between members

-- Urinary Olympics between members and vendors



Why is it that so many of these posts always degenerate into debating what the meaning of "is" is?



Why is it that people are so quick to discount SOP improvements? Oh yeah, because the person will "always" say they noticed an improvement because the spent the money. NOT. It's a non-sequitir.



Why is it that we discount dyno results? G-tech? Claims?



What it ALL boils down to is this: faith.



You buy this product in PART on faith-- faith that the maker's claims are true.



So how can you test it? You put it on a dyno right? Well, that's ONLY if you have FAITH that the dyno is accurate and consistent.



Whenever someone talks about "proving" something I always have to laugh. Why? Because if you want to, you can ALWAYS find a point of contention that will allow you to discount whatever is it you refuse to believe.



So someone wants to "prove" that either or both of these fuel systems add HP, or that one does more than the other. Let me illustrate how ridiculous the idea of "proof" can be in this case if you want it to be.



1) PROVE to me that the tested truck will produce the same HP again and again

2) PROVE to me that the dyno will accurately measure the HP

3) PROVE to me that any changes in measured HP were due to the tested product ALONE



etc. . etc...



There are simply too many variable to control. You CANNOT accurately conduct a test in the truck and draw any conclusions. One truck may see more hp-- another might not.



It's a classic case of the blind men describing the elephant. The one touching the tusk says elephants are smooth and hard. The one touching the tail says elephants are hairy. The one touching the skin says elephants are dry and rough.



In the end, you have only YOUR judgement and experience to go on. If allow other inputs to influence your decision to purchase (dyno tests, SOP, G-tech, Manufacturer's claims or willingness to provide freebies) then you DO SO ON FAITH ALONE.



At some point, each individual person arrives at the point of sufficiency. Some people need more "proof" to believe something is or is not true. Others need less.



Here's my little firsthand experience: I have bought and installed the Fitch Fuel Catalyst on both my vehicles, gas and diesel. I bought the product for the truck because it worked great on my gasser. The maker claims it works equally well on both gasoline and diesel.



Guess what? On my gasser car, the difference was immediate and distinct. On the truck, I have NO IDEA if the product works or not. It may well have been a $400 mistake! Because I installed the EZ at the same time, I have NOTHING to offer as far as does it help mpg, smoke, etc. . All I can offer is anecdotes (doesn't smoke much even at altitude;i get 19+ even driving really fast w/ WOT passing, etc etc. . ) For some people, my input on the FFC would be enough for them to want to try one out. For others, they need more "proof".



So if you are a "believer" because your personal standard of faith has been met, then don't harass those who are very skeptical and have a higher (if occasionally unreasonable) standard of faith (i mean "proof" )



Likewise, those who remain skeptical should not demean or discount the experiences of those who"believe".



And above all, remember that whether or not something is true doesn't mean people will believe it, no matter how "clear" the "proof". Some people will believe an untruth no matter how much proof there is to the counter. Others will believe the truth with almost no proof at all.



If you are enjoying a certain product that you have placed your faith in, then GREAT! Party on! Don't try to force everyone else to "see the light".



If you remain skeptical, I suggest you examine how realistic are you standards of "proof". If they are reasonable-- Great! Party on. Don't ridicule those who aren't as skeptical... ...



Justin-- a "true believer"

 

[TheWolf]

Man you guys have me confused now I do not uderstand why everyone wanted dyno #'s and now that you are going to see about getting those numbers every one seems to be backing out or upset that some are getting the system to test for free! What is the problem with that? Are they free to the person or just 'on loan' to do testing?



i do not believe Doug or anyone else is doing the test just to get a 'free' product. They are out to test what everybody here has wanted someone to do from the begining. And that is to dyno the system.



I would love to be able to get 'free' stuff from companies myself. What is so wrong about being able to do an evaluation about a product and give an honest opinion and in return they give you the product( they are willing to stand behind their product). I signed up with a club before to have companies donate products for testing , but never got anything to test.



Whether or not the product works I like that a system is being offered to be tested. That means alot to me! It means more than a bunch of talk about a product. If it doesn't perform like described then You haven't really lost anything but some time to install. and if you do not like the product in other ways then you can remove it. However would you be more willing to pay the $500-600 (whatever the price is) and then find out that it doesn't perform as described. How would you feel then? I think you would feel cheated/robbed if you paid for it , and not too bad if it was free.





I think that this isn't really to "test" a product. Most already know that it works (so far, durability in our truck yet to be seen). It is just a test to help determine if it is performing as described for "hp increase"





I just do not want everyone to be getting upset at each other over some HP numbers. The only thing to be questioning is the 'advertising techniques' made by companies to make us spend our hard earned money on their products. Not getting upset at each other here!

 

[TheWolf]

Hohn, some good points , just as others have stated also.



I do not discount what others have said and performs as they state they do, but as you said to SOP meters are not that reliable unless a huge gain in performace is made( like adding a supercharger to gas engine) because people spend their hard earned money on the product they put in and definatly want to 'BELIEVE' it has made a positive change. I do believe most DO see a change and are happy with that. That is great.



But at the same time, I let you ride in my truck to test a product on. lets say it has about 35 inch tires on it. Take a test ride, now let me take it into the garage and do something to the truck and then you take it back out and do another test run. After the second test run you come back ad say WOW! what did you do to the truck. It has so much more power than before..... What has changed because it feels like a lot more power? Nothing! No added horsepower and no changes except for changing tires to the origional 245 series that came on the truck. By SOP it feel like a lot more HP , but in reality it has not changed, it just 'feels' like more power because of smaller tires.



Don't anyone get upset over this, It is just an example of what can happen by people just 'feeling it has more power'. It is NOT to put anyone down that has ever said this!!! It is just as example as to why some want dyno numbers to see what happens. Please correct me if I am wrong.

 

[TheWolf]

SORRY!! am I trying to be a mediator here?



I am trying to stay out of this. But it seems to be FASS users against NON-FASS users. We are all friends here interested in products for our truck, RIGHT?



It seems that FASS users are taking questions and comments PERSONALLY! They spent their money on a product and do not like someone saying that it is not a good product.

I DO NOT think that is what people are trying to say. They are not questioning YOUR purchase or YOUR opinion about the product orwhere you spent your money. They are just trying to get some questions answered from the manufacturers about certain claims about their products.





I will try to keep my BUTT out of this and lock my key board. I DO NOT WANT TO MAKE ANY ENEMIES, I do not know anyone here personally so please don't take offense to anything. sorry if I offend anyone with the statements. I am not trying to.

 

[15w40]

As an engineer, it is said, “One measurement is worth a thousand opinions”. Anyone who spends “large” money on an upgrade for his truck has a bias that the product made a great gain. I think it is human psyche that the improvement works as advertised and it is difficult to be objective. That is why I will wait for the dyno results.



Hohn, not trying to dis you, but wasn’t it you who posted that the fuel line magnet helped mileage in your car a year ago or so? I am sure that these things seem to work because you purchased it thinking it would. I will bet in a laboratory measurement, no gain in mpg could be measured.



The real answer to the HP claim of removing entrained air from the diesel fuel can only be proven with a controlled measurement. And by controlled I mean to say that all aspects of the test have been accounted for. For the HP test these include air and engine temperature, fuel cetane index, air density, and dyno calibration and repeatability. There may be a few other parameters that matter in the HP test but I don’t have a good understanding of what they may be.

 

[Hohn]

No "Dis" taken.



As for the magnetic thingy, I did notice a modest fuel economy increase-- about . 5mpg over 20K miles. I paid NOTHING for the thing (got it free from someone) and even so it only cost like $15 from JC Whitney or something. Does it work? Seems to, but how would I know? All i have is avg mpg sampled perfiodically. No proof. And i have ABSOLUTELY NO vested interest in how the thing performs.



One measurement is worth MORE than athousand opinions. But some opinions are BASED on measurement. So now what?



Another personal maximx of mine-- not all opinions are equal. One supported by logic and evidence wins every time.



There is room for SOP, but that's all they are is SOP. For some people that's enough, so i leave them alone.



Example-- I tried an oil change of the spendy Redline Oil ($30/gal) in my truck. The truck immediately ran smoother and quieter (this was with only 9K on it). Also noticed 2psi more peak boost. I took that to be a reduction in turbo friction. What can I say about Redline oil? I can only say that I liked it, and that the engine seemed to like it. It's NOT oil analysis performed over millions of miles and fleet sampling. It's NOT scientific. Is it enough for me to think the Redline is good oil? Yep. I guess I am a sucker. Is it worth $30 a gallon? Only you can decide for YOU. For me, I am still undecided.



I am very much a hard-science kind of guy. i believe a little skepticism to be good.



Wolf-- the tire case is not quite a valid comparison. But you make your point that there are things BESIDES the engine's actual HP that affect our PERCEPTION of hp.



There are certain kinds of arguments that cannot be settled by scientific means. Some questions are "ought" type of questions, so anecdotal evidence is all you can argue with.



I believe that there is room for anecdotal evidence as a complement to empirical evidence. And-- sometimes the empirical isn't as empirical as people want to think. thus, my previous post.



I will now enact Principle of Wisdom #3: "better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt"

 

[GIT-R-DONE]

Originally posted by RustyJC

Dang, this is better than a transmission or an Amsoil thread! Now, where did I put that popcorn??



Rusty



For some reason I think you better make a second batch of Popcorn... ... ... ... might need it.....





This thread would have never come about if there wasn't a claim of Horsepower on the FASS system. To think we all would be doing something else right now... ... . I will TRY and reserve my comments about the Preporator system until the results from the dyno are out. NOTE: I said TRY... ... ... .



Don

 

[MD500E]

Just for fun this spring I will run my truck on the dyno to see if I gained any hp from the FASS. I suspect I will make a few more ponies because at the 500hp level the stock fuel system was well beyond its limit.



As for those magnet thingies, I have no scientific background, but I am very sure that car manufactures that spend hundreds of millions to improve mileage, efficiency, and emissions would have discovered that a simple magnet on the fuel line gives 15% better mileage.

 

[Hohn]

Agreed. Why wouldn't the spend about $5 per car if it really worked?



Then again, they will chintz something to save $2 per car, because after 6 million cars, it adds up.



jlh

 

[01_HO]

GOT DYNO results?

This last Sat we did a dyno test on my brothers 04 ctd HO 6 speed it has 5in exhaust. I instaled the FASS earlier this week so all had was to connect the lines.



The first 3 runs with stock fuel system were

1. 240hp 438tq

2. 243hp 445tq

3. 244hp 445tq



We connected the lines to the FASS and went for a drive(30min) redynoed 3more times...

1. 250hp 455tq

2. 249hp 456tq

3. 249hp 454tq



Thanks Mustang Muscle for letting us using the dyno jet.

 

[turbo lcc]

makes HP!

Well I guess if I am reading that right. . it looks like the FASS did make a little HP. .

 

[Dkevdog]

Well Great!!! We finally have some dyno number so support Murle's Cattle Dyno numbers! So... ... ... . On a new stock HO, we got an average of 242. 3 HP and 442. 6 Lbs of torque.



After the installation of the FASS, we get an average of 249. 3 HP and 455 Lbs of torque.



A net gain of 7Hp and a tad over 12 Lbs of torque.



Certainly not 35 HP, but a good start, and finally another test besides Don's.



Thanks for providing the feedback. That's all we were wanting in the first place!



Kev

 

[BillGotthelf]

Hohn said "Urinary Olympics" :-laf :-laf :-laf :-laf

I have a FASS system on my 99. I can't say that I get more power with it, I do know that with all my mods I can't pull it below 13psi. I hope it lasts forever also so I can recoup my investment.

 

[GIT-R-DONE]

01 HO, Thanks for your efforts. Glad to see someone is making something. Is there anyway you could post the dyno sheets? The highest HP/TQ before and after? If you cant post it please send me a PM and I'll give you my e-mail address so that you may send it. I am interested in finding out if there was a difference in where the HP/TQ came in at as compared to before the install.



Thanks, Don

 

[01_HO]

Thanks cuda, my brother was in need of a fuel system before I instaled the upgrades, so this was a prime oppertunity for Dyno tests. I really need to thank turbolcc,Keith Livingstone(Forest City Diesel) Keith Summers(Mclain Summers Mid West Diesel)and Brad Ekstam(Owner of FASS system) These guys were on site to make sure the test I performed were correct and fair as I could possible acheive. I hope to have more results after Ive got all the BOMBing done on his truck. Hope I helped a little. Jeremy

 

[turbo lcc]

dyno sheets.

Here is are the dyno sheets you asked for .



Run 1

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[turbo lcc]

RUN 2

Before FASS



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[turbo lcc]

RUN 3

Before FASS



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[turbo lcc]

RUN 4

After FASS



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